TPE Plan for the future

[Class 170101]

There may be solid operational reasons for retaining it, but Middlesbrough-Saltburn is one of the few places on TPEs network where there is another TOC which provides perfectly adequate capacity and frequency. There's no need for a third train every hour to Saltburn. I would go further and say that its principal purpose is to look good on Ben Houchen's CV.

Except you forget that Saltburn now has direct links to York, Leeds and Manchester without having to change at Darlington. People trust direct trains more than connecting ones given that connecting trains won't be held if your train you are connecting from is late.

 

[800001]

Except you forget that Saltburn now has direct links to York, Leeds and Manchester without having to change at Darlington. People trust direct trains more than connecting ones given that connecting trains won't be held if your train you are connecting from is late.

Every TPE train I’ve seen leaving Saltburn for Manchester has has 1-2 people on, never seen anyone get off a terminating train yet.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Except you forget that Saltburn now has direct links to York, Leeds and Manchester without having to change at Darlington

The trains are quite empty between Boro and Saltburn and, in any case, Northern are 2tph from Saltburn and Redcar to Boro and Darlington.

If they don’t have enough 185s to double up most services on the Hope Valley, it seems a waste to have a double unit carrying fresh air to the seasside.

 

[Llandudno]

Perhaps people travelling to from Saltburn choose to travel on a Northern train as it’s more likely to turn up!

 

[nr758123]

Perhaps people travelling to from Saltburn choose to travel on a Northern train as it’s more likely to turn up!

My point exactly. There's a perfectly satisfactory alternative available, something which cannot be said in many other places on TPEs North route.

 

[Killingworth]

The trains are quite empty between Boro and Saltburn and, in any case, Northern are 2tph from Saltburn and Redcar to Boro and Darlington.

If they don’t have enough 185s to double up most services on the Hope Valley, it seems a waste to have a double unit carrying fresh air to the seasside.

Perhaps people travelling to from Saltburn choose to travel on a Northern train as it’s more likely to turn up!

However a single from Saltburn to Boro on TPE may cost only £3.40 against £5.80 on Northern, although the supposedly express service may take 10 minutes longer!

 

[pennine]

However a single from Saltburn to Boro on TPE may cost only £3.40 against £5.80 on Northern, although the supposedly express service may take 10 minutes longer!

That 10 minute wait at Redcar is a pain. Shame they can't pick up at other station on the way.

 

[MarinerOne]

On South Pennine overcroding was losing TPE custom, first class sitting on the floor, until early 2020 when capacity seemed to be coming right. In early March that seemed to be more than an upward blip and numbers were building - but within a fortnight all was lost!

Why buy a first class ticket from Sheffield to Manchester or Liverpool on an hourly service that often hasn't run, was very late or stopped short? For a more reliable hourly fast service use EMR where a trolley is often provided that should get through all 4 cars - except when they're packed because the preceding TPE hasn't run! A trolley often can't get through a packed 3 car. If it's 6 car the trolley only serves 3.

However Northern's 195 stoppers are picking up cost conscious Manchester Airport travellers for whom an extra 20 minutes is no big deal, especially as they usually run without delays picked up before Piccadilly or Sheffield.

l struggled along for years with TPE doing Meadowhall to Manchester Piccadilly; standing in Standard, standing in First, delays, delays, then it improved a bit with the longer sets. Then I started working in Liverpool so changed at Sheffield for the EMT. Then TPE introduced Meadowhall to Liverpool Lime Street (ex-Cleethorpes) and that was a shambles. Cancellations galore, “sorry, terminating at Piccadilly or Oxford Rd“. Ditched TPE completely and changed in Sheffield for the EMT. No better; shambles. Short sets, standing in dangerous conditions. Cancellations galore.

I love the train but I now drive. I can’t trust either EMT or TPE. Lost a customer forever.

