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Train Companies "Rip Off Customers"

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F Great Eastern

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http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Bu...sengers_With_High_Fare_Prices_Says_MPs_Report

Gotta say that there seems to be a lot of FUD in that, such as taking hours to find the best deal? What's so hard about typing where you want to go to and from into a booking engine and selecting the days, and then you see all the fares? I just booked a ticket for 10 pounds return advance in under 30 seconds? If you can book a flight you can book a train ticket no?

Also I guess what is starting to annoy me is since the collapse of NXEC, everyone is getting tarred with the same brush, and from some of the press I've read since, you'd think everyone charges for seat reservations, and has the same problems when there are some operators who are doing a damn good job, but from all the press you'd think that all the issues with NXEC are common across the industry and everyone is doing as badly.

Yes we do have problems and yes there needs to be improvements, but at the moment it seems to be a culture of blame, panic disgrace which has started to go a little over the top.
 
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F Great Eastern

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See the thing about Bob Crowe first and foremost he is a union leader who's number one target is renationalisation, it has nothing to do with the rights of the passengers, and the champion of passenger rights that I've seen him call himself on a number of times, he may come across saying this on TV, but the reason he wants nationalisation is for the benefits it will bring his members and the work practices that blighted the effiency of British Rail towards the end when it was at it's weakest.

The fact is for every little speech and exagerated thing he says he's hoping to persuade more people into believing what he is saying, which ultimately means that his target gets ever more closer, nothing to do with helping the passengers out, and I can see to a degree it is working. But his motives are not to improve the experience for me or you or the average commuter, more for the people working in the industry, after all, he is representing his members, not the passengers, but by appearing to do both it does increase support for him, which makes things more likely to happen.

There are good and bad points about privatisation, but if you spoke to Bob Crowe you'd think that nowhere was a success and nothing has improved, thats simply a message hw wants to get accross to the masses, and since the collapse of NXEC a lot of people have bought it. There are so many people I know who believe everywhere is like NXEC because of the stuff Crowe spouts, and thats not good for anyone as it drives business away.
 

mumrar

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The other thing about Bob Crow is he doesn't have an 'e' at the end of his surname :-P
 

F Great Eastern

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I thought so too :)

But I saw the other poster put an e on so I decided maybe I was wrong, I looked through my other posts and I refered to him correctly - My bad!
 

Mojo

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And in other news... the Pope is Catholic.
 

MCR247

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http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Bu...sengers_With_High_Fare_Prices_Says_MPs_Report

Gotta say that there seems to be a lot of FUD in that, such as taking hours to find the best deal? What's so hard about typing where you want to go to and from into a booking engine and selecting the days, and then you see all the fares? I just booked a ticket for 10 pounds return advance in under 30 seconds? If you can book a flight you can book a train ticket no?

Yes, but you can also find cheaper tickets by splitting half way andf stuff, which takes more than 30 seconds :roll:
 

Aictos

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And in other news... the Pope is Catholic.

No really, now that is a shock! :roll:

I for one like to see the railways nationalised again not just because I'm staff or because I'm following a union leader blindly, I just feel it could be managed better then it is at the moment.

The BR model although had some faults was far simpler then the fragmented railway we have today.

With a confusing range of tickets that only staff selling tickets can understand, I've always thought that all customer facing staff should be trained in tickets regardless of if they're platform staff, booking office staff or information staff so the passenger could approach any member of staff and be assured that they have the right ticket.

I'm still waiting on my TOC to follow this though despite them saying it's a good idea, as only revenue staff "need" to know at the moment.
 

daccer

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I dont think a company that has margins of less than 5% can be accused of ripping off anyone. The TOC's have little wiggle room for making huge profits as so much of their income is regulated by Govt. The issue everyone seems to be missing as they slam the operators and actually the Govt as well is that rail is doing well. It isnt perfect but it is better than it was. Investment is massive and all the key indicators seem to be on an upward curve. sure it is expensive but what can be done - someone has to pay for the upgrades. Govt currently pays for about half of all rail costs - if they paid more so that fares were cheaper then taxpayers would have to pay more and then you would see non rail users kicking up a stink. Cutting TOC profit margins to free up cash is not viable at such low levels.

