Trade Unions - Standing up for their members or irrelevant in modern society?

[Polarbear]

I work in the public sector & have done so for the majority of my working life. In the almost 30 years I've been here, I have seen unions come & go due to mergers. Some have been good, others indifferent. These days, whilst I am still a member of the union, I feel it has become much more political and by doing so, has also become more confrontational.

Unfortunately, given that the government is effectively the employer for public sector workers, being more confrontational doesn't really cut the mustard. The government simply chooses to ignore anything a union says that it doesn't like/doesn't agree with, and imposes change on it's workforce, welcome or otherwise! This has left many public sector workers pretty hacked off, with seemingly little recourse on either their union, or their employer.

It's not only a matter of pay - I've seen worsened T&C's of my employment, especially over the last few years since the coalition government came to power. The union is by and large, ignored by the employer, so these changes come in whatever they say.

You may wonder why, if things are perceived as being this bad, why I stay here. Probably because I have a skill-set that doesn't easily translate to other roles. I know I'm not alone on that front.

 

[Robertj21a]

Because smooth, conciliatory PR bods cost a lot of money which is, frankly, better spent on actual union business.

Sorry, but that's exactly where it's all going so wrong for the RMT - time and time again. It doesn't have to be some smarmy smoothy that just annoys people - it just has to be someone who can write, and speak, good English and who comes over as polite, knowledgeable and realistic. The RMT seem to have never understood this very basic necessity

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sorry, but that's exactly where it's all going so wrong for the RMT - time and time again. It doesn't have to be some smarmy smoothy that just annoys people - it just has to be someone who can write, and speak, good English and who comes over as polite, knowledgeable and realistic. The RMT seem to have never understood this very basic necessity

They do not also understand the historical status of the ancient number of guilds that were set up, especially when referring to "basket case" companies. Perhaps they have yet to make themselves aware of The Worshipful Company of Basketmakers in such terms, as I struggle to find any connection whatsoever in the nuances appertaining to a transport industrial dispute and the skills required of those workers employed in the trade of basketmaking...:roll:

Before anyone wishes to correct me, I am fully aware of the term used in The Great War to describe soldiers who had lost arms and legs in action.

 

[LowLevel]

Because smooth, conciliatory PR bods cost a lot of money which is, frankly, better spent on actual union business.

The rhetoric has been toned down a lot from the Bob Crow days in general, but because the union is fighting on all fronts in a way it just didn't have to 10 years ago much more of it needs to be put out.

Plus the general public are probably more than a little fed up of smooth, conciliatory (smug, irritating) PR bods who take an entire press release to say nothing, there are enough of those in the world. What the public wants are the simply presented facts, which admittedly the RMT could do better at providing, but they are getting better at providing them. They're certainly better than the DfT at that

Oh come on. It costs nothing at all to proof read something. The vast majority of RMT press releases are riddled with basic spelling, punctuation and grammar errors that would see you fail GCSE English. We had a dispute memo this year about self dispatch of trains that referenced completely the wrong stations causing a number of platform staff who saw it to needlessly fear for their jobs, there's just one example. Read numerous press releases in the dispute threads and they look far from the product of a body that formally represents tens of thousands of people.

I am a loyal member but I pay over 200 quid a year for this and half of the time it's just rubbish. In the mean time, we have a lovely cheap subsidised bar at the union training school in Doncaster for reps and officials on courses.

It's more than a little frustrating. I value our union (it is ours, we own it, not the executive) and our local level is great. Entrenched attitudes higher up help nobody though.

I think my postings on here clarify my position on the DOO dispute very strongly. But the way the union does things it is it's own worst enemy at times.

Before anyone says 'if you can do better, go on then' it's not going to happen. I am a reasonably well educated (in my own opinion) train guard, I do not wish to run a trade union or stand for that office as I'd probably end up getting sacked for upsetting the company or removed for being off message by the union.

 

[Dave1987]

Well I have to say I'm very pleased and surprised will the results of the poll so far. The vast majority of people on this forum at least seem to still believe the trade unions do a good job, albeit maybe more negotiating is required. Certainly restored my faith that the country isn't quite going down the toilet yet.