 

[ainsworth74]

If you curtail the service back to Middlesbrough you start running into the same issues that caused the service to be extended in the first place because, as yet, nothing has really changed on the ground. If you terminate at Middlesbrough with a long lay over you have the issue of where you put the TPE set. It can't fit into the siding to the west of the station unless it's only going to be a 3-car 185. The main carriage sidings to the east are a pain to access (upon terminating in platform 2 you have to change end, shunt back out of the station to the west, change end again, then traverse P1 before getting into the siding). Certainly not impossible by any stretch but a pain. Also often they can be full of Northern units (at least the bit that's cleared for use, the whole length isn't in service for anything other than Network Rail tampers and the like). Otherwise it's going to have to go down to Guisborough Junction (on the way to Nunthorpe). So if it's a short turn around say ten/twenty minutes or so (which is what they were before the Redcar extension) that's probably workable. The branch isn't that busy, but the current layovers of around 50 minutes are going to be impossible to fit at Guisborough junction. But the shorter turnarounds have implication for service reliability, which was the driver for extending the service in the first place.

So that means the easiest way to get out of the way is to go to Redcar and then shunt out of the station into the loop there and then sit in the loop. That keeps it nicely out of the way but it can still rapidly cause chaos when TPE are late and don't have time to actually go to the loop and come back again. I've experienced on multiple occasions Northern services picking up delays due to TPE being in the way at Redcar. So then that makes Saltburn the logical place to go get TPE out of the way to have a turn around which is long enough for service reliability but without gumming up Northern (since they extension to Northern it's been a long while since TPE have caused my trains to be delayed).

Now there are obvious political benefits to be sure. Hi Viz Houchen has been making hay as has the Redcar MP Jacob Young when the service was extended to Saltburn (which was odd as that's not in his constituency). The connectivity is also nice to have as well. I've taken advantage of it myself on a few occasions. I'm not convinced it's quite as poorly used as some have suggested above but it definitely seems time dependent (trains during the day seem to load a bit better than say the last train or two of the night) and I certainly won't deny that often a 3 car 185 will be carrying only a handful of passengers. But I've also seen mid-afternoon trains loading slightly more healthily similarly on weekends as well the morning trains down to York seem to do a bit better.

Broadly speaking I'm not sure it's quite as simple as saying "start terminating at Middlesbrough again". There were solid operational reasons for extending beyond Middlesbrough it certainly wasn't just for the sake of politicians egos.

Sorry if I’m asking in the wrong place but does anybody know why the 1844 from Manchester Airport to Saltburn is diverted to Darlington from the timetable change in December leaving York- Middlesbrough with a random 2 hour gap in an otherwise hourly service? Similarly on Sundays the first train of the day from Middlesbrough is diverted to start from Darlington. Thanks in advance for any information on this.

Oh great, that's a service I use not infrequently to get back from York to Middlesbrough/Redcar. Now I'll probably end up having to hope that conductors can't be bothered to issue a change of route excess when going via Darlington otherwise I'll be stung for £5.65 on top of the £21.30 that a return not via Darlington already costs. Fantastic I wonder if this is crewing issue? Easier to find a conductor that signs the road to Darlington rather than to Saltburn perhaps? I've noticed that that one can be prone to cancellation or delays waiting for a conductor (there seems to be a conductor swap at York).

That 10 minute wait at Redcar is a pain. Shame they can't pick up at other station on the way.

I've been thinking for a while that there clearly should be a call at Marske to take advantage of that dead time...

 

[Tetchytyke]

Broadly speaking I'm not sure it's quite as simple as saying "start terminating at Middlesbrough again". There were solid operational reasons for extending beyond Middlesbrough

Thank you for the information- I hadn’t realised the siding at Boro couldn’t take 2x185. The current timetable would still give about 45 minutes turnaround at Boro if the Boro-Saltburn bit was dropped, with the obvious unit saving. But if there’s nowhere to stick the train at Boro then it’s a moot point.

 

[ainsworth74]

Thank you for the information- I hadn’t realised the siding at Boro couldn’t take 2x185.

Yep I think 4x23m is all that fits in there so when they were all diagrammed to be single 185s that siding was fine but now that most (all?) are diagrammed to be double sets it limits your options considerably unless you live with tight turnarounds. Which has performance risk implications.

From memory another reason they started exploring Redcar was there was some argy bargy from ASLEF about their drivers and the available walking route at Guisborough Junction not being safe for them to move from either unit to unit or, as originally planned, from 68 to Mk5. But then the 2018 timetable collapse and the desire to try and add some more resilience to the timetable meant that extending to Redcar became more attractive.

