Train Dispatch rules

[Ashley Hill]

That very scenario happened at Castle Cary a couple of years ago. The up direction signals are some way off of the end of the platforms, especially so on the short (3 carriages only) platform 3 used by Weymouth services. It is commonplace there to have an up or down West of England service signalled across in front of a local service so some guards were in the habit of giving '6 bells' to draw up to the signal. However a driver of a 3 car train stopped slightly short with the rear most doors not accommodated. The guard gave '6 bells' and the driver took that as an instruction to draw up to the signal thinking that station duties were complete. For this reason, the unofficial practice of giving '6 bells' towards a red signal was quickly stamped out at the local depots.

But in that scenario of drawing into the platform having stopped short should the guard and driver have agreed how the movement was controlled? As I was told this morning the rule book does not describe 6 as a shunting code only. I admit it is a grey area as neither does it say draw clear of the platform towards a red aspect. Only the instruction we had says that.

At the end of the day you've raised the issue with your manager and they've given you their permission to continue. Just so long as you're aware that such tolerance won't apply everywhere, if, for instance, you were to move to a different part of the country and change TOCs.

I'm well aware other TOCs don't necessarily practice this.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Botley down direction is the example that came to my mind. The signal protecting the single line towards Fareham is about 200m beyond the platform end, so it’s not quite enough for a full length train to sit fully off the platform, but my experience is that down trains almost always run down to the signal if it’s red.

That is correct, personally I would speak to the driver to ensure they’re happy to draw up to the signal before dispatching, but that changed a few months ago and Botley is now considered to be a starter signal so we wait in the platform.

 

[43066]

It used to drive me nuts at Petts Wood when I did four Orpington trips a day, to set the DRA after passing a single yellow into the platform even though I could see the next signal was off for the road around to Bickley. I imagine that is one of the stations being referred to above by ComUtoR. Ladywell being another, where you can see the next signal is off but still have to apply the DRA.

Same here. Then I stopped at Petts Wood one dark and dirty morning, in thick fog, couldn’t see the signal + feather, and it made total sense.

Don’t get me started on “active” DRAs. If you go into a platform on two yellows, you have to set it, or it flashes at you and you can’t take power.

 

[the sniper]

Some people did the 6 bells to draw up to the signal (further than the length of the unit off the platform) around these parts, but I think Management put something out to stop it. Personally, I'd just go for a longer drawn out two in those circumstances, as apposed the normal quick two I'd give everywhere else, to differentiate or break from the norm and acknowledge the situation. Officially meaningless though.

 

[philthetube]

I got told off for saying I would accept 2 at Newton Le Willows on a red and my manager is adamant I should ONLY accept 6. I don't see why but I'm in a tricky position here (and have been given both 2 and 6 in the last couple of weeks); if I get pulled for it in a download or a ride out I don't much fancy my chances of arguing my case.

I would ask your manager for an definitive answer in writing and stick to it, ask that the decision be posted and if not mention to the union have a word with your guard on pick up if they are not aware of this, it is all about covering your botty.

 

[Right Away]

But in that scenario of drawing into the platform having stopped short should the guard and driver have agreed how the movement was controlled? As I was told this morning the rule book does not describe 6 as a shunting code only. I admit it is a grey area as neither does it say draw clear of the platform towards a red aspect. Only the instruction we had says that.

I'm well aware other TOCs don't necessarily practice this.

It would indeed have been sensible after having closed the local door to have picked up the cab to cab to agree on what to do next. It just highlights that even though the guard thought that the unofficial '6 bells' buzzer code meant one thing, the driver interpreted it as something else having received such there on previous occasions.

One thing that I am curious about is the following. Let's say there is a 2+4 HST set stopped in the down platform at Worle. The train is being despatched by flag owing to a defective buzzer. The signal protecting Worle Junction is at danger. How do you give the equivalent of '6 bells' in this scenario?

 

[Ashley Hill]

The driver would be looking out so the draw forward handsignal would cover that.

 

[CC 72100]

How do you give the equivalent of '6 bells' in this scenario?

Funny you should mention that, I was on a 2+4 HST (slam door set) in the situation with working D/G comms.

Guard uses 6, driver returns 6. Next thing heard over the PA: "Bing Bong, will the train manager please contact the driver".

There is some sort of thing on the FGW/GWR HSTs whereby 3-3 from the driver will trigger that announcement over the PA. I'm guessing the returning of the 6 was enough to also trigger the announcement.

Guard picks up cab-to-cab handset in the TGS and asks the driver what's up, obviously one couldn't hear the drivers response but the next bit something like "oh yes, I see what I've done, I didn't think of that".

 

[221129]

Funny you should mention that, I was on a 2+4 HST (slam door set) in the situation with working D/G comms.

Guard uses 6, driver returns 6. Next thing heard over the PA: "Bing Bong, will the train manager please contact the driver".

There is some sort of thing on the FGW/GWR HSTs whereby 3-3 from the driver will trigger that announcement over the PA. I'm guessing the returning of the 6 was enough to also trigger the announcement.

