TPE Liverpool to Cleethopes direct service: Thoughts and suggestions.

[cle]

A lot of places will lose their Airport services, but that obligation has really played a big part in this mess.

Airport workers (likely to live in Greater Mancs) should be a much higher priority in terms of frequent airport services than occasional travellers; spread all over the place, infrequent, low spending.

Incoming tourists should be catered for (inbound spending) over outbound bucket & spade - hence the Lakes service. And inbound business, covered by most services - good PR for the city especially with Europeans and Asians who appreciate such things more. Same for intl students, big business.

Liverpool, Warrington and to a lesser degree Sheffield (very circuitous) are inconvenienced by this, but see benefits in many other ways - and for more regular journeys. Most British business travellers begin journeys from home, not office/city centre, and likely drive or cab to early flights. So any noise is just that.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Ok. But what will people from Warrington Central and Birchwood do if they want to go to Manchester Airport now?

Same question to people of Doncaster, Sheffield, Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Grimsby and Cleethorpes. Answer: Change at Piccadilly

 

[Fokx]

Why then have I seen a 185 arriving in Manchester Piccadilly platform 1 and not ECS

Huddersfield and Hull use platform 1.

Cleethorpes trains sometimes use 1 if a set swap is taking place and the unit goes back to Ardwick

The Cleethorpes currently backs out again and goes to the Airport. Or it did pre Covid. The MTRC document described this move as "operationally challenging" hence its removal in Option C

Post-covid only two trains a day perform this operation for route retention purposes of Sheffield drivers

One of these is the 5.08 from Piccadilly to the airport and the 21.18 comes from the Airport

 

[Glenn1969]

I would send 2tph Airport services to Rochdale, Bolton, Marple and Liverpool. To give all corridors a connection. Faraway places like Scotland and Cleethorpes should change at Piccadilly

 

[Martin23230]

A lot of places will lose their Airport services, but that obligation has really played a big part in this mess.

Airport workers (likely to live in Greater Mancs) should be a much higher priority in terms of frequent airport services than occasional travellers; spread all over the place, infrequent, low spending.

Incoming tourists should be catered for (inbound spending) over outbound bucket & spade - hence the Lakes service. And inbound business, covered by most services - good PR for the city especially with Europeans and Asians who appreciate such things more. Same for intl students, big business.

Liverpool, Warrington and to a lesser degree Sheffield (very circuitous) are inconvenienced by this, but see benefits in many other ways - and for more regular journeys. Most British business travellers begin journeys from home, not office/city centre, and likely drive or cab to early flights. So any noise is just that.

You must admit though it does seem absurd that probably the two nearest large urban areas to Manchester Airport (outside of Manchester itself), Merseyside and South Yorkshire, are having their direct service withdrawn while places as far off as Edinburgh and Glasgow keep theirs? Windermere gets an airport connection but Warrington doesn't? I don't quite see your PR point - Manchester doesn't really gain much in that respect where as Liverpool and Sheffield losing their direct trains to the nearest major international airport surely harms their reputation amongst business travellers, tourists, international students etc.

I understand there are good reasons for why in particular the Airport-Cleethorpes service was challenging at Piccadilly, but then that just underlines how badly set up the lines south of Manchester are for orbital connections. It's mad that a service coming from the Hope Valley has to go all the way into central Manchester just to go back down south again. I know there's some noise about a link giving Stockport a direct connection to the Airport, hopefully that would enable direct services from Sheffield by reversing there.

 

[LowLevel]

I don’t really see what the operational benefit of this would actually be apart from EMR having a depot at Nottingham. Cleethorpes is hardly EMR territory with them planned to only operate one hourly service from there on the Barton Line in the near future. I’d argue the opposite that Liverpool isn’t EMR territory and Manchester to Liverpool semi-fasts should be all TPE

Heavy maintenance of the 185’s is also based largely at Manchester (and York) and even if some of the class 185’s were to pass to EMR for the Nottingham service, I can’t imagine them moving to be stored with the 360’s, I could see them being stabled at stations or sidings overnight and rotated to Ardwick for refuelling, tanking and maintenance

Ideally you'd take advantage of the brave new world and lose the daft train crew division between companies.