The current timetable would still give about 45 minutes turnaround at Boro if the Boro-Saltburn bit was dropped, with the obvious unit saving. But if there’s nowhere to stick the train at Boro then it’s a moot point.

That's the problem really. The layout at Middlesbrough remains quite constrained with only two platforms (with some annoying limitations on what directions you arrive/depart from/to) and the main carriage sidings only being accessible from one of the platforms whilst the other carriage siding is a perfect length for Northern (there's only one train per day that exceeds 4x23m in length I think) but useless for TPE (and LNER to be fair) with their operation of longer train sets than in the past.

From memory, if it ever happens, the proposed infrastructure upgrades to go with shiny new station entrance and general revamp should address the problem of the carriage sidings being a pain to access as it will now be possible to get directly to them from P2. So it might be worth revisiting at that point in time to consider if dropping Boro-Saltburn to save a unit or two might be worthwhile. Assuming it happens of course. We've still not finished phase 1 of fixing the station buildings (though work progresses!) let alone starting work on the other phases!

 

[Mark Teesside]

If you curtail the service back to Middlesbrough you start running into the same issues that caused the service to be extended in the first place because, as yet, nothing has really changed on the ground. If you terminate at Middlesbrough with a long lay over you have the issue of where you put the TPE set. It can't fit into the siding to the west of the station unless it's only going to be a 3-car 185. The main carriage sidings to the east are a pain to access (upon terminating in platform 2 you have to change end, shunt back out of the station to the west, change end again, then traverse P1 before getting into the siding). Certainly not impossible by any stretch but a pain. Also often they can be full of Northern units (at least the bit that's cleared for use, the whole length isn't in service for anything other than Network Rail tampers and the like). Otherwise it's going to have to go down to Guisborough Junction (on the way to Nunthorpe). So if it's a short turn around say ten/twenty minutes or so (which is what they were before the Redcar extension) that's probably workable. The branch isn't that busy, but the current layovers of around 50 minutes are going to be impossible to fit at Guisborough junction. But the shorter turnarounds have implication for service reliability, which was the driver for extending the service in the first place.

So that means the easiest way to get out of the way is to go to Redcar and then shunt out of the station into the loop there and then sit in the loop. That keeps it nicely out of the way but it can still rapidly cause chaos when TPE are late and don't have time to actually go to the loop and come back again. I've experienced on multiple occasions Northern services picking up delays due to TPE being in the way at Redcar. So then that makes Saltburn the logical place to go get TPE out of the way to have a turn around which is long enough for service reliability but without gumming up Northern (since they extension to Northern it's been a long while since TPE have caused my trains to be delayed).

Now there are obvious political benefits to be sure. Hi Viz Houchen has been making hay as has the Redcar MP Jacob Young when the service was extended to Saltburn (which was odd as that's not in his constituency). The connectivity is also nice to have as well. I've taken advantage of it myself on a few occasions. I'm not convinced it's quite as poorly used as some have suggested above but it definitely seems time dependent (trains during the day seem to load a bit better than say the last train or two of the night) and I certainly won't deny that often a 3 car 185 will be carrying only a handful of passengers. But I've also seen mid-afternoon trains loading slightly more healthily similarly on weekends as well the morning trains down to York seem to do a bit better.

Broadly speaking I'm not sure it's quite as simple as saying "start terminating at Middlesbrough again". There were solid operational reasons for extending beyond Middlesbrough it certainly wasn't just for the sake of politicians egos.


Oh great, that's a service I use not infrequently to get back from York to Middlesbrough/Redcar. Now I'll probably end up having to hope that conductors can't be bothered to issue a change of route excess when going via Darlington otherwise I'll be stung for £5.65 on top of the £21.30 that a return not via Darlington already costs. Fantastic I wonder if this is crewing issue? Easier to find a conductor that signs the road to Darlington rather than to Saltburn perhaps? I've noticed that that one can be prone to cancellation or delays waiting for a conductor (there seems to be a conductor swap at York).

I've been thinking for a while that there clearly should be a call at Marske to take advantage of that dead time...

