TPE Plan for the future

[Msq71423]

TPE have now publicly published their plan for the future which can be viewed at

https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/-/media/PDFs/TransPennine-Express-Our-Plan-For-the-Future.pdf

This Prospectus documents the approach we have taken and the initiatives we have developed.
Our newly appointed Managing Director, together with our new Operations Director, will lead the
implementation. It will form the basis for the development of our Annual Business Plan and budget
for the DfT over the next few months.

We now have a clear strategy to guide the business into the future which will allow us to overcome any short term challenges that may arise from time to time without deflecting us from delivering our core objectives. This will allow us to develop the more detailed delivery and funding plans needed to deliver the ambitions set out in this prospectus.

There are many interesting nuggets and statistics in this document, and is very open and honest in it's approach. Let's hope the plans pan out for the best.

 

[danbarjon]

So looks like a refresh for the 185s, also something to note is that they want to upgrade their First Class catering as a trial on the Anglo-Scottish route first. If they want to compete with AWC and LNER then they better up the quality from Biscuits and Tea.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So looks like a refresh for the 185s, also something to note is that they want to upgrade their First Class catering as a trial on the Anglo-Scottish route first.

A refresh of sorts for everything - they're moving from flat cloth to moquette, a sensible move. New carpets and a deep clean for 185s, though.

If they want to compete with AWC and LNER then they better up the quality from Biscuits and Tea.

I did see the reference to competition and struggle to see the point. The only significant flow where they genuinely compete with anyone is Preston to Scotland, and it isn't that big. Most people will choose direct trains, which means TPE's main Scottish market is Manchester-Scotland and Avanti's London and Birmingham-Scotland.

But as a whole, it looks good. Notable that there is an early-days plan to replace 185s, presumably with battery fitted EMUs of some sort.

 

[CAF397]

A refresh of sorts for everything - they're moving from flat cloth to moquette, a sensible move. New carpets and a deep clean for 185s, though.

Attention to the Vinyl wrap on 185s, and new ties/neck scarfs too. New uniform in 2025.

Whether the opportunity to tweak to the branding will take place remains to be seen.

It has always been a decent livery and brand, but is tainted by the last few years.

 

[danbarjon]

Attention to the Vinyl wrap on 185s, and new ties/neck scarfs too. New uniform in 2025.

Whether the opportunity to tweak to the branding will take place remains to be seen.

It has always been a decent livery and brand, but is tainted by the last few years.

I wonder what the new vinyl wrap would be unless it’s just a new vinyl to keep them looking better for longer and they keep it the same.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder what the new vinyl wrap would be unless it’s just a new vinyl to keep them looking better for longer and they keep it the same.

Could well be that it's corrosion warranty repaint time, which involves pulling the vinyl off as it can hide corrosion.

 

[danbarjon]

Could well be that it's corrosion warranty repaint time, which involves pulling the vinyl off as it can hide corrosion.

When where the 185s last vinyled?

 

[CAF397]

2016-18 when the new Franchise started and they were reliveried.

 

[DarloRich]

I have always been a fan of TPE and enjoy thier trains. I hope this works. They are STILL too short mind.

Some interesting points for me:

• VAST training backlog cleared by December 24?
• TRU impact on these plans must be a bigger risk than set out.
• Class 68 training time and operational costs MUCH higher than the other fleets
• However, I note a slight lifeline for class 68 usage with a number of subject to's
• it states removing these trains will only decrease seating capacity by 5% but that is a risk on trains that are already very busy.
• development of a more flexible depot strategy for Class 397 and Class 802 trains.
• reduced reliance on Doncaster Carr for 802 stabling/servicing
• improve flexibility of depot on/off timings which are currently extremely constrained
• reduce the number of Class 397 trains out stabled and review the maintenance contract
• Suggestion of longer term new depots and new trains as TRU rolls out

No interest in uniforms, paint or first class biscuits. I AM interested in getting a seat. I remain concerned TPE are taking seats out of a busy service with no replacement. There will be more standing.

