Train Crash near Santiago de Compostela, Spain.

[edwin_m]

Don't we already know that he was on the phone to the control centre telling them he was going too fast?

 

[Zoidberg]

Don't we already know that he was on the phone to the control centre telling them he was going too fast?

I think we now know, officially, that he was on the phone, but not about what.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I think we now know, officially, that he was on the phone, but not about what.

A thought on this. If it is proved that he was talking to other members of staff about something that wasn't considered an emergency (or it is proved there was no reason for him to be using his phone at all) and that person(s) are proved to have known he was driving at the time will this mean any charges are brought against those persons as well?

 

[68000]

From the BBC report
'"Minutes before the train came off the tracks he received a call on his work phone to get indications on the route he had to take to get to Ferrol. From the content of the conversation and background noise it seems that the driver consulted a map or paper document," a court statement said.

The above makes no sense. He is the train driver, surely he knows where he is heading and knows the route? Does it indicate that the driver has become confused about where he was on the route? Surely the safest course of action is to stop the train

 

[CC 72100]

The above makes no sense. He is the train driver, surely he knows where he is heading and knows the route? Does it indicate that the driver has become confused about where he was on the route? Surely the safest course of action is to stop the train

Apparently he'd been driving the route for a year, so yes, one would not expect this to be an issue.

In all honestly, it seems that the more info that comes out, the worse it sounds.

 

[neonison]

BBC report "black box now opened" : "Spain train driver 'on phone' at time of deadly crash"

Link to above is here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23507348

 

[Bungle73]

Is this really an issue? I mean it's not the same as being in a car is it? And it's not like he was on the phone chatting to his mates.

But why was he using a phone to communicate with his rail company? Don't they have radios on these trains?

 

[TBY-Paul]

BBC report "black box now opened" : "Spain train driver 'on phone' at time of deadly crash"

Link to above is here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23507348

Although you've picked up on the headline

"Spain train driver 'on phone' at time of deadly crash"

and as a headline it sounds awful.

But, reading the report it states he "received" a call for whatever reason. Is this normal? Do Head Offices ring drivers? If they do then opens the possibility that he may have been distracted by the phone call and loss concentration. Which although it doesn't absolve the driver of responsibility, it could be a mitigating circumstance.

 

[brianthegiant]

Seems that what is being issued to the press continues to focus on the driver.

Given that we wont know until after some lengthy & detailed investigations whether all the safety-critical systems were functioning correctly, this all seems like outrageous scapegoating.

Putting 'accidents' down to human error is seriously old-hat. It's well understood by now that people make mistakes under pressure or adverse situations. A more modern approach is to accept that systems affecting the safety of large numbers of people should be designed to prevent human error AFARP. So whether the driver made a mistake or not, he is unlikely to be 100% responsible in my view. The responsibility of the company regards not just engineered systems but also things like training, alcohol & drugs screening, line management, etc, etc.

 

[DD]

Is this really an issue? I mean it's not the same as being in a car is it? And it's not like he was on the phone chatting to his mates.

But why was he using a phone to communicate with his rail company? Don't they have radios on these trains?

Your not even allowed a mobile phone switched on in a cab in the UK and if a driver is caught they will face disciplinary action.

 

[neonison]

A fair proportion of the HS line approaching Santiago is in a series of tunnels.

Mobile 'phone reception is usually not possible unless they are provided with additional transmitters.

Were these tunnels (like I believe those on HEX) provided with transmitters for this purpose?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Given that we won't know until after some lengthy & detailed investigations whether all the safety-critical systems were functioning correctly, this all seems like outrageous scapegoating.

Putting 'accidents' down to human error is seriously old-hat.

Spot-on.

That is the basis for safety thinking and the railways were one of the very first industries to embrace the philosophy of eliminating the risks through engineering controls.

 

[Eagle]

The above makes no sense. He is the train driver, surely he knows where he is heading and knows the route? Does it indicate that the driver has become confused about where he was on the route? Surely the safest course of action is to stop the train

It might be to do with which lines or platforms he was being routed onto. This also explains why he apparently was getting the track diagrams out too.

 

[starrymarkb]

I wonder if 'phone' might refer to Cab-to-Shore radio (GSM-R) rather then a consumer device?

 

[68000]

I would expect the phone to be GSM-R but then it is lax safety for a normal priority call to to made to the driver, I would expect a text message to contact the signaller or controller and the driver calls when it is safe to do so. Of course, the controller can issue an emergency stop command if they think there is the need to do so.