EMR have approx 100 drivers (at Nottingham) and nearly 150 guards (at Nottingham and Derby) who work Nottingham to Liverpool.

If TPE Liverpool crews were to work some early trains in the opposite direction and late trains back it would all work rather nicely.

Instead what is going to happen is there will mostly likely shortly be EMR crews based in the North West at new depots replicating what is already there.

 

[JonathanH]

Manchester doesn't really gain much in that respect where as Liverpool and Sheffield losing their direct trains to the nearest major international airport surely harms their business reputation.

Does this really matter? How much international business is there in Liverpool or Sheffield that involves flying into Manchester and a relatively slow train ride?

It's mad that a service coming from the Hope Valley has to go all the way into central Manchester just to go back down south again.

It really isn't.

More passengers on the train want to go to the centre of Manchester than the Airport. I note that services which reverse at a congested station aren't very helpful in planning as both moves into and out the station have to happen in a relatively tight timeframe.

I know there's some noise about a link giving Stockport a direct connection to the Airport, hopefully that would enable direct services from Sheffield by reversing there.

Is there? I don't see a large market for a train from Sheffield reversing at Stockport and missing out Manchester.

 

[Martin23230]

Does this really matter? How much international business is there in Liverpool or Sheffield that involves flying into Manchester and a relatively slow train ride?

To be fair, I only made that point in reply to @cle's post saying that the changes will be good PR for business people and international students visiting Manchester. I'm not saying that this is a major effect, but if you're a business in Liverpool or Sheffield being able to advertise direct trains to the airport will be a point in their favour. Little things like that can make the difference when it comes to deciding where to host a business conference or where a Chinese student choses to go to university.

Again I'm not saying this is enough to not make the changes outlined in the report, I'm well aware that I'm biased being someone from Sheffield who often flew out of MAN (in pre-COVID times). I don't really have a problem changing at Piccadilly on the way out, but the psychological effect of coming off a long day of transatlantic travelling and being able to get a seat on a direct service home is not to be underestimated! Clearly I'm in the minority though, and hopefully business travel in that vein will be reducing over the next few decades anyway.

It really isn't.

More passengers on the train want to go to the centre of Manchester than the Airport. I note that services which reverse at a congested station aren't very helpful in planning as both moves into and out the station have to happen in a relatively tight timeframe.

When I say it's absurd there's no link I mean more from a geographical point of view, I have no idea about customer demand or anything like that. For the record I also think it's absurd that there's no western or southern rail access from Heathrow - it's the sort of thing that if you were building it from scratch you'd have no reason not to put in.

Is there? I don't see a large market for a train from Sheffield reversing at Stockport and missing out Manchester.

You're probably right, wishfull thinking on my behalf.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why then have I seen a 185 arriving in Manchester Piccadilly platform 1 and not ECS

North TPE. I'd figure a diversion for whatever reason - if a service is running very late I believe it's not unusual to send it into Picc main trainshed instead of via Ordsall to get the time back, I've certainly been at Vic when it has been announced that that has happened.

It appears you can get from 1 and 2 to the Stockport lines but it wouldn't be done unless things had gone seriously badly wrong, as on a Cleethorpes-Airport that would mean crossing the formation twice.

Does Liverpool retain an Airport service with the Chat Moss stopper at least off peak?.

No, Liverpool loses it entirely, that is to terminate at Oxford Road if I recall. But it's not a hard change, 4tph same platform.

Liverpool also has an airport with a wide range of European destinations. It used to be the case that Speke was just a holiday charter airport, but then came sleasyJet and Eireflop, and now it's got far more choice.

Overall this is good for Liverpool - 4 decent high capacity express services per hour, 2 of them electric, two to each side of Manchester. Possibly the best it's ever had?

