TPE operating a Northern service?

[Saad]

Just found this on RTT (2Z34 LDS-YRK departing 20/04). Bit confused as this would normally be run by Northern. Anyone know why TPE are operating this service?

 

[coxxy]

TPE taking a couple of stopping paths from Northern.

MCV - Hudd via Tod and a Leeds - York stopper.

Think its just during the TRPU work but not sure exactly.

 

[185]

Albeit only for one day, but it does raise a serious question for Aslef & RMT - do they know this company cross-cover is taking place, with very different terms and conditions? Northern are running Leeds to Selby - why not York?

I recall in the overlap period in 2004 (First North Western, First TPE) that TPE guards were being asked to work FNW 142s from Liverpool & Manchester to break an overtime ban / strike... unsurprisingly, they didn't get any volunteers.

 

[LowLevel]

Albeit only for one day, but it does raise a serious question for Aslef & RMT - do they know this company cross-cover is taking place, with very different terms and conditions? Northern are running Leeds to Selby - why not York?

I recall in the overlap period in 2004 (First North Western, First TPE) that TPE guards were being asked to work FNW 142s from Liverpool & Manchester to break an overtime ban / strike... unsurprisingly, they didn't get any volunteers.

It's not unheard of. EMT/R and XC have covered bits of trains occasionally for each other for years - I remember maybe 10 years ago seeing the last Nottingham to Leicester formed of an XC 170 and crew (and it's happened since) and also a 222 between Nottingham and Derby on what should have been the last train to Birmingham to connect with a Voyager.

 

[RailWonderer]

Albeit only for one day, but it does raise a serious question for Aslef & RMT - do they know this company cross-cover is taking place, with very different terms and conditions? Northern are running Leeds to Selby - why not York?

I recall in the overlap period in 2004 (First North Western, First TPE) that TPE guards were being asked to work FNW 142s from Liverpool & Manchester to break an overtime ban / strike... unsurprisingly, they didn't get any volunteers.

Also EMR were picking up Hope Valley calls in lieu of the Northern Manchester - Sheffield stopper which wasn't running in January for a few days.

 

[Saad]

TPE taking a couple of stopping paths from Northern.

MCV - Hudd via Tod and a Leeds - York stopper.

Think its just during the TRPU work but not sure exactly.

Might be my memory serving me incorrectly, but doesn't TPE have enough trains as it should to begin with? 6 car 185s can get far beyond overcrowded, and I don't exactly see how running additional services is going to help them, unless they are using Northern units?

 

[Iskra]

Also EMR were picking up Hope Valley calls in lieu of the Northern Manchester - Sheffield stopper which wasn't running in January for a few days.

EMR trains call at those stations daily (at the extremities of the day) so it’s not quite the same thing.

 

[Russel]

Albeit only for one day, but it does raise a serious question for Aslef & RMT - do they know this company cross-cover is taking place, with very different terms and conditions? Northern are running Leeds to Selby - why not York?

I recall in the overlap period in 2004 (First North Western, First TPE) that TPE guards were being asked to work FNW 142s from Liverpool & Manchester to break an overtime ban / strike... unsurprisingly, they didn't get any volunteers.

So, run a service to get the passengers from A to B, or don't run a service and keep the unions happy...

Yeah, they railway certainly knows how to make it's self an easy target for the media.

 

[Anvil1984]

It’ll be because of the TPRU works on Easter Weekend. I believe TPE are running the Leeds - York stoppers on 19 -21 (According to the Northern Website). In tune this will free up a couple of units to strengthen Northern’s Calder Valley services which will be full due to TPE terminating at Dewsbury (or bus to Huddersfield)

 

[43066]

So, run a service to get the passengers from A to B, or don't run a service and keep the unions happy...

Yeah, they railway certainly knows how to make it's self an easy target for the media.

There are good reasons for “keeping the unions happy” in this context. If my TOC expected me to work another TOC’s trains I’d want to know whose driving policy I was driving to, which management would investigate if I had an incident etc. These arrangements are possible (Southeastern working Southern and historically Thameslink services) but aren’t something that can just be done at the drop of a hat.

In the situation described in the OP it’s just one operator laying on an additional service, so no issue with driving policies etc.

 

[800001]

Albeit only for one day, but it does raise a serious question for Aslef & RMT - do they know this company cross-cover is taking place, with very different terms and conditions? Northern are running Leeds to Selby - why not York?