I’m actually going to e mail them about this to find out why one journey in an otherwise hourly service is diverted to Darlington. Darlington is already served by the hourly Newcastle to Liverpool service in addition to CrossCountry to Leeds so i dont understand why Yarm Thornaby and Middlesbrough are left with a two hour gap. Although strangely it still runs to Saltburn on Saturdays

 

[pennine]

I’m actually going to e mail them about this to find out why one journey in an otherwise hourly service is diverted to Darlington. Darlington is already served by the hourly Newcastle to Liverpool service in addition to CrossCountry to Leeds so i dont understand why Yarm Thornaby and Middlesbrough are left with a two hour gap. Although strangely it still runs to Saltburn on Saturdays

Times like that I wish the cheaper ticket from Saltburn to York was marked at 'route direct' rather than 'not via Darlington'. Would solve the issue of a direct train going via Darlington.

 

[SuperNova]

I’m actually going to e mail them about this to find out why one journey in an otherwise hourly service is diverted to Darlington. Darlington is already served by the hourly Newcastle to Liverpool service in addition to CrossCountry to Leeds so i dont understand why Yarm Thornaby and Middlesbrough are left with a two hour gap. Although strangely it still runs to Saltburn on Saturdays

Route retention. Some services were terminating at Darlington due to engineering work back in 2021 rather than going through to Redcar at the time.

We’re also losing the route knowledge between Darlington and Middlesbrough from December but may gain it back in the future.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I wonder how they're going to deal with the issue of capacity on the hope valley in practice, if they can't make everything double 185 then they are basically sunk from day one as passengers will not come back to or stay with the railway if the overcrowding issues continue or get worse and as EMR struggle as well this just seems like one great big ticking time bomb to me. In theory if the cash was available how quickly could Hitachi get another dozen 802 sets into traffic for them?

 

[ainsworth74]

Route retention. Some services were terminating at Darlington due to engineering work back in 2021 rather than going through to Redcar at the time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and that's certainly possible(!), but I thought the Saltburn service was crewed by York depot so surely they don't need to divert and then terminate an extremely useful service (I would say that wouldn't I ) for them to maintain their route knowledge to Darlington they must get up to Newcastle frequently enough to maintain that knowledge?

We’re also losing the route knowledge between Darlington and Middlesbrough from December but may gain it back in the future.

Which is itself barmy. I have seen TPE divert that way when there's trouble on the route via Yarm on several occasions. Indeed I've been on a service that's diverted that way on the fly!

But that raises the point that surely if TPE want to maintain route knowledge to Darlington they could also maintain route knowledge between Darlington and Middlesbrough by running the 1844 from Man Air to Darlington as planned but then on from there to Saltburn? Two birds, one stone and only Yarm passengers miss out rather than everyone beyond Northallerton?

 

[Mark Teesside]

Route retention. Some services were terminating at Darlington due to engineering work back in 2021 rather than going through to Redcar at the time.

We’re also losing the route knowledge between Darlington and Middlesbrough from December but may gain it back in the future.

Thanks for the reply, with regards to route retention, don’t York crews already work this stretch of route with the Newcastle to Liverpool service? It seems a little odd to cause a two hour gap in an otherwise hourly service while giving Darlington (which is already very well served by tpe) an extra service. Especially when it will probably carry nothing but fresh air between Northallerton and Darlington.

 

[Anvil1984]

Correct me if I'm wrong, and that's certainly possible(!), but I thought the Saltburn service was crewed by York depot so surely they don't need to divert and then terminate an extremely useful service (I would say that wouldn't I ) for them to maintain their route knowledge to Darlington they must get up to Newcastle frequently enough to maintain that knowledge?

I believe there are separate links at York based on traction, one was the Class 802 link which signed Newcastle and the other was the Class 68 link which signs Boro (class 185 knowledge probably spread between both). But the latter link would need Darlington knowledge

 

[danbarjon]

The refreshed catering on the WCML will start from 26th of February. They will also start offering Alcohol in First Class on the WCML.

 

[Horseman]

The refreshed catering on the WCML will start from 26th of February. They will also start offering Alcohol in First Class on the WCML.

Any idea what the refreshed catering is due to consist of?

 

[danbarjon]

Any idea what the refreshed catering is due to consist of?