 

[geoffk]

What does everyone think about serving the smaller stations west of Manchester? Splitting the stoppers at Warrington Central and running each end only hourly will benefit those stations which now only get a two-hourly service, i.e. Trafford Park, Humphrey Park, Chassen Road and Glazebrook. Between them the expresses should serve Urmston, Irlam, Birchwood, Warrington West and Widnes to give two trains an hour, not necessarily all five with the same train. Flixton, Padgate, Halewood and Hunts Cross are only hourly now, but Hough Green, West Allerton and Mossley Hill are half-hourly and Merseytravel will probably want to retain that frequency.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What does everyone think about serving the smaller stations west of Manchester? Splitting the stoppers at Warrington Central and running each end only hourly will benefit those stations which now only get a two-hourly service, i.e. Trafford Park, Humphrey Park, Chassen Road and Glazebrook. Between them the expresses should serve Urmston, Irlam, Birchwood, Warrington West and Widnes to give two trains an hour, not necessarily all five with the same train. Flixton, Padgate, Halewood and Hunts Cross are only hourly now, but Hough Green, West Allerton and Mossley Hill are half-hourly and Merseytravel will probably want to retain that frequency.

It's basically close to the same as the pre 1998 service (apart from that that had a semifast Liverpool-Airport Pacer, and to fit it in the Warrington local only went as far as Irlam every 2 hours), and that worked fine. I can't really see much of an issue with it. It would be nice to see 2tph on the Manchester side, but realistically that'll have to wait for NPR.

 

[Greybeard33]

Flixton, Padgate, Halewood and Hunts Cross are only hourly now, but Hough Green, West Allerton and Mossley Hill are half-hourly and Merseytravel will probably want to retain that frequency.

Options B and C have two stopping trains per hour between Warrington Central and Lime Street, both peak and off peak. So Hough Green, West Allerton and Mossley Hill would retain their half hourly frequency, and Halewood and Hunts Cross would probably be upgraded to half hourly too.

 

[Kite159]

Good way to potentially introduce more delays on the Castlefield corridor with another long distance service which has a few points along the way where it can end up being delayed, meaning it will miss it's slot and potentially delaying the stopper.

Trains from Cleethorpes/Nottingham should terminate at Piccadilly.

 

[Killingworth]

I'm afraid this consultation is too late, or too early! Too late to resolve the delays many thousands were suffering until last March. Today trains are still being delayed but very few passengers are involved. By May 2021 a different market will exist and some of the currently pruned services may not be restored.

I'd agree that C is the preferred of the three options looked at from Sheffield now. However having used the current TPE and EMR services and watched regular performance of both I'd note that TPE tend to be more reliable eastbound from Manchester and EMR westbound from Sheffield.

TPE can get delayed at Grimsby, Scunthorpe, Doncaster, Meadowhall and Sheffield. That can't change with these proposals - beware.

EMR can get delayed from Liverpool before reaching Castlefield. It wasn't long ago that I heard a senior EMT officer explain how this route was responsible for a larger proportion of delays than any other operated by the company. It remains to be seen if these proposals will work in practice as well as they do in theory.

If they do the Liverpool - Cleethorpes makes partial sense. A number used to commute from Sheffield to Oxford Road for the universities, however they're using Zoom and Teams most of the time now.

If the proposals are introduced and don't work we'll end up with two unreliable eastbound services out of Piccadilly for Sheffield and beyond. In which case it would have been better to continue the Liverpool service to the Airport and terminate the Cleethorpes at Piccadilly.

If the Cleethorpes gets delayed east of the Pennines it's going to end up very late in Liverpool. If it's delayed out of Liverpool it will take for ever to reach Cleethorpes.

Liverpool - Norwich/Nottingham has an option to take the Dore curve to save maybe 20 minutes in either direction. The Cleethorpes has no such recovery option.

As a user between Sheffield and Manchester if all else fails I have an option in the slower Northern stopper. Many already use that for the airport, especially when it's priced lower than the others. That's not good for those east of Sheffield.

The through airport service from Sheffield is an issue for a small number of ground staff and cabin crew. It's convenient for a small number of business travellers and holidaymakers. Changing on Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly is never going to be pleasant so a shuttle to the airport should be as frequent as possible - and all services need to be reliable for connections. If they are that's a reasonable change.