 

[grumblingalong]

Sorry, but that's exactly where it's all going so wrong for the RMT - time and time again. It doesn't have to be some smarmy smoothy that just annoys people - it just has to be someone who can write, and speak, good English and who comes over as polite, knowledgeable and realistic. The RMT seem to have never understood this very basic necessity

Totally agree with this one. The generally old, slightly unkempt white men do nothing to help the cause. If they want any chance of convincing the commuters they need realistically a suited, booted calm and literate spokesperson.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Well I have to say I'm very pleased and surprised will the results of the poll so far. The vast majority of people on this forum at least seem to still believe the trade unions do a good job, albeit maybe more negotiating is required. Certainly restored my faith that the country isn't quite going down the toilet yet.

.... wasn't there a majority for Remain on here too ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

.... wasn't there a majority for Remain on here too ?

Not amongst the top echelon of the RMT.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well I have to say I'm very pleased and surprised will the results of the poll so far. The vast majority of people on this forum at least seem to still believe the trade unions do a good job, albeit maybe more negotiating is required. Certainly restored my faith that the country isn't quite going down the toilet yet.

Well, given you either had to choose between "unions are doing a good job" and "management should introduce whatever changes they like", I think we can say it's not a very illustrative poll!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well I have to say I'm very pleased and surprised will the results of the poll so far. The vast majority of people on this forum at least seem to still believe the trade unions do a good job, albeit maybe more negotiating is required. Certainly restored my faith that the country isn't quite going down the toilet yet.

The member countries outside Britain in the EU must be absolutely delighted with how the RMT are hell-bent on making the British economy as difficult as possible and your mention of "the country not going down the toilet yet" seems to signify the RMT aspiration for this to occur sooner or later. We look forward to the heartlands of the North as being the area of the next attack by RMT on the economy of Britain. Perhaps a historical reference to the post-Norman invasion event known as "The Harrying of the North" may well be an opportune comparison to mention here.

Scotland, with its view on how Britain should remain in the EU, settled the RMT dispute there in order that no disruption was caused to the Scottish economy.

 

[Robertj21a]

Well, given you either had to choose between "unions are doing a good job" and "management should introduce whatever changes they like", I think we can say it's not a very illustrative poll!

Yes, agreed. There wasn't much point in many of us completing a poll that was poorly worded and lacked appropriate options.

 

[Dave1987]

Yes, agreed. There wasn't much point in many of us completing a poll that was poorly worded and lacked appropriate options.

Neither you are AlterEgo were compelled to take part in the poll or this thread. You are both fully able and capable of creating your own thread and poll if you are not satisfied with what I have done. But around 200 people have voted. I made it anonymous so people would not feel they would be attacked for their vote so could vote honestly. If you don't like the poll simply ignore it! But as a decent amount of people have voted I feel the sample size is large enough to get a gauge of opinion. Please though state, if you wish, the options you would have wanted included.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The generally old, slightly unkempt white men do nothing to help the cause.

Now then, that description certainly describes a certain party leader..

 

[Robertj21a]

Neither you are AlterEgo were compelled to take part in the poll or this thread. You are both fully able and capable of creating your own thread and poll if you are not satisfied with what I have done. But around 200 people have voted. I made it anonymous so people would not feel they would be attacked for their vote so could vote honestly. If you don't like the poll simply ignore it! But as a decent amount of people have voted I feel the sample size is large enough to get a gauge of opinion. Please though state, if you wish, the options you would have wanted included.

It wasn't intended as any form of attack on you, merely a statement of fact. I would certainly hope that I wasn't to be 'compelled to take part' (why on earth should I be?). Despite some concerns over the wording/slant of the poll itself you will note that I have indeed been taking part in this thread, so I've no idea why you seem to be suggesting otherwise.