The only real way to bring down fares is to cut wastage on the network. Costs are too high - how can a simple station cost 5 million to build. This may be Health and safety at work but it is a fact that costs are spiralling out of control. I can tell you now that if you hit the TOC's so that margins fall below 3% they will simply stop bidding for franchises as the ROI is simply not worth it. The less competition the less investment is made and we go to back to the old days of managed decline. If we are to have a privatised railway then you must expect TOC's to do all they can to make money - it is the Govt's job to regulate them - they will not self - regulate, they are businesses not charities!!
 

jon0844

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I prefer to ignore Bob Crow for that very reason; he only has one real purpose in life. In fact, although I don't wish to try and suggest any sort of link, he reminds me of Nick Griffin and the way the BNP say one thing and mean another.

However, buying the cheapest ticket is not as easy as finding a cheap flight. You may think you've got the best deal (and if you're happy, who's to say there's a problem?) but splitting tickets and playing clever games shows up the current ticketing system as the mess it is.

I am not sure on the exact solution, but ticketing does need to be looked at and maybe scrapped and started again from scratch. It'll never happen though, so we may as well just continue to moan and ask on here how to get the best prices - and always think that we've been ripped off in the back of our minds.
 

F Great Eastern

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Oh there are flaws across the network with ticketing restricting for sure, I'm not disputing that, but the advance fares that are avaliable are generally vey very good value, and you'll never get cheaper than these from what I've experienced, however when advance fares are not avaliable and for walk up fares I agree that sometimes it can get confusing.

There is a well known trick in East Anglia going from Ipswich to London that involves splitting your trip into three parts, 2x day singles to Colchester and a return from Colchester to London, the reason being that the peak restrictions from Colchester to London are far less restrictive than those from Ipswich, so if you split your tickets you can get greater freedom without having to pay for a Anytime ticket.

I don't know if this is the same now, but it used to be a few years ago and was something I always did. It also meant I could avoud the 170s and the MK3s all the way which were a disgrace in the summer when they were introduced as the Aircon was broke :)
 

Metroland

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I dont think a company that has margins of less than 5% can be accused of ripping off anyone.

Indeed, well it's one the great myths Bob Crow and the media like to put about, although I think there is a perception problem. There are some strange ticket prices, and some of them are so expensive I do wonder if they are worth having. Nevertheless, standard fares have increased on average 13.6% since 1995.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/rolling-c5-fares.pdf

80% of users travel on reduced priced tickets, total passenger revenue was £5.5 billion for 1.2 billion passenger journeys.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/rolling-c1-railusage.pdf

£5.5 billion sounds like a lot of money, and it its, but it's an industry that employs 159,000*, runs 20,000 passenger trains per day carrying an average of 3 million people. But how does that compare to other companies:

British Airways: £9 billion
Tesco: £59.4 billion
Marks and Spencer (UK) £8.1 billion
Vodaphone £35.5 billion

In other words, the whole industry is quite a small part of the economy, certainly over £150 billion is spent on the road transport every year although that carries more passengers, its only more economic with 3 people or more to a car in terms of cost per mile on average. But unless fares are low enough, people will not use the trains, so in many ways, some fares on some routes are kept artificially low. The real problem is now the industry has lost control of unit costs, and the government want tax payers to spend less. You could reduce fares through productivity and efficiency, but all to often the unions want pay rises and shareholders want dividends. You could subsidise fares more, but many would complain. Indeed, if you have overloaded trains, its probably a reflection (in some cases) fares are to low. Having said, that the public would not see it that way, and want to use transport when they want it, not when some official allows them, either in terms of price or capacity. This applies to all transport, indeed some ways more roads where congestion is a problem in and around dense urban areas. Here the public want:

Unlimited road space, where there is none available, they do not like attractive public transport subsidised, such as trams/rail. They do not like bus lanes and perceive buses as low class. They do not like paying high fares, especially if they don't get a seat. And constantly compare petrol prices with PT fares. They also perceive rail time keeping as poor, even though road reliability is less.

I think the perception problem comes from several sources:

Comparisons with petrol price and train fares:

Some of these issues are dealt with in P38 http://www.cfit.gov.uk/docs/2008/cipto/pdf/cipto-tn3.pdf

Some data from the RAC, reproduced in Table 6, demonstrates the difficulties
faced in dealing with issues of perception. In terms of journey time, the
average commuter drives alone in his/her car and their 14-mile journey takes
them about 25 minutes, of which eight could be saved if there were no
congestion. However, if they were to go on public transport, they estimate
that it would have taken them more than three times as long – although a
quarter admitted to not knowing how long it would take.

There is even greater ignorance about cost. Although car drivers think it costs
about £3.20 to commute (around £0.23 per mile) compared with £4.00 for a
public transport journey, nearly half have no idea how much it really costs
either in their car or by public transport.

Typical breakdowns of costs are shown on P36. And if you think buses are any better, the prices have risen even much. There is a comparison on P43.