I recall in the overlap period in 2004 (First North Western, First TPE) that TPE guards were being asked to work FNW 142s from Liverpool & Manchester to break an overtime ban / strike... unsurprisingly, they didn't get any volunteers.

TPE train, TPE crewed what’s the issue?

 

[InkyScrolls]

Might be my memory serving me incorrectly, but doesn't TPE have enough trains as it should to begin with? 6 car 185s can get far beyond overcrowded, and I don't exactly see how running additional services is going to help them, unless they are using Northern units?

They can't use Northern units as TPE don't sign any of Northern's stock.

 

[ainsworth74]

TPE train, TPE crewed what’s the issue?

Does seem a touch bizarre doesn't it? TPE are running services between Leeds and York using spare resources due to the blockade to free up Northern resources for the Calder Valley which will be oversubscribed due to the same blockade. Seems quite sensible to me and I'm not sure why either the RMT or ASLEF would have an issue?

There are good reasons for “keeping the unions happy” in this context. If my TOC expected me to work another TOC’s trains I’d want to know whose driving policy I was driving to, which management would investigate if I had an incident etc. These arrangements are possible (Southeastern working Southern and historically Thameslink services) but aren’t something that can just be done at the drop of a hat.

Guess it's a good job it's a TPE service, using TPE stock and crew then! Keeps things straight forward.

 

[bluenoxid]

I understand that the engineering work release a chunk of TPE stock, which would be sitting in sidings otherwise

If the unions are fussed, they have appropriate routes to raise their concerns. It’s a strange principle to be fighting considering the direction that the wind is blowing of stronger government direction and control.

As said above, running your trains on routes you operate releasing stock to relieve conditions for colleagues appears to be a bonus and win all round.

 

[43066]

Does seem a touch bizarre doesn't it? TPE are running services between Leeds and York using spare resources due to the blockade to free up Northern resources for the Calder Valley which will be oversubscribed due to the same blockade. Seems quite sensible to me and I'm not sure why either the RMT or ASLEF would have an issue?


Guess it's a good job it's a TPE service, using TPE stock and crew then! Keeps things straight forward.

Yes - not an issue in the context. Trickier if TPE crews were working Northern trains, or vice versa.

 

[ainsworth74]

If the unions are fussed, they have appropriate routes to raise their concerns.

At this point the only person who appears concerned is @185!

 

[185]

At this point the only person who appears concerned is @185!

You miss the point that what no one blinks at at one operator would be WW3 at several others.

My main issue is that actually TPE should be returning to working primarily express services, and with them frequently abandoning major intercity services between Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield & Leeds citing short staffing or blaming engineering - local services like this should be at the bottom of their resources list, especially on a Sunday.

 

[noddingdonkey]

A Sunday when most of their core route is closed due to Engineering so they can't use those resources. If it was a regular arrangement you might have a point, but this seems like a pragmatic solution that is in everyone's interest.

I assume there will be leniency around TOC specific tickets for this one off? I don't know if there are Northern only tickets on this flow but you would like to hope that they willl be honoured for the sake of regular passengers who haven't realised things are slightly different that week?

 

[800001]

You miss the point that what no one blinks at at one operator would be WW3 at several others.

My main issue is that actually TPE should be returning to working primarily express services, and with them frequently abandoning major intercity services between Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield & Leeds citing short staffing or blaming engineering - local services like this should be at the bottom of their resources list, especially on a Sunday.

Railway does something sensible due to engineering work and people kick up a fuss.

Damned if they do, damned if they don’t.

 

[dodecahedron67]

This is solely due to the works at Mirfield. It’ll happen again throughout TRU.

Will be run as mostly 3.185 but I believe there might be one or two 6.185s.

Also when Huddersfield shuts for 30 days, TPE will be running the Leeds - Brighouse - Man Vic stopper using 185s with Northern running a Man Vic - Wigan shuttle.

The original plan was for TPE to run via Bradford Interchange with Northern crew acting as route conductors but this was scrapped and it was decided TPE would take over the York - Leeds and Manchester via Brighouse stoppers so Northern have the stock to strengthen the Calder Valley ‘fasts’ to 5.195 and 6.195 instead, as they’ll be the only Leeds - Manchester direct trains running.

I assume there will be leniency around TOC specific tickets for this one off? I don't know if there are Northern only tickets on this flow but you would like to hope that they willl be honoured for the sake of regular passengers who haven't realised things are slightly different that week?