I think TPE have nice trains that a good to travel on IF you get a seat I know the cognoscenti here seem to dislike the 185 but i think they are very good. I also like the 802 and the mkvi's. I have little experience of the 397. Regardless, there just aren't enough of them

 

[Lytham Local]

I got a full house playing "Buzzword Bingo" on that document. Given how much core route duplication they have with XC, I would have thought merging both companies would be an option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I got a full house playing "Buzzword Bingo" on that document. Given how much core route duplication they have with XC, I would have thought merging both companies would be an option.

They have almost no core route duplication with XC. Where were you thinking of?

 

[YorkshireBear]

I got a full house playing "Buzzword Bingo" on that document. Given how much core route duplication they have with XC, I would have thought merging both companies would be an option.

Leeds to Edinburgh is the north part only for both. Not sure they merge at all. XC is keyed around Birmingham. TPE around Manchester.

 

[jkkne]

Yet more marketing bluster

Newcastle to Manchester down to 1tph - increased journey times, no link to Picadilly whilst they waste away resource on Edinburgh-Newcastle services that plod around half empty

Northern Powerhouse indeed

 

[Tetchytyke]

I know the cognoscenti here seem to dislike the 185 but i think they are very good. I also like the 802 and the mkvi's. I have little experience of the 397. Regardless, there just aren't enough of them

There are enough 185s, it’s just that TPE aren’t using them effectively.

My worry with the new timetable is that the “5% reduction” in seats is based on everything being a double 185. I just can’t see that happening. People are going to be left behind.

I don’t mind the 185 either, although anything further than Leeds-Manchester and it gets a bit uncomfortable.

I don’t particularly like the 397, but it’s marginally better than a 185 for Manchester-Scotland.

ETA The other thing they need to sort out is catering. One trolley for a 397 or 802 isn’t enough, when I’ve travelled York-Manchester in first class I’ve not seen the trolley on too many occasions. Same on the 185s, with catering only getting provided on one set out of a double- great if your seat is in the “unlucky” set. Two trolleys needed there too.

 

[DarloRich]

My worry with the new timetable is that the “5% reduction” in seats is based on everything being a double 185. I just can’t see that happening. People are going to be left behind

agreed -

As and aside are there really enough 185's to run all trains as double sets?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Newcastle to Manchester down to 1tph - increased journey times, no link to Picadilly whilst they waste away resource on Edinburgh-Newcastle services that plod around half empty

Newcastle-Manchester was 1tph for a long time, it’s no big deal, and Victoria is better for Manchester anyway. The only downside is losing the direct link to Manchester Airport, but you can get that changing at York or Huddersfield.

Edinburgh-Newcastle is a commitment that isn’t easily moved to another TOC, so they’ll be stuck with it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Newcastle-Manchester was 1tph for a long time, it’s no big deal, and Victoria is better for Manchester anyway.

Its location might be, but it's an utter dive of a station.

That said, I think in the context it makes sense.

 

[RailWonderer]

Credit to them for sticking with the Mark V sets this long. The 185s are getting even more tlc with moquette seat covers, carpets and a deep clean which will presumably given their age, need some corrosion repair as well. I'm sure seeing a long term vision is reassuring to those who use the TPE regularly. It seems there is light at the end of the tunnel to the endless cancellations and seeing 185s on the island tracks at Sheffield while cancellations are announced.

agreed -

As and aside are there really enough 185's to run all trains as double sets?

This may become less of an issue after the TRU when they will (most likely) be allowed to order battery EMUs or even cascaded straight EMUs which will release more 185s. On the short term they can be alot more efficient with their fleet as there is some slack at the moments, one of the few TOCs to enjoy such slack.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Edinburgh-Newcastle is a commitment that isn’t easily moved to another TOC, so they’ll be stuck with it.

I imagine they get well paid for that route, given the Scottish government requirement.
There were suggestions of a TOC reorganisation under GBR, merging TPE either with Northern or XC, but no doubt that's gone down the back of the sofa now.

If I read the document properly, TPE are going to separate their IT from that of FirstGroup, and will be using Trainline rather than WebTIS for online sales.
I don't know if this is an OLR-led policy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I imagine they get well paid for that route, given the Scottish government requirement.