 

[Dave1987]

The member countries outside Britain in the EU must be absolutely delighted with how the RMT are hell-bent on making the British economy as difficult as possible and your mention of "the country not going down the toilet yet" seems to signify the RMT aspiration for this to occur sooner or later. We look forward to the heartlands of the North as being the area of the next attack by RMT on the economy of Britain. Perhaps a historical reference to the post-Norman invasion event known as "The Harrying of the North" may well be an opportune comparison to mention here.

Scotland, with its view on how Britain should remain in the EU, settled the RMT dispute there in order that no disruption was caused to the Scottish economy.

Paul as far as I can see it's the right wing of the Tory party who are hell bent on ruining the countries prospects. Or would you prefer the unions disappeared and the Amazon model of making staff "self employed" so they are entitled to didily squat was taken up elsewhere? We live in a country where the prospects of getting a decent pension are virtually nill for most people. The Rail unions have fought hard to keep decent pensions on the railway with decent conditions for workers, and you have the cheek to say the RMT is attacking the British economy. You seem to advocate the race to the bottom that personifies the current government!

 

[Legzr1]

So, results of the 'ballot' are in and some members aren't best pleased with the result.

Same old same, democracy rulez!!

 

[Dave1987]

It wasn't intended as any form of attack on you, merely a statement of fact. I would certainly hope that I wasn't to be 'compelled to take part' (why on earth should I be?). Despite some concerns over the wording/slant of the poll itself you will note that I have indeed been taking part in this thread, so I've no idea why you seem to be suggesting otherwise.

Because you seem to be trying to to take the stance that because the options you wanted weren't there that the poll is rubbish. I've given 4 options of which I believe present a balance, I've made it anonymous so people can vote honestly without fear of being chastised for how they voted.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Paul as far as I can see it's the right wing of the Tory party who are hell bent on ruining the countries prospects. Or would you prefer the unions disappeared and the Amazon model of making staff "self employed" so they are entitled to didily squat was taken up elsewhere?

which amazon staff are self employed ? some of the local small scale delivery people... the warehousing and corporate functions ue the typical mix of direct employees and agencies...

We live in a country where the prospects of getting a decent pension are virtually nill for most people.

rubbish , the prospects for those who do not start contributing as soon as they can are poor, and the 'gold plated' nature of soem of the public sector and ex public secotr pensions is in part due to contributions made in those vital first few years of service ...

The Rail unions have fought hard to keep decent pensions on the railway with decent conditions for workers, and you have the cheek to say the RMT is attacking the British economy. You seem to advocate the race to the bottom that personifies the current government!

typical buzzword bingo from the fiscally incontinent on the left ...

 

[Legzr1]

typical buzzword bingo from the fiscally incontinent on the left ...

buzzwords perhaps but the poster makes fair points that you've chosen to ignore.
here's your second chance to refute what he posted

I've deliberately missed a couple of capitals to entice you into serious answers...

 

[Dave1987]

which amazon staff are self employed ? some of the local small scale delivery people... the warehousing and corporate functions ue the typical mix of direct employees and agencies...

The Beeb have sent two reporters undercover into the Amazon system and shown what conditions they are expected to work under. The latest ploy is to categorise their Amazon Logistics drivers are all considered self employed so they aren't entitled to the minimum wage, breaks, holiday or sick pay. Many companies are trying to find ways around the employment rules, or weakening the T&C's of employees. Thankfully the railways have strong unions to stop this ridiculous exploitation happening.

rubbish , the prospects for those who do not start contributing as soon as they can are poor, and the 'gold plated' nature of soem of the public sector and ex public secotr pensions is in part due to contributions made in those vital first few years of service ...

My mrs has paid into her pension pot ever since she started working full time. She recently received a letter from her company saying that they are "modernising" the pension scheme by closing down the old one and opening a new one and transferring all employees to the new one. Needless to say the new one is far far less generous than the old one and she stands to lose out on thousands when she retires. So it seems even those who do start paying into a pension as soon as they can are poor as well!

typical buzzword bingo from the fiscally incontinent on the left ...

Hahahaha you have no idea which way I voted at the last election! I used to be a Tory supporter until they started to show their true colours after they got an overall majority at the last election with no effective opposition.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Paul as far as I can see it's the right wing of the Tory party who are hell bent on ruining the countries prospects.