Unannounced ‘Northern Only’ ticket acceptance on TPE between Leeds and York for the days where this is the case.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Really pleasing to see this excellent work from planners and TOCS all round to come up with sensible pragmatic solutions to keeping as many people moving during this long term project. Well done all round as far as I can see.

 

[800001]

Really pleasing to see this excellent work from planners and TOCS all round to come up with sensible pragmatic solutions to keeping as many people moving during this long term project. Well done all round as far as I can see.

Yes this is very good, suppose with both TOCS now been under Operator of Last Resort has made this easier to plan.

 

[LittleAH]

Can’t believe there are people complaining that the railway is being passenger focused and trying to drag union issues into it. Especially when said unions would’ve cleared it. Amazing what a joined up railway can do isn’t it.

 

[Watershed]

This is a very sensible solution overall, but this bit:

Unannounced ‘Northern Only’ ticket acceptance on TPE between Leeds and York for the days where this is the case.

is reflective of the terrible attitude to customer service that the industry needs to get rid of.

TOCs are so afraid of losing a tiny bit of revenue on a handful of dates, that they would rather inconvenience passengers and make them think they have to travel the long way round via Harrogate, than publicise the ticket acceptance which has (sensibly) been introduced.

Utterly pathetic stuff. Only a small proportion of passengers would work out they can buy a cheaper "Northern only" ticket and then use the acceptance to travel on TPE. Most would just buy their usual tickets and be done with it.

To be honest, there shouldn't even be "Northern only" fares, let alone Advances, on a flow like this to begin with. If the walk-up fares were reasonably priced, there wouldn't be any point in having them.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Especially as Northern and TPE are essentially sister companies these days, so the revenue ultimately ends up in the same place.

 

[louis97]

TOCs are so afraid of losing a tiny bit of revenue on a handful of dates, that they would rather inconvenience passengers and make them think they have to travel the long way round via Harrogate, than publicise the ticket acceptance which has (sensibly) been introduced.

Unannounced ‘Northern Only’ ticket acceptance on TPE between Leeds and York for the days where this is the case.

The Northern website does say that Northern tickets will be valid on the specific services TPE are operating instead of Northern:
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/easter
Towards the bottom under "Trains between Leeds and York will be served by TPE"

I suspect the unannounced bit refers to on other TPE services?

 

[800001]

The Northern website does say that Northern tickets will be valid on the specific services TPE are operating instead of Northern:
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/easter
Towards the bottom under "Trains between Leeds and York will be served by TPE"

I suspect the unannounced bit refers to on other TPE services?

Here is what it says

On 19, 20, and 21 April, Northern’s stopping services between Leeds and York (calling at Cross Gates, Garforth, East Garforth, Micklefield, and Church Fenton) will be temporarily operated by TransPennine Express (TPE) instead of Northern.

The timetable will remain the same, and Northern tickets will still be valid on these services, even though they will be run by TPE trains. However, please note that Northern tickets will only be valid on these specific replacement services— you cannot use them on other TPE services.

Additionally, due to engineering work in the Mirfield area, trains between Leeds and Manchester will be diverted via the Calder Valley route through Hebden Bridge. As a result, Northern services on this route are expected to be much busier than usual.

Please check your journey before you travel.

 

[RHolmes]

Yes this is very good, suppose with both TOCS now been under Operator of Last Resort has made this easier to plan.

The relationship between the two companies has much improved since Chris Jackson (former Northern MD) was brought into Transpennine following nationalisation.

TOCs are so afraid of losing a tiny bit of revenue on a handful of dates, that they would rather inconvenience passengers and make them think they have to travel the long way round via Harrogate, than publicise the ticket acceptance which has (sensibly) been introduced.

Utterly pathetic stuff. Only a small proportion of passengers would work out they can buy a cheaper "Northern only" ticket and then use the acceptance to travel on TPE. Most would just buy their usual tickets and be done with it.

To be honest, there shouldn't even be "Northern only" fares, let alone Advances, on a flow like this to begin with. If the walk-up fares were reasonably priced, there wouldn't be any point in having them.

Northern only and TPE only fares still exist on the Leeds to Hudds stopping service with similar unadvertised acceptance in place (for the stoppers only)

 

[janb]

The relationship between the two companies has much improved since Chris Jackson (former Northern MD) was brought into Transpennine following nationalisation.

Chris was Regional Director West and Central at Northern, not MD. Left to become MD at Transpennine.

 

[Ollie29]

Especially as Northern and TPE are essentially sister companies these days, so the revenue ultimately ends up in the same place.

Since when has this been the case and how does that work out of interest?