There were suggestions of a TOC reorganisation under GBR, merging TPE either with Northern or XC, but no doubt that's gone down the back of the sofa now.

I think you'd not want it to drag another operator down (particularly given Northern have their own problems, as do XC). The time to do this would be when all three are stable.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I imagine they get well paid for that route, given the Scottish government requirement.

Possibly, although the calls at Reston and Dunbar will no doubt have been part of the negotiations back when TPE looked to extend their Liverpool-Newcastle trains to Edinburgh in the first place.

Now those trains don’t go beyond Newcastle it does look like a bit of an odd rump to retain, but in the short term I don’t see who else the services could go to.

 

[jkkne]

Newcastle-Manchester was 1tph for a long time, it’s no big deal, and Victoria is better for Manchester anyway. The only downside is losing the direct link to Manchester Airport, but you can get that changing at York or Huddersfield.

Edinburgh-Newcastle is a commitment that isn’t easily moved to another TOC, so they’ll be stuck with it.

I think it is a deal. It wouldn't be tolerated anywhere else for a major city to only have an hourly link because 'it used to be that way'.

 

[43096]

A refresh of sorts for everything - they're moving from flat cloth to moquette, a sensible move. New carpets and a deep clean for 185s, though.

How many more times will the TOCs have to learn the flat cloth false economy?

 

[Tetchytyke]

It wouldn't be tolerated anywhere else for a major city to only have an hourly link because 'it used to be that way'.

Manchester to Glasgow and Manchester to Edinburgh isn’t even hourly.

Given the timetabling it wasn’t an even frequency in the old timetable, one TPE was usually right behind the other one, limiting the value. And there’s still the option of connecting at York for the Saltburn-Airport trains.

 

[Bantamzen]

I notice most have picked up on the "only 5% reduction" in seats following the 68 sets being taken out of the timetable. Only 5%, on services that can still already be overcrowded. Yay, big win, levelling up etc etc...

Northern you had better keep the Leeds - Chester services going, because that is my regular Trans-Pennine excuse not to use Trans-Pennine Express...

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Northern you had better keep the Leeds - Chester services going, because that is my regular Trans-Pennine excuse not to use Trans-Pennine Express...

Agreed. Bradford was meant to get through services to Manchester Airport, Liverpool and Sheffield as part of Northern Connect. Instead it got Chester and Hull, the former being a useful substitute for Liverpool for those of us on the Wirral.

 

[3RDGEN]

agreed -

As and aside are there really enough 185's to run all trains as double sets?

No, from December the Saltburn's are all diagrammed doubles, Hull & Cleethorpes peak time ones are but not all are doubles. The 185's are diagrammed 46 / 51- 90% whilst the 397 are 8 /12 & the 802 12 / 18 (19) so 67% availability. The 185's get run into the ground as I assume the majority of the traincrew sign them at present, hopefully once training is done the 802's can be stepped up and actually do a bit more.

The December 2023 diagrams are very helpfully detailed below by HST125Scorton, from the December Timetable thread.

For ScotRail LTP Diagrams look here, under Class 2: How we deliver functions and services: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-sc...ts/scotrail-trains-limited-publication-scheme
For TransPennine LTP Diagrams FOI Request by myself here: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/unit_diagrams_dec_2023_june_2024_2025#incoming-2448808

The TPE Plan document is just the usual waffle, they need to deliver a reliable service day in day out before anyone is going to believe that plan.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The TPE Plan document is just the usual waffle, they need to deliver a reliable service day in day out before anyone is going to believe that plan.

That's what the plan is for.

 

[Bantamzen]

That's what the plan is for.

Yeah one that suits the stats, bit perhaps not the people who actually need to use the services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah one that suits the stats, bit perhaps not the people who actually need to use the services.

We've been here before. The choices are a reduced but reliable service, or a full but unreliable service, in which only the reduced level will operate but you won't know until the day which trains. Those are the only two choices available, though we can debate about exactly what should be pruned.

Which of the two would you prefer?