Guard picks up cab-to-cab handset in the TGS and asks the driver what's up, obviously one couldn't hear the drivers response but the next bit something like "oh yes, I see what I've done, I didn't think of that".

3-3 is the buzzer signal for Driver to Contact guard or Vice Versa. On HSTs especially that means it will play that message as the guard is unlikely to be at a panel where they can hear it. So the driver has likely left a slight pause when giving 6 to trigger it.

 

[CC 72100]

3-3 is the buzzer signal for Driver to Contact guard or Vice Versa. On HSTs especially that means it will play that message as the guard is unlikely to be at a panel where they can hear it.

Yep, well aware. After the Guard initially gave 3-3 I did turn to the person I was travelling with as we both knew what was coming next!

I can't imagine that was installed when the PA was installed, must be a newer (ie. Last 20 years!) type bolt-on to what is otherwise a very rudimentary and simple PA + D/G comms system. (I only know how to work the thing, I'll let someone else understand the mechanics haha).

 

[eoff]

Thanks for all the discussion on this it was quite interesting. I find it surprising that TOCs have some leeway in application of 'rules' and if these are open to interpretation then they are not clarified at a national level.

Anyway, I also discovered elsewhere that the change in dispatch rules happened after a fatal accident that happened at Paisley Gilmour Street in April 1979.
The new rule required that a guard must “where practicable see that the signal (where provided) is cleared and then indicate to the driver that the train is ready to start”.

I didn't say so when I made my original post but one thing that made me interested in this was a case in 2016 where a train was given the signal to start against a red signal at Tweedbank station (this got some publicity at the time), then I remembered the many times I saw this happen and how the practice seemed to have stopped.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Yep, well aware. After the Guard initially gave 3-3 I did turn to the person I was travelling with as we both knew what was coming next!

I can't imagine that was installed when the PA was installed, must be a newer (ie. Last 20 years!) type bolt-on to what is otherwise a very rudimentary and simple PA + D/G comms system. (I only know how to work the thing, I'll let someone else understand the mechanics haha).

On the ex MML/EMT sets we have there's a similar system where you hold the buzzer for 10 seconds to initiate a similar recording. I somehow managed to "break" it one day when the Zone D button on the PA got stuck in and the message played on a loop for about 10 minutes before it eventually cut out after tripping the system.

 

[DorkingMain]

Some of the suggestions on this thread are greatly concerning, and suggest that there's an urgent need for GWR's op standards to step in and standardise dispatch arrangements.

A number of points:

- Nobody should be using shunting bell signals to give the RA.
- You shouldn't be trying to "fill the gaps" with your own methods of working, especially in situations where the rule book states a specific thing.
- Drivers should not be relying on guards to prevent them from risking a SPAD.
- The safest place for a train to be is in a platform. If dispatching the train means you're going to only move a few coach lengths out of the platform and then be stuck there for an indefinite amount of time, it's almost certainly a better idea to remain in the platform. If you're worried about delay minutes being attributed to you - report these things, including the signal number that was held at danger and what time it cleared.

At the end of the day, these unofficial ways of working aren't a problem until they are a problem, and usually in a catastrophic way.

 

[Ashley Hill]

- Nobody should be using shunting bell signals to give the RA.

The rule book does not state that 6 is a shunting signal. It's draw forward, in the cases mentioned up to a red signal. If it were a shunt being performed then the rule book states that all concerned come to a clear understanding how the movement will be controlled. For those who work in the area how do people feel about giving RA from platform one at Didcot if the banners on and signal red,2 or 6 buzzes?

 

[MotCO]

Firstly I must state that I am not part of the 'rail family', so apologies if I have got anything confused. I have read all these posts with fascination, but one thing that puzzles me is why some 'informal' rules seem to exist. The acid test surely is what would happen if there was a SPAD, and an 'informal' rule had been followed, would the outcome for the driver be worse than if he/she had followed the Rule Book to the letter?

 

[DorkingMain]

The rule book does not state that 6 is a shunting signal. It's draw forward, in the cases mentioned up to a red signal. If it were a shunt being performed then the rule book states that all concerned come to a clear understanding how the movement will be controlled. For those who work in the area how do people feel about giving RA from platform one at Didcot if the banners on and signal red,2 or 6 buzzes?

Draw forward for the purposes of shunting. Not draw forward for the purposes of clearing a train to depart. Shunting is degraded working where there isn't a main signal controlling the movement. Leaving a platform you are signalled into to draw forwards towards another signal is not a shunting movement.

As I said this is really something your Op Standards department should have come down on a while ago. It seems like a situation that will end badly, probably for the crew that make a mistake while doing it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Aug 2020 ==

Firstly I must state that I am not part of the 'rail family', so apologies if I have got anything confused. I have read all these posts with fascination, but one thing that puzzles me is why some 'informal' rules seem to exist. The acid test surely is what would happen if there was a SPAD, and an 'informal' rule had been followed, would the outcome for the driver be worse than if he/she had followed the Rule Book to the letter?