When I last viewed the current GTR industrial dispute that RMT are involved in, in an area said to be the financial hub of Britain, I cannot recall any instances of the right wing of any political party calling for strike action that will cause hundreds of thousands of company employees to have their travel-to-work and homewards return plans disrupted. These innocent working people, who are neither one side of the dispute nor the other side, are those who have been referred to most accurately as being "collateral damage" on this website by a website member who appears to have no particular axe to grind.

Who is it who seem to view the area of the Northern franchise in what is viewed as the heartland of the Labour Party with many of the large cities of the North, as a target for future industrial action?

 

[Robertj21a]

Because you seem to be trying to to take the stance that because the options you wanted weren't there that the poll is rubbish. I've given 4 options of which I believe present a balance, I've made it anonymous so people can vote honestly without fear of being chastised for how they voted.

Sorry that you feel that. Your interpretation is not what I said but, in any event, each of us is entitled to have our own views.

 

[Dave1987]

When I last viewed the current GTR industrial dispute that RMT are involved in, in an area said to be the financial hub of Britain, I cannot recall any instances of the right wing of any political party calling for strike action that will cause hundreds of thousands of company employees to have their travel-to-work and homewards return plans disrupted. These innocent working people, who are neither one side of the dispute nor the other side, are those who have been referred to most accurately as being "collateral damage" on this website by a website member who appears to have no particular axe to grind.

Who is it who seem to view the area of the Northern franchise in what is viewed as the heartland of the Labour Party with many of the large cities of the North, as a target for future industrial action?

As with any industrial action by any union, strikes are usually the last resort. You never ever hear about any disputes that are settled without industrial action because it's not news worthy. To me the government has set out its stall with regards to the railways. It doesn't like the fact that railway unions actually defend their members vigorously. I have friends who work in retail who are members of USDAW. They absolutely hate the way their union just basically accepts anything their management hand out. They have said to me in the past that I'm very lucky to have a union like ASLEF and they wish USDAW was more like ASLEF. The government doesn't like the fact that the railway unions defend their members. And to me that means the government doesn't like the fact that railway workers still have decent wages, pensions and working conditions. Without unions it would be a race to the bottom.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As with any industrial action by any union, strikes are usually the last resort. You never ever hear about any disputes that are settled without industrial action because it's not news worthy. To me the government has set out its stall with regards to the railways. It doesn't like the fact that railway unions actually defend their members vigorously. I have friends who work in retail who are members of USDAW. They absolutely hate the way their union just basically accepts anything their management hand out. They have said to me in the past that I'm very lucky to have a union like ASLEF and they wish USDAW was more like ASLEF. The government doesn't like the fact that the railway unions defend their members. And to me that means the government doesn't like the fact that railway workers still have decent wages, pensions and working conditions. Without unions it would be a race to the bottom.

A well worded response to my posting, but one that makes no mention whatsoever of the "third-party collateral damage" rail passengers that I specifically made reference to, unfortunately.

Is it far easier for the rail unions to cause disruptions to the travel-to-work patterns of those dispute-unconnected rail commuters than to have any method of disruption to the government to which your posting makes reference?

 

[Dave1987]

A well worded response to my posting, but one that makes no mention whatsoever of the "third-party collateral damage" rail passengers that I specifically made reference to, unfortunately.

Is it far easier for the RMT to cause disruptions to the travel-to-work patterns of those dispute-unconnected rail commuters than to have any method of disruption to the government to which your posting makes reference?

So what about the Lufthansa pilots I referenced earlier, or the postal strike, the walk out by prison staff? All of them had consequences for various people. With any strikes there are always people affected in some way shape or form.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So what about the Lufthansa pilots I referenced earlier, or the postal strike, the walk out by prison staff? All of them had consequences for various people. With any strikes there are always people affected in some way shape or form.

Are you seriously asking me to believe that any of the examples that you have shown above bear any relation whatsoever to the actual daily numbers of rail commuters that have had their travel-to-work patterns disrupted by this rail industrial dispute?