While these perceptions continue along with very expensive open return tickets, its no wonder the public think its reality - something that Crow tries to capitalise on even though every year he tries to secure above inflation pay rises for his members.

This will be an ongoing problem, as the CIT concludes:

Road user charging has the benefit of reinforcing the true costs of motoring to
the community as a whole and ending the situation where road space is
perceived to be free at the point of use.

Meanwhile, the task of ‘squaring the circle’ between the competing influences
of rail resource requirement, the demand for travel and the ability and
willingness of the Treasury and the taxpayer to provide funding to the
industry, is likely to remain an extremely difficult issue. Ultimately, it is a
political judgement, though experience in the UK suggests that it is rarely a
good idea to pretend that the costs of providing a service are lower than they
really are. On this basis, we may expect divergent trends to continue, pending the
introduction of a different way of paying for the externalities of motoring.

*http://www.cfit.gov.uk/docs/2008/cipto/pdf/cipto-tn3.pdf
P73
 
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Metroland

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Yep, £4.51 to be exact P12 http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/rolling-c1-railusage.pdf

I think the real average is less in the north of England and Scotland plus Wales. London and the SE tends to be highest. Don't forget this is the mean average, while some obviously pay a lot more, most pay a lot less. This is a reflection of the number of journeys in and around cities. This is why the real money is in intercity train travel, where the trains are fast and journeys are longer and you are moving a lot of people over distances.
 
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EM2

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That's interesting! I also notice from that report that total passenger kilometres was 49 billion.

So, 49bn divided by the 1.2bn journeys, means the average journey (which we've already costed at £4.51) is 41km. So to travel 1km costs 11p (£4.51/41km)!

That's bloody good value!
 

scandal

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It is very easy to look back and comment on ticket prices between the last days of BR and current day, this is something of an unfair comparison considering the amount of inflation we have experienced under the "boom" years of the credit economy. Passenger numbers have continued to grow across the industry and there has been little investment (arguably by the TOCs) to improve capacity to accomdate these extra users. The basics of economics dictate that with an increase in demand and a static level of supply the price or equlibrium will therefore raise in order to try and starve off demand. There has been, because of privatisation a shift of the type of tickets they want to sell, unfortunatly in my eyes we are moving away from the turn up and go nature of the railway tickets and moving more towards advanced purcahsing. Now this can indeed benefit us and the TOCs, for us it means great deals providing we are able to be flexible and for the TOCs it means guranteed revenue that they don't have to share, where they would with standard turn up and go tickets. This is very much following the airline model, incidentally have we seen any reports on increasing cost of stealth taxes and prices on tickets when flying with the airlines or are we sitll convinced FREE seats exist compared to £200 rail fares (which is simply not comparing like with like...!) Comparing advanced purcahsed London to Edinburgh rail and airline (including taxes and taxi money to the airports to the city centres) I'd be interested to see which came first. We also have the whole "its the cost of petrol" £20 vs £40 argument, which simply isnt true considering the cost of road tax, insurance and servicing, as well as MoT tests.

In regard to Mojos post about whats changed since 2006, ticket types have now standardised to Anytime, Offpeak and Advanced which has meant that fare prices have stealthy increased as the cheaper tickets have disappeared and more restrictions have been imposed, certainly comparing the CDR to the Offpeak. The price of the Anytime has also ballooned taking in the highest costs of the standard day tickets which usually were able to get round with savers. Whilst with the advent of privatisation under the operation of New Labour we have seen the railways flooded with cash it again stinks of another missed opportunity by the industry (along the lines of the 1955 Modernisation plan wastes) and to me considering the amount of investment we have seen we are unlikely to see any more anytime soon, certainly on the scale the indsutry has had which is a shame just when rail is becoming a popular alternative.

The sooner we realise the railways need joined up thinking to provide a public service as an alternative to other modes of transport such as aviataion or cars, the better.
 
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daccer

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The network is so complex and diverse that it will always be a Curates egg and you simply have to try and get the head line figures moving in the right direction. Averages matter as trying to please everyone is going to be impossible. All the headline figures are going in the right direction and that is all the powers that be can will point to - the network will never be fair and equable in whatever guise it takes - as a nationalised network it had massive discrepencies in service provision.

I dont live in the UK anymore but fly back and visit regulalry. I have to get from Heathrow to Kettering and my trip is always via train and always off peak. My experience is universally good - even the stations I use (paddington, St Pancras and Kettering) are in good nick. For some poor sod stuck on a Pacer from an unmanned station into Man Vic etc they will have a v ery different perception. I suppose this is why rail forums exist - it is these discrepencies in service that provide us with so much to talk about.