If it is a normal mobile phone issued to the driver then that is crazy

 

[D1009]

I would expect the phone to be GSM-R but then it is lax safety for a normal priority call to to made to the driver, I would expect a text message to contact the signaller or controller and the driver calls when it is safe to do so. Of course, the controller can issue an emergency stop command if they think there is the need to do so.

If it is a normal mobile phone issued to the driver then that is crazy

Does RENFE have GSM-R? I'm not sure other countries have the same attitude regarding mobile phone use as the UK, I remember being lucky enough to sit at the front of an ICE3 from Koln to Amsterdam with a forward view through the driver's cab, and for the first 10 minutes or so of the journey the driver was on his mobile phone continuously.

 

[starrymarkb]

It's a new line with ECTS so almost certainly will have GSM-R for transmitting movement authorities to the train

 

[WatcherZero]

Seems that what is being issued to the press continues to focus on the driver.

Given that we wont know until after some lengthy & detailed investigations whether all the safety-critical systems were functioning correctly, this all seems like outrageous scapegoating.

Putting 'accidents' down to human error is seriously old-hat. It's well understood by now that people make mistakes under pressure or adverse situations. A more modern approach is to accept that systems affecting the safety of large numbers of people should be designed to prevent human error AFARP. So whether the driver made a mistake or not, he is unlikely to be 100% responsible in my view. The responsibility of the company regards not just engineered systems but also things like training, alcohol & drugs screening, line management, etc, etc.

Its in Renfes interest for it to be driver error, their bidding for a multibillion poound contract in Brazil and one of the requirements is the company has had no fatal accidents in the preceding five years.

That said however It does look like driver error, hes admitted he was speeding and passed two speed limits, he only started breaking when the curve was right in front of him, hes said that he didnt realise where he was on the line (hes been driving it for two years) and more recent reports is he was taking a phonecall from dispatch and looking at paper maps while driving.

 

[68000]

The line does have GSM-R and I expect the train to have GSM-R as well

http://www.kapsch.net/KapschGroup/press/kcc/kcc_101109_pr

'The project includes the deployment of a turnkey GSM-R access network and the infrastructure for public mobile operators (GSM and UMTS) on the Galician High Speed Line from Ourense to Santiago de Compostela, the capital of Galicia (88 km).'

 

[Quickthorn]

Seems that what is being issued to the press continues to focus on the driver.

Given that we wont know until after some lengthy & detailed investigations whether all the safety-critical systems were functioning correctly, this all seems like outrageous scapegoating.

Putting 'accidents' down to human error is seriously old-hat. It's well understood by now that people make mistakes under pressure or adverse situations. A more modern approach is to accept that systems affecting the safety of large numbers of people should be designed to prevent human error AFARP. So whether the driver made a mistake or not, he is unlikely to be 100% responsible in my view. The responsibility of the company regards not just engineered systems but also things like training, alcohol & drugs screening, line management, etc, etc.

Yes, I'd agree with this. Also, if I remember rightly, Spanish railway officials seemed very quick to dismiss any question of technical problems.

See the last two paragraphs of this report:

Guardian: spain-train-driver-admits-reckless

The days since the accident have seen the chiefs of the Spanish state rail company, Renfe, and the network operator, Adif, put the blame squarely on the driver. The view the courts take of the crash could have important financial repercussions.

Renfe is among the firms bidding for a €13bn contract to build a high-speed rail link in Brazil. The terms of the tender reportedly exclude firms involved in the running of high-speed train systems where an accident has taken place in the preceding five years.

Edit: Looks like watcherZero's put pretty much the same thing while I was typing!

 

[68000]

That said however It does look like driver error, hes admitted he was speeding and passed two speed limits, he only started breaking when the curve was right in front of him, hes said that he didnt realise where he was on the line (hes been driving it for two years) and more recent reports is he was taking a phonecall from dispatch and looking at paper maps while driving.

That indicates unsafe practices from RENFE as well as direct responsibilty of the driver. Not sure how this can be PR'ed to be not a RENFE crash

 

[DD]

That indicates unsafe practices from RENFE as well as direct responsibilty of the driver. Not sure how this can be PR'ed to be not a RENFE crash

and no report of over speed protection either!

 

[yorkie]

I think this raises more questions:-

http://news.uk.msn.com/world/train-crash-driver-on-the-phone

....Driver Francisco Jose Garzon Amo, was talking on the phone to an official of national rail company Renfe when the crash happened and apparently was consulting a paper document at the time. Garzon was provisionally charged on Sunday with multiple counts of negligent homicide.

