Well yes, the ORR letter was just so that they could be seen to be doing something once the government's ruse was found out.
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TPE franchise to move to OLR
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bramling
Veteran Member
The problem there is this strategy only works in a functional company. If you have a company where staff are being treated badly, it’s also quite likely the grievance process will be ineffective.
I don’t write this specifically in relation to TPE, however surely that misery stress and worry is caused by the poor management? I find it unfair to blame staff in that situation, especially when disruption caused by measures such as “working to rule” is essentially because the company has failed to properly resource itself in the first place.
I don't doubt any of this. The question is, where is the formal unionised dispute to get these things put right?
I recall some time ago the unions are furious at TPE suggesting that "unofficial industrial action" was the cause of the issues. So they're not even willing to put their name to that.
It seems that industrial action only comes into play when it's about hourly rate.
Have you got your head buried so far in the sand you can't see what might be considered a "unionised dispute" in evidence this week?
You have presumably missed the ongoing dispute on a national scale in relation to pay and conditions?
Honestly, the attitude on here. It's like a virtual train journey.
Anyway. No, I haven't missed anything. The national dispute is about pay and working hours. If anyone has TPE specific demands which will resolve the current situation and allow the full TPE schedule to run then please, do post them.
I assume they don't exist, however. If they did I reckon the public would have been informed.
And it's the conditions part of it that's the sticking point, the RDG/Dft don't seem to get that a one size fits all offer to over a dozen TOCs, all with massively differing T&Cs will never work!
Well yeah they don't exist because a lot of the problems on TPE aren't fundamentally due to industrial relations. They certainly aren't being helped by the current IR issues to be sure. Not working overtime/rest days and otherwise working to rule and not going above and beyond is clearly having an impact. But those are unlikely to be fixed until the main dispute is settled nationally.
But even if all the staff at TPE were happy as a pig in the proverbial and morale was sky high TPE would still be struggling for the many reasons enumerated above. Lack of traction knowledge, lack of route knowledge, fragile diagrams and a general shortage of bodies all adding up to make the operation vulnerable to collapse. Happy staff would make that easier to manage but it certainly wouldn't fix the issue.
The fix is going to be to rebuild the resilience of ensuring that a guard that works out of Newcastle signs both 802s and 185s and that they sign all relevant diversionary routes and at least as far as Huddersfield. That a diagram for a Liverpool to Hull service doesn't have potentially two or three changes of crew on route meaning that if one person out of the six required is unavailable and can't be covered that potentially that entire out and back service ends up cancelled. Etc etc.
It isn't as easy as just saying "oh the staff are intransigent, don't want to work and should just shut up and get on with it". That still wouldn't deliver the schedule reliably when the operation has been structured by management and, increasingly, the DfT to be so fragile to begin with.
I think everyone on here would agree that FG are far from perfect and many problems at TPE are self inflicted.
Looking at this thread you’d think that the two unions have been totally squeaky clean throughout.
When pressed on the news even the ASLEF GS couldn’t (wouldn’t) say how TPE have abrogated Ts and Cs. The reps can’t even say so at branch.
No mention of FB posts saying ‘lets stop letting trainees and route learners in the cab’, how does that help the poor guy picking up the 0200 jobs on spare?
No mention of the blurring of lines, by some, between contracted and non contracted overtime.
It’s been run badly and now they’re gone. But at the end of the day while you’ve still got the same reps who hardly turn a wheel themselves and gloat about how many days they’ve banked, what’s going to change?
Looking at this thread you’d think that the two unions have been totally squeaky clean throughout.
When pressed on the news even the ASLEF GS couldn’t (wouldn’t) say how TPE have abrogated Ts and Cs. The reps can’t even say so at branch.
No mention of FB posts saying ‘lets stop letting trainees and route learners in the cab’, how does that help the poor guy picking up the 0200 jobs on spare?
No mention of the blurring of lines, by some, between contracted and non contracted overtime.
It’s been run badly and now they’re gone. But at the end of the day while you’ve still got the same reps who hardly turn a wheel themselves and gloat about how many days they’ve banked, what’s going to change?
mike57
Established Member
Looking at this thread actually makes sad reading...
I have been a regular user of TPE and its predecesors since the early 1980s
Up until 2018 the service wasn't too bad, we had seen service improvements over the years, loco hauled stock replaced with a more frequent service run by Class 158s, which in turn were replaced by 185s. OK so more capacity was needed but taking the period from around 2010 - 2018 I could plan a journey with reasonable confidence that I would arrive on time or close to it most of the time, with overcrowding being the only real issue.
Fast forward 5 years from 2018, which is when things went wrong and have stayed wrong ever since, we now have the worst service within my memory, in spite of new rolling stock and no doubt higher subsidies (dont have specific figures, but overall rail subsidies have nearly doubled). Front line staff morale is at an all time low.