Unfortunately I have doubts about Cleethorpes - Liverpool being reliable. That's not so much about Castlefield but the ability of such a service to present at Piccadilly to pick up its allocated path in both directions. That's not primarily a Manchester issue but at both ends feeding in.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I have submitted to the recovery task force that if paths exist at peak time for a half-hourly Liverpool to Warrington and half-hourly Warrington to Manchester Oxford Road (albeit split) then it should be half-hourly all day. Modal shift etc.

Which leads me to my next point, which is total standardisation of paths. The CLC fast trains should leave Lime Street at the same time, 30 minutes apart, all day. Same in reverse.

If all trains call at South Parkway and Warrington Ctl (then Oxford Rd), then one should be Urmston and Hunts Cross, the other Birchwood and Widnes (or swap to be Urmston / Widnes and Birchwood / Hunts Cross). Only with total path standardisation can we get more reliable services, and better ones for customers.

 

[D365]

Warrington and Sheffield will both lose 1tph to the Airport.

Which would be a shame. As other comments suggest, a replacement airport shuttle will need to add up to 6tph, ideally.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they do the Liverpool - Cleethorpes makes partial sense. A number used to commute from Sheffield to Oxford Road for the universities, however they're using Zoom and Teams most of the time now.

In-person university teaching is one of the most likely things to return. If everything moves to distance learning, the whole market shifts, and the universities won't let that happen.

If all trains call at South Parkway and Warrington Ctl (then Oxford Rd), then one should be Urmston and Hunts Cross, the other Birchwood and Widnes (or swap to be Urmston / Widnes and Birchwood / Hunts Cross). Only with total path standardisation can we get more reliable services, and better ones for customers.

I've mentioned the 1997 timetable a fair bit, and that did that as well - the TPE did Warrington C and Birchwood, and the then-Central Trains did Widnes and Warrington C, and the timings at both ends were pure clockface half hourly - xx10/40 off Oxford Road westbound and xx22/52 off Lime St, though the 0749 had a couple of extra stops (did both Widnes and Birchwood and I think Urmston) so went a bit earlier. That I remember this some 24 years on is testament to how effective that approach is - you just have to remember one number and the frequency.

The only real problem with that timetable was the Norwich (and it mostly was the Norwich) arriving late at Oxford Road westbound, but they used to do sensible things like hold the stopper until it got there, which helped.

 

[tetudo boy]

Does Liverpool retain an Airport service with the Chat Moss stopper at least off peak?.

They will instead terminate at Oxford Road.

Unfortunately I have doubts about Cleethorpes - Liverpool being reliable. That's not so much about Castlefield but the ability of such a service to present at Piccadilly to pick up its allocated path in both directions. That's not primarily a Manchester issue but at both ends feeding in.

I think what the government are trying to say is that it was never a good idea to run that many TPE services or any other TOC services except Northern to Airport, a problem which a lot of us think needs to be fixed. I'm fine with this service exists, but I have my doubts about the connecting platforms at 13 and 14 unless Network Rail has some sort of plan to refurbish the platforms to be more suitable for connections.

 

[Greybeard33]

Good way to potentially introduce more delays on the Castlefield corridor with another long distance service which has a few points along the way where it can end up being delayed, meaning it will miss it's slot and potentially delaying the stopper.

Trains from Cleethorpes/Nottingham should terminate at Piccadilly.

The stoppers are being split at Warrington. That means the westbound stopper will no longer have to leave Oxford Road immediately after the long distance service. It can be timed to allow for a few minutes delay in the arrival from Cleethorpes or Nottingham.

Equally a late running stopper will be less likely to delay the following long distance service. It can be timed to arrive at Warrington or Oxford Road well in advance, not immediately before.

This recast should improve the punctuality performance of both the stoppers and the semi-fasts on the CLC line.

Which would be a shame. As other comments suggest, a replacement airport shuttle will need to add up to 6tph, ideally.