The driver received a call on his work phone in the cabin, not his personal mobile, to tell him what approach to take toward his final destination. The Renfe employee on the telephone "appears to be a controller," the court said.

"From the contents of the conversation and from the background noise it seems that the driver (was) consulting a plan or similar paper document," the court said....

Surely that's not normal procedure?

Wouldn't the "approach" to take simply be a matter of following route/theatre indicator displays? Why the need for a phone call?

 

[High Dyke]

Ironically the week before the accident my local paper ran a feature extolling the virtues of holidaying in Santiago de Compostela.

 

[Eagle]

Wouldn't the "approach" to take simply be a matter of following route/theatre indicator displays? Why the need for a phone call?

It may have been an unusual manoeuvre that the route indicators couldn't display. This would also explain why the driver needed to consult the track diagram despite presumably being familiar with the route.

(Actually, out of interest, are we talking in-cab signalling for this particular stretch of line?)

 

[edwin_m]

Possibly an unusal route that the driver might not have signed for? Assuming such procedures exist in Spain.

 

[Giugiaro]

Voice communication between traffic control/station/shunter and the driver is normal in Portugal and I believe it does so in Spain.

A normal communication that can be done between the traffic control/station and the driver can be solely a change in the platform at a specific station or a certain branch to be done in the opposite direction (to overtake another train for example). This is done via the Rádio Solo-Comboio (ground-train radio) and may use both the Rádio Solo-Comboio antennas or GSM-R.

Before this system was implemented, drivers could only know about changes in their run either in stations or by forced stops in guarded level-crossings by a specific type of paper form indicating new instructions. If a train needed to be stopped at a specific place and there was no way to warn it, one or several firecrackers were placed in the track. If there was no way to warn the driver... September 11, 1985

 

[carriageline]

Very dangerous practice it would seem. Over here, it seems TOCs would do a lot to remove distractions from a driver. Never mind ringing them when travelling at high speed, exiting an auto section, approaching a curve. IIRC that system allows the RENFE operative to see where the train is too.

I don't really think the driver is much to blame here really.

 

[Antman]

Following reports of the driver being on the phone LBC radio sent a reporter armed with binoculars down to Clapham Junction this morning to see how many train drivers he could see on the phone..........the answer was none!

The only train drivers I seen 'on the phone' are tube drivers making a PA announcement whilst on the move.

 

[jon0844]

Given it wasn't illegal to use a mobile phone in Spain in a train, I wonder how the people there have taken to this 'news' compared to here? The UK press has reported he was on his phone, and most people seeing that headline on a news ticket, news headline or Twitter, will just assume he was on his personal mobile chatting to mates - and given you can't use your mobile when driving, conclude he must be totally guilty.

To me, it sounds amazing that a driver would be called and asked anything to distract him. I'd say that this just proves the railway must shoulder a fair amount (possibly the majority) of blame here. Not least for having safety systems that didn't apply for the entire route, and a tight curve and massive speed drop that was in the unprotected section!

As has been said on here, and shown in countless documentaries (and this will no doubt feature in due course), it's a series of events that create a disaster. So, already it seems we've got two major things that aren't down to the driver: 1) Lack of protection, 2) A phone call made to the driver.

More worrying, perhaps, besides seeing today that they were running trains alongside bits of wreckage left behind, is that I am not sure what systems are now in place to prevent it happening again?

 

[Giugiaro]

Very dangerous practice it would seem. Over here, it seems TOCs would do a lot to remove distractions from a driver.

In Portugal and Spain it is mandatory to maintain contact between the train and the ground.

In Spain, the Transcantábrico uses a ground-train radio and two mobile phones to always keep contact with ground.


http://youtu.be/5DA-z5Y2fyc?t=8m


In Portugal only Rádio Solo-Comboio communications are allowed since this system is widespread in the country side-by-side with CONVEL. Most communications are simple commands that the Rádio Solo-Comboio has pre-defined, so the driver only has to push a button to answer or say something relevant (I'm stopped; I'm on-the-run; My train broke down; The overhead line isn't working; I'm running late) and the driver can just deviate a call to the ticket inspector, since this last one is also the head of the train.

In Spain there is a microphone installed in the cab that supervises the driver. Things like unauthorised people on the cab, chit-chats between drivers or driver-ticket inspector are recorded and used to penalized whoever was in the cab.