In any other industry a company offering the level of service TPE have offered would be bankrupt and wound up well before 5 years.
My view is that DfT, ORR, TPE, Unions all have contributed to this situation. None are blameless.
My own experience as a passenger is front line staff have tried to remain professional, but have been hamstrung by the decisions of those further up the food chain. This is backed by a couple of acquaintances who used to work for TPE, and several posters in this thread.
What I find more worrying is that no one can see a way out of the current mess, and if that message reaches the treasury I can see there being pressure to massively reduce support.
And the big question - How can something that used to work OK fail so miserably.
I have been a regular user of TPE and its predecesors since the early 1980s
Up until 2018 the service wasn't too bad, we had seen service improvements over the years, loco hauled stock replaced with a more frequent service run by Class 158s, which in turn were replaced by 185s. OK so more capacity was needed but taking the period from around 2010 - 2018 I could plan a journey with reasonable confidence that I would arrive on time or close to it most of the time, with overcrowding being the only real issue.
Fast forward 5 years from 2018, which is when things went wrong and have stayed wrong ever since, we now have the worst service within my memory, in spite of new rolling stock and no doubt higher subsidies (dont have specific figures, but overall rail subsidies have nearly doubled). Front line staff morale is at an all time low.
In any other industry a company offering the level of service TPE have offered would be bankrupt and wound up well before 5 years.
My view is that DfT, ORR, TPE, Unions all have contributed to this situation. None are blameless.
My own experience as a passenger is front line staff have tried to remain professional, but have been hamstrung by the decisions of those further up the food chain. This is backed by a couple of acquaintances who used to work for TPE, and several posters in this thread.
What I find more worrying is that no one can see a way out of the current mess, and if that message reaches the treasury I can see there being pressure to massively reduce support.
And the big question - How can something that used to work OK fail so miserably.
"Unofficial industrial action" would be illegal and it hasn't happened. Staff have the right not to come in on their days off, you know. If a company is heavily reliant upon overtime to fulfil its basic obligations then it is asking for trouble.
I don't actually remember TPE using the phrase, though Avanti did.
Only to those who have spent the last year living at the bottom of a pond. For those of us who have been paying attention, it is quite clear that work/life balance is a key issue, with the government wanting staff to move spare turns by 12hrs (or even to completely different days). How can you plan your family life on that basis? The government even wants to ban rolling rest day patterns. Why?
CAF397
Member
I'm not in favour of this, but the only workaround is a heavily reduced timetable and emergency rostering. Make everyone spare at the depots, and roster daily.
2 hourly Manchester Airport-Edinburgh
2 hourly or worse Preston-Glasgow
Hourly Liverpool-Newcastle, hourly Manchester Picc-York stoppers hourly
Leeds-Hull hourly
York-Scarborough hourly.
Not sure what to do with the South route, might just be able to resource it hourly Liverpool-Cleethorpes.
Places like Airport, Liverpool and diversions would need managing.
Where services are 185s then run them as pairs.
Certainly not great, but it's the passengers that need certainty.
What resources get freed up can use for traction and route learning. Run this for 3 months and review.
The Covid reduced timetable was horrible, and boring if you didn't sign anything else, but its affecting mental health of many traincrew with the current toxic work environment.
Drivers and guards are getting the blame, even within internal communications. There is no relationship between control and the traincrew, that is seriously broken. No such thing as 'quick shunts' or 'take it to the depot and we'll pay you a few hours overtime'.
The company is broken, seriously broken. A new MD means nothing unless a major clearout from top to bottom occurs.
2 hourly Manchester Airport-Edinburgh
2 hourly or worse Preston-Glasgow
Hourly Liverpool-Newcastle, hourly Manchester Picc-York stoppers hourly
Leeds-Hull hourly
York-Scarborough hourly.
Not sure what to do with the South route, might just be able to resource it hourly Liverpool-Cleethorpes.
Places like Airport, Liverpool and diversions would need managing.
Where services are 185s then run them as pairs.
Certainly not great, but it's the passengers that need certainty.
What resources get freed up can use for traction and route learning. Run this for 3 months and review.
The Covid reduced timetable was horrible, and boring if you didn't sign anything else, but its affecting mental health of many traincrew with the current toxic work environment.
Drivers and guards are getting the blame, even within internal communications. There is no relationship between control and the traincrew, that is seriously broken. No such thing as 'quick shunts' or 'take it to the depot and we'll pay you a few hours overtime'.
The company is broken, seriously broken. A new MD means nothing unless a major clearout from top to bottom occurs.