Option C gives 6tph off peak between Piccadilly Platforms 13/14 and the Airport: 1 Redcar, 1 Newcastle, 1 Scotland, 1 Cumbria and 2 Blackpool. One less in the peaks - the Newcastle terminates at Victoria. These all offer a cross/same platform change from Sheffield/Liverpool.

Additionally there would be 2tph stoppers to Crewe via the Airport from the Piccadilly main shed, probably Platform 11 or 12.

I have submitted to the recovery task force that if paths exist at peak time for a half-hourly Liverpool to Warrington and half-hourly Warrington to Manchester Oxford Road (albeit split) then it should be half-hourly all day. Modal shift etc.

The consultation document says that a key feature of all the options is:

A reduction in frequency on the Castlefield Corridor -the key ‘Congested Infrastructure’ constraint – to a maximum of 12 trains per hour each way off-peak, which is assessed to be the reliable train service limit of the corridor.

Option C has 12tph off peak, 13tph peak, so presumably another service would have to be sacrificed if the Warrington - Oxford Road stopper were half hourly off peak.

But Option B has only 11tph off peak, 13tph peak, so it is not clear why the stopper could not be half hourly in this option.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The stoppers are being split at Warrington. That means the westbound stopper will no longer have to leave Oxford Road immediately after the long distance service. It can be timed to allow for a few minutes delay in the arrival from Cleethorpes or Nottingham.

Equally a late running stopper will be less likely to delay the following long distance service. It can be timed to arrive at Warrington or Oxford Road well in advance, not immediately before.

This recast should improve the punctuality performance of both the stoppers and the semi-fasts on the CLC line.


Option C gives 6tph off peak between Piccadilly Platforms 13/14 and the Airport: 1 Redcar, 1 Newcastle, 1 Scotland, 1 Cumbria and 2 Blackpool. One less in the peaks - the Newcastle terminates at Victoria. These all offer a cross/same platform change from Sheffield/Liverpool.

Additionally there would be 2tph stoppers to Crewe via the Airport from the Piccadilly main shed, probably Platform 11 or 12.


The consultation document says that a key feature of all the options is:

Option C has 12tph off peak, 13tph peak, so presumably another service would have to be sacrificed if the Warrington - Oxford Road stopper were half hourly off peak.

But Option B has only 11tph off peak, 13tph peak, so it is not clear why the stopper could not be half hourly in this option.

Well one has to ask, but I thought I saw reference to the Warrington Ctl <> Oxford Rd stopper being only hourly at off-peak times. Would be a great shame.

 

[Ianno87]

Well one has to ask, but I thought I saw reference to the Warrington Ctl <> Oxford Rd stopper being only hourly at off-peak times. Would be a great shame.

Isn't the logic that that is better for the ststions it serves, as those that are served two-hourly can become hourly. Whilst stops at busier stations are maintained by adding calls in the "fast" service.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Isn't the logic that that is better for the ststions it serves, as those that are served two-hourly can become hourly. Whilst stops at busier stations are maintained by adding calls in the "fast" service.

Whilst I sort of get it, the problem is that it decelerates what will then be the key link between Liverpool and Castlefield, for Airport.

Those services need to be as fast as possible, hence much more limited stops to only ‘scoop up’ extra demand at the 4 busiest stops (Urmston, Birchwood, Widnes, Hunts Cross).

If the stopper runs half-hourly it will he just as attractive from Urmston; or for example from Widnes the other way.

 

[Greybeard33]

Well one has to ask, but I thought I saw reference to the Warrington Ctl <> Oxford Rd stopper being only hourly at off-peak times. Would be a great shame.

Yes, the Warrington - Oxford Road stopper would be hourly off peak while the Warrington - Lime Street would remain half hourly.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Yes, the Warrington - Oxford Road stopper would be hourly off peak while the Warrington - Lime Street would remain half hourly.

Such a shame really - there’s no pathing constraints in theory against it. The only possibility I could possibly see relates to provision of off-peak freight paths from Trafford Park, but I’m not sure that can’t be accommodated within a 12tph off-peak frequency at least once an hour as you just ask the Castlefield stuff to run around every 3.75-4 mins, causing a 7 minute clean gap for a freight path. Off-peak, a gap every 4 mins (bare in mind a half-hourly ‘gap’ at Oxford Road as there’s terminators), would allow a 2 minute minimum stop at Oxford Rd and Piccadilly for passenger trains. That seems alright to me?