 

[fowler9]

Are you seriously asking me to believe that any of the examples that you have shown above bear any relation whatsoever to the actual daily numbers of rail commuters that have had their travel-to-work patterns disrupted by this rail industrial dispute?

What is the point in striking if it doesn't impact on the customers of the company you are striking against? Surely the employers of the customers affected will understand unless of course they are a shower of scum bags to.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I am getting heartily sick of this attitude that you should just be grateful to have a job. We live in one of the richest economies in the world and it is slipping too far towards thinking we live to work instead of that we work to live.

 

[Dave1987]

Are you seriously asking me to believe that any of the examples that you have shown above bear any relation whatsoever to the actual daily numbers of rail commuters that have had their travel-to-work patterns disrupted by this rail industrial dispute?

They were merely examples of disputes and strikes in other industries. That's all! Paul I think you need to stop assuming that anyone who is a member of a union is ramping socialist. I believe in a free and fair economy. What I do not believe in is when companies and government try to exploit staff, erode terms & conditions and pay, and try to destroy unions rather than working with them. The bearded billionaire once said 'look after your staff and your staff will look after you customers'. More and more nowadays that sentiment seems to be being ignored. Staff are simply a payroll number and are not valued by those at the top. Some people have to work a 60 hr week just to make ends meet while others put in a few hours then go down the golf course for a round. Our economy sucks at the moment. Mrs May promised to be the PM for all people a few months ago, yet her government is rapidly back-pedalling against that right now.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

The Beeb have sent two reporters undercover into the Amazon system and shown what conditions they are expected to work under. The latest ploy is to categorise their Amazon Logistics drivers are all considered self employed so they aren't entitled to the minimum wage, breaks, holiday or sick pay. Many companies are trying to find ways around the employment rules, or weakening the T&C's of employees. Thankfully the railways have strong unions to stop this ridiculous exploitation happening.

there is a lot of debate over the tropic of self employed delivery drivers ... but while substitution is allowed and so on ...

ironically the tech has made the role more like employed becasue the handheld devices which 'aid' route planning ( and i nthe case of some couriers send emails / texts to the customer with ETA) have given the courier far more control of the driver than the old days when they waved the driver off at 0730 and barrign disasters didn't see or hear from them until they returned with their collections at tea time

My mrs has paid into her pension pot ever since she started working full time. She recently received a letter from her company saying that they are "modernising" the pension scheme by closing down the old one and opening a new one and transferring all employees to the new one. Needless to say the new one is far far less generous than the old one and she stands to lose out on thousands when she retires. So it seems even those who do start paying into a pension as soon as they can are poor as well!

'closing' the scheme or closing the scheme ?
is the loss percieved ( based o nthe original terms of the pension ) or actual ( current fund is being moved into a lesser performing vehicle )?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What is the point in striking if it doesn't impact on the customers of the company you are striking against? Surely the employers of the customers affected will understand unless of course they are a shower of scum bags to.

Are not "the customers of the affected TOC" other working people, rather than some obscure references to what seems to imply those who shop in the Houses of Mammon. The employers of the affected companies will have no love for the RMT disruption to their companies,

Have "scum bags" been on sale during the recent "Black Friday" affair, as I note that being from the Merseyside area, you will surely have seen the amount of "tidal scum" that regularly comes ashore when the tide decides to visit the wide beaches of Southport" which could be used to clear away much of this by means of "scum bags"...

I am most grateful indeed for expanding my already wide knowledge of collective nouns by informing me of "a shower of scum bags". Who says that Merseyside cannot still teach the world..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They were merely examples of disputes and strikes in other industries. That's all! Paul I think you need to stop assuming that anyone who is a member of a union is ramping socialist.

I have really enjoyed our posting jousting of late and seriously speaking, I fully understand your expressed opinions. I did have to laugh though when you referred to "ramping socialist", as I am sure that you meant to say "rampant socialist"

A most arcane dictionary understanding of the word "ramping" is one that describes the action of rearing up on hind legs as seen in Meerkats.