TransPennine Express refreshes ‘diluted and confused’ onboard catering

UK: TransPennine Express is to relaunch its onboard catering proposition from February 26 after a review concluded that its existing offering had become 'diluted and confused'. The operator told stakeholders that this is partly the result of timetable enhancements which have not been matched by...

www.railwaygazette.com

The WCML first class food offer will include Highland breakfast, vegan breakfast, freshly prepared breakfast and sandwiches. All day items will include a selection of hot, plated dishes such as braised beef stew and vegan options including ratatouille chilli with rice. Premium sausage rolls will be sourced from suppliers on the route. A range of premium coffee, teas and soft drinks will be available throughout the day, with beer and wine in the afternoon.

 

[800Travel]

TransPennine Express refreshes ‘diluted and confused’ onboard catering

UK: TransPennine Express is to relaunch its onboard catering proposition from February 26 after a review concluded that its existing offering had become 'diluted and confused'. The operator told stakeholders that this is partly the result of timetable enhancements which have not been matched by...

www.railwaygazette.com

Shame they aren’t also refining the ECML provision. Maybe once they’ve tested it on the WCML

 

[danbarjon]

Shame they aren’t also refining the ECML provision. Maybe once they’ve tested it on the WCML

I think I might book a train ticket to try it out on the WCML whilst they test it.

 

[HullRailMan]

Large parts of the TPE network get zero catering provision. I wonder if that will ever change.

 

[wellhouse]

Shame they aren’t also refining the ECML provision. Maybe once they’ve tested it on the WCML

A few weeks ago I had complimentary wine in FC between York and Huddersfield. What I would really appreciate is a specific publication of when catering is provided (as XC do); is the 1830 cut off time the time you are travelling. the time of departure, or time of arrival?

 

[800Travel]

A few weeks ago I had complimentary wine in FC between York and Huddersfield. What I would really appreciate is a specific publication of when catering is provided (as XC do); is the 1830 cut off time the time you are travelling. the time of departure, or time of arrival?

The main thing preventing me from wanting to use first class, along with the lack of detail around times offered, is the fact that so often the catering isn't provided according to JourneyCheck and also the fact that TPE has only one 'host' for the whole train. Wonder whether this WCML test will include a dedicated first class host - would certainly make it more tempting, and would feel more likely first class catering would be offered. I'm of the opinion that if it isn't, a partial refund should be due. I know @Watershed mentioned lack of catering may have a case under the Consumer Rights Act, but it would be nice to see TPE offer an official guarantee of catering or compensation - like their seat guarantee or delay repay. They say their new plan is all about getting customers faith back - something like this would make customers trust them a little more - albeit it first class only, but still, better some than none.

 

[td97]

Interesting that the Leeds Huddersfield stopper will transfer back to Northern in December.

From December 2024, the Leeds to Huddersfield stopping service will transfer to Northern

And the Manchester Huddersfield stopper by the time TRU is completed.

TPE has also confirmed that the stopping service between Manchester and Huddersfield is expected to transfer to Northern before the end of the decade as the Transpennine Route Upgrade project is completed.

Presumably this is to enable electric stopping services as TPE don't have suitable stock or depots until the full route is wired, and to enable the new TPE stock order to cater for a regional express layout rather than commuter.

TransPennine Express confirms plans to ‘build back’ its timetable

UK: TransPennine Express has confirmed that it expects to begin reinstating services to meet commitments it made when it announced temporary timetable reductions in December 2023. Good progress has been made with crew training which will allow the operator to begin to restore services from June ...

www.railwaygazette.com

 

[danbarjon]

Interesting that the Leeds Huddersfield stopper will transfer back to Northern in December.

And the Manchester Huddersfield stopper by the time TRU is completed.

Presumably this is to enable electric stopping services as TPE don't have suitable stock or depots until the full route is wired, and to enable the new TPE stock order to cater for a regional express layout rather than commuter.

TransPennine Express confirms plans to ‘build back’ its timetable

UK: TransPennine Express has confirmed that it expects to begin reinstating services to meet commitments it made when it announced temporary timetable reductions in December 2023. Good progress has been made with crew training which will allow the operator to begin to restore services from June ...

www.railwaygazette.com

Definitely an interesting article.

 

[nr758123]

And the Manchester Huddersfield stopper by the time TRU is completed.

And when might that be?

 

[thelongestroad]

And when might that be?

Refer to your signature for railway timings.