 

[Greybeard33]

Such a shame really - there’s no pathing constraints in theory against it. The only possibility I could possibly see relates to provision of off-peak freight paths from Trafford Park, but I’m not sure that can’t be accommodated within a 12tph off-peak frequency at least once an hour as you just ask the Castlefield stuff to run around every 3.75-4 mins, causing a 7 minute clean gap for a freight path. Off-peak, a gap every 4 mins (bare in mind a half-hourly ‘gap’ at Oxford Road as there’s terminators), would allow a 2 minute minimum stop at Oxford Rd and Piccadilly for passenger trains. That seems alright to me?

The freight paths are the same peak and off peak - not relevant.

The point is that the Task Force seems willing to allow 13tph (including freight) in the peaks, but only 12tph off peak. I presume this is to ensure that any delays that accumulate in the peak can be quickly recovered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those services need to be as fast as possible, hence much more limited stops to only ‘scoop up’ extra demand at the 4 busiest stops (Urmston, Birchwood, Widnes, Hunts Cross).

No, they don't. The fast Liverpool-Manchester services are to Victoria via Chat Moss. The CLC is a secondary route now, so connectivity is more important.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

No, they don't. The fast Liverpool-Manchester services are to Victoria via Chat Moss. The CLC is a secondary route now, so connectivity is more important.

How, I beg, will people then get to the Airport? There isn’t even a connection at Newton le Willows off peak now is there?

 

[Glenn1969]

By changing at Piccadilly presumably

 

[tbtc]

Yes - please change it to something like is being proposed. Much simpler than the muddle of hourly services. A handful of people will be inconvenienced (myself included, occasionally), but it's worth it. And providing a regular reliable service for daily journeys should be more of a priority than the "nice to have" of direct Airport links for people doing one or two journeys a year. Plenty of cross-platform connections at Piccadilly for the regular Airport trains anyway.

Much better to have a smaller number of half hourly services that can recover a lot better in the event of something going wrong (e.g. if there's delays through Warrington then a delayed Cleethorpes - Liverpool train can form the next eastbound Liverpool - Nottingham train in the correct slot (and everything drops beck half an hour) rather than the entire timetable falling apart (because the hourly trains run by different TOCs means very little bouncebackability)

In fact, I agree with the earlier suggestions about simplifying things further with a half hourly Liverpool - Doncaster service (hourly to Cleethorpes/ Hull) and a half hourly Nottingham - Leeds service (via Barnsley). Not sure there needs to be a separate Manchester - Nottingham service on top of that though.

I think that some of the discussion on here about "which TOC will run which proposed service in a couple of years time" seems a bit "froth" since we have no idea what kind of railway we'll have post-Covid, once the Government reaches a decision over what contracts should look like - e.g. there may not be a "TransPennine" operator.

But if we do keep the same operators then I could see some logic in giving not just the Liverpool - Cleethorpes service to EMR but also the Doncaster - Scunthorpe service and maybe even some of the other South Yorkshire stuff (Sheffield - Doncaster - Adwick stoppers, Sheffield - Gainsborough stopper). Critical mass.

Additional stops on the CLC sounds fine too - maybe you could run some services that are half hourly to the nearest big city in the morning peak and half hourly from the nearest big city in the evening peak - but I've no problem with a couple of additional stops in the ex-Sheffield services (even if it means slower journeys for me) since these aren't the "fast" trains from Manchester to Liverpool any more, so sticking in an extra five minutes of duration isn't too much of a hardship. The CLC is more like what some routes will be post-HS2 - i.e. by removing the "non-stop InterCity" demand you free up space for trains to make more stops at local stations that were previously starved of as many stops as they'd deserve.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How, I beg, will people then get to the Airport?

On the CLC services changing at Picc (same platform), just a bit slower. We aren't talking about adding hours, we're talking about adding a few minutes.