As a child of the 70's and 80's I merely say be careful what you wish for - I see many calling for a return to BR - nationalised industries are a dying breed - if we go back to govt owned businessed we are swimming upstream on our own.

So how do you measure success when statistics are so malleable - you cant! all you can do is go on your own personal experience. I decided to do an ALR last year to see if my observations are correct. I had a great week and did a random selection of TOC's in all 3 countries covered by the ALR on a wide selection of stock. My view on the network compared to what it was during the 80's when i was with BR -- no comparison - i thought it was excellent and with a little fine tuning would be something to be really proud of.
 

jon0844

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When the media likes to compare train travel with flying, I have to say that I've just booked a flight to Denmark with Easyjet, and besides stinging me for nearly £10 to use a credit card at the end (even a debit card is £3 extra!), I've had to pay £8 for a bag each way - and now I see that at Stansted there are machines charging 50p a bag to check you're within the weight allowance for hand luggage!

I'm surprised BAA hasn't started to charge for the toilets on the ground yet - let alone Ryanair joking about doing it in the air.

If I went over by 1g on my hand luggage, I'd be charged a cool £15 extra on Ryanair and if I took a second bag (e.g. some food or something taken from duty free) that would be another fee - probably £15-25!

So, unless you're travelling with nothing, flying on the low cost airlines has moved way beyond the simple ticket price.

Ryanair made some £600m on their airline tickets, and nearly £150m from the extra charges for check-in, bags, priority boarding.. Sort of makes NXEC's attempt to charge for a seat reservation seem quite tame in comparison.
 

me123

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I saw a graph on BBC's website, comparing regulated and unregulated fares to inflation. See the graph at the bottom of this page.

It suggests that the regulated fares are actually rising at a rate below inflation. The problem lies really with the unregulated fares, the Advance and Off Peak tickets. Based on this graph, the increased fares on season tickets, for example, can't really be moaned about, as they're actually rising at a rate less than inflation. Of course, I'm not sure what's happening now that we're in recession but we'll have to see.
 

jon0844

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If they didn't do silly things like introduce a £13 minimum on a Network Railcard, doing away with almost all the discount (a normal ticket for my wife is £16 - so that's £3 off because of the minimum) then fares could actually be a lot lower for those travelling off-peak.

Those travelling peak may well be the ones buying a season and saving more money that way.

It's not just railway fares going up though; I remember my car park in 2006 being £3.50 peak, £1.00 off-peak. Now it's £5.30 peak and £2.00 peak - quite a serious hike - and there are car parks charging much more.

I now take a bus (which costs about £1.50 a day, but it's bolted on to my season) and that's actually better for me - but not everyone has that option if they want to get to the station and work quickly, especially if there are changes of bus.
 

Metroland

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From what I've seen in various documents, the unregulated fares like first class have really gone up, but many of the advanced tickets are cheaper now than in BR days, even taking inflation into account. That said, we all know about extensions of the peak.

Fares like the megatrain ones and £10 London-Leeds just didn't exist in BR days. And travelling in the peak on BR wasn't cheap either.

If the railway fares weren't in the right ball park there wouldn't be the highest passenger numbers since 1946. I think though, to a user that is not used to the system, walk on fares can be eye watering.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8170000/8170126.stm
 

me123

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To be honest, I think we should get rid of regulated and unregulated fares. I'd regulate them all, tying them in with inflation. It's been proven that under the current system, rail companies will really hike the off peak fares in an attempt to maximise their profits. I believe that all over regulation would improve things, although I believe that fare freezes at the very least on many of the more expensive tickets would also be nice for passengers.
 

Metroland

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Like I've said before though, TOCs have little enough freedom as it is. So what's the point of having it in the private sector apart from an accounting exercise, especially if you want to take away the very last freedom pretty much they have?

As a TOC you get to choose your livery and seat fabrics, but most of your timetable and stock procurement is laid down by the DfT or controlled by Network rail, you already can't control fares much in the peak, you probably contract your maintenance out and lease the trains, and don't have an awful lot of choice about that, your employee T&Cs are highly regulated and you are under constant threat from the unions, you can't invest much because you might be stripped of your short franchise any second, so risk taking is near nill, other than painting stations (which you don't own) and changing uniforms most TOCs are just admin running a bunch of contracts in reality. Even your day-to-day train performance is highly dependent upon network rail, who hold all the regulation and most of the incident response cards.

Running a TOC must be the most regulated business in the country outside the public sector!
 
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