Bantamzen
Established Member
I think this is a reasonably fair assessment of the situation. And quite honestly as things stand the only way this will get resolved is to lock all parties in a room and not let them out until a resolution is agreed. Heads all round need banging togther.
The idea of an emergency timetable has been mooted before, but the question is what happens if, or more likely when that starts to fall over? There isn't much scope to increase capacity on services, the infrastructure doesn't allow for it. So reducing services further might make it look like there will be more certainty, but that's no use for commuters rocking up to the stations only to find all trains bursting already.
The only way to solve at least some of TPEs problems is to resolve the dispute.
LYuen
Member
Can some of the services be re-tendered or reassigned to other ToCs?
Like let Northern and TPE each run a fast Liverpool - Manchester fast service an hour to make up 2tph
Northern and EMR to takeover all services between Sheffield to Manchester (or Liverpool)
I think this will be better than listing and cancelling the service in daily basis or removing the service altogether?
Bantamzen
Established Member
What would make more sense would be to give the Leeds-Huddersfield & Huddersfield-Manchester services back to Northern (allowing for them to have enough crew & stock of course). That would at least give the core section alternatives for when TPE go into meltdown.
CAF397
Member
That's the only way to stop the current mess, but we don't know how long that will take.
Passengers have had over 18 months and counting of this fiasco, and they need something better now they can rely on.
Bantamzen
Established Member
It will take as long as all parties concerned want it to.
Given I get the same internal communications, I don’t have a clue what this is referring to. Proof?
HamworthyGoods
Established Member
- Joined
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You’re missing Northallerton to Middlesborough/Saltburn. Need something to serve Yarm and also not loose route knowledge.
Your posts about this subject really always reflect my own views as a passenger down the years.
The answer to your question? The service ran well because it was based on tried and tested methods for running a railway that had been around for decades.
From May 2018 on those running the show decided that they somehow knew better than those who had run the service with quiet efficiency down the years. The results, of course, have been calamitous.
RHolmes
Member
- Joined
- 19 Jul 2019
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- 567
It really isn’t wise to chop routes like this for reliability.
What you’re then left with is traincrew that either spend more time travelling passenger or in a taxi to work a service (as per Covid). This results in a ‘stagnation’ of route competency and knowledge, as well as diversions.
Realistically you can only chop routes like Leeds to Hull if you have adequate and regular diagrams for the three depots that run them, otherwise things like leave or sickness can mean that traincrew quickly loose competency. It also means that Piccadilly and Airport depot spend most of their working hours either travelling passenger or in a taxi (or a combination of both) just to keep it on their cards. They become increasingly LESS productive leading to further problems as an Airport conductor might spend 4 hours travelling to and from their Hull service to spend 2 hours productivity working a train.
The other option is you could have them work a Leeds to Manchester service in each direction, but you’re then taking this work from other depots such as Liverpool and York, and then they start to lose competency… and the cycle continues.
You're not their employer, it's nothing to do with you.
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Don't know about the Leeds - Huddersfield but no Northern depots have crew that have knowledge over Huddersfield - Manchester anymore so tbh that would take some time to fix and whilst things aren't anywhere near as bad as TPE in the west of Northern I don't think there is that much slack for this to be feasible .
Bantamzen
Established Member
To be fair they are customers, as are we all. And some of us rely on the railways to get to work to earn money, so if it suddenly becomes very difficult to do so it kind of does become the business of passengers.
As I said above, this would be assuming that staff and stock were available, which would obviously include route learning.
whoosh
Established Member
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Krokodil said:
Wow! I would estimate that to be about 5% of the drivers they have? (Or had, should i say!)
Does that sound about right?
CAF397
Member
568 drivers (including trainees) who are part of ASLEF for TPE.
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modernrail
Member
- Joined
- 26 Jul 2015
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- 1,055
It is incredibly sad. It seems like nobody can really be bothered to work together to sort out the service that runs the route of the world’s first ever intercity line and goes right past the world’s first ever passenger railway. It should be one of our crown jewels, not the absolute basket case it has been allowed to become, my multiple actors in the show. Almost all railways in the world operate better than TP - just think about how crazy that is for a moment.
It leaves the whole region looking like a shell of a place economically and leaves customers in a shocking position, especially those who really rely on trains. I don’t doubt it also leaves staff members who want desperately to turn up to work and run a great service incredibly frustrated as well.
I have no idea what the solutions are beyond what has already been said but it sounds like all concerned on decision making need a mix of therapy and basic railway logistics and IR training.
It does, but our beef should be with how the railway is being run. In other words if the local coffee shop staff go on strike, question the quality and intent of the management not the staff.
ScottGallagher
Member
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Would the ex ex MD of TPE not have been persuaded by anyone below them at the time that these out of the box crew arrangements were sound? To change something so fundamentally is a collective decision surely? , not by someone on their own?
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