Well, if there was a SPAD on a signal that wasn't a platform starting signal then the guard wouldn't bear any responsibility for that, as such. However, I wouldn't want to be the guard that gave 6 to my driver and then he rolled forward and had a Cat A SPAD, for sure.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Personally I would like to see 6 as standard in such circumstances. If there is then a spad at least the guards in the clear.

 

[PupCuff]

Firstly I must state that I am not part of the 'rail family', so apologies if I have got anything confused. I have read all these posts with fascination, but one thing that puzzles me is why some 'informal' rules seem to exist. The acid test surely is what would happen if there was a SPAD, and an 'informal' rule had been followed, would the outcome for the driver be worse than if he/she had followed the Rule Book to the letter?

It depends what that informal rule was, to be honest, as well as who (which TOC/IM, perhaps even which manager) is investigating, alongside the Driver's safety record. The aim of a SPAD investigation isn't to be a disciplinary investigation, it's a safety investigation to identify the causes. If one of those causes was a wilful breach of the rules, or some other rule breach was identified during investigation then there is going to be some feedback or support to the Driver to ensure their compliance with the relevant rule going forward, though in many cases where the breach was minor this is more likely to be a verbal rebriefing or an action on a Competence Development Plan versus a trip to the job centre.

Informal rules exist for a number of reasons. These could include; the rule has been shoehorned in without a proper assessment of the change leading to a rule which does not work on the ground; the actual rule doesn't work in that particular circumstance and nobody has raised this to be looked into (or has told, say, their Union Rep, who's made 'mhm'-type noises but not told anyone who can actually change it); the person carrying out the task does not fully understand why the rule is necessary and is therefore inclined to skip bits they erroneously think are unnecessary; the person carrying out the task has a less-than-positive attitude towards compliance with rules and thinks they know better; the person carrying out the task used to work for another company or industry who do it that way and has not recognised there is a difference here; the person carrying out the task simply elects to skip over doing it for personal gain (eg an early finish); etc.

 

[DorkingMain]

Personally I would like to see 6 as standard in such circumstances. If there is then a spad at least the guards in the clear.

Well, under the current circumstances if the guard gives 2 bells out of a platform where the signal is not officially a starting signal and the driver SPADs, the guard wouldn't be considered at any sort of fault. If the guard gave 6 and the driver misinterpreted that, there'd be a "fault" situation in terms of not having a clear understanding.

It's certainly an interesting discussion, and I'm not trying to level any blame at anyone here or criticise what you're doing, but it should really come down to a) better defined working practices and b) route training that clearly defines what is and and isn't a starting signal and the official working procedures for each station. Traincrew shouldn't be left trying to fill those gaps in for themselves.

 

[PupCuff]

Personally I would like to see 6 as standard in such circumstances. If there is then a spad at least the guards in the clear.

If the signal isn't a platform starter then the guard is in the clear anyway. There would have to be some horrendous failing of operational knowledge at management level to try to implicate a conductor who has given 2 from a platform where there is no platform starting signal should the driver go on to SPAD and I would hope that that would be picked up at some point within the chain of investigation.

If you give 6 bells as standard to 'draw towards' the next signal after the platform where this is a short distance away, what code do you give if the driver has stopped with the rear door off the platform and you want him to correct his stopping position?

 

[Ashley Hill]

It was explained to me that a TOC can enhance a rule but not over rule it. For example the rule book allows a guard to lead a propelling movement under given circumstances. However a TOC can say our guards cannot propel and insist drivers change ends each time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2020 ==

As mentioned somewhere else on this thread,you'd call him up tell him/her what they've done and agree how to move up probably by giving six i.e as a shunt move.

 

[DorkingMain]

If the signal isn't a platform starter then the guard is in the clear anyway. There would have to be some horrendous failing of operational knowledge at management level to try to implicate a conductor who has given 2 from a platform where there is no platform starting signal should the driver go on to SPAD and I would hope that that would be picked up at some point within the chain of investigation.

If you give 6 bells as standard to 'draw towards' the next signal after the platform where this is a short distance away, what code do you give if the driver has stopped with the rear door off the platform and you want him to correct his stopping position?

We've had a couple of instances of this at my TOC - at one point, the informal procedure was for a guard to give 2-2 (similar to the signal the driver would give to a guard not to release the doors). Of course inevitably, this resulted in the driver hearing the first two bells, giving two back immediately which covered the guard giving the second two and smacking the power in. Another guard gave 6, but the driver was pulling away after he heard the first 2 and didn't give much thought to the other 4 bells.

Official instruction is now that in any stop short situation, the guard contacts the driver and explicitly asks them to correct the stopping position. Most of our stock has the capability to make a cab-to-cab call without the need to use the bell/buzzer, but if the guard does need to give 3-3 and contact the driver they're encouraged to put the cab brake in emergency so there's no misinterpretation causing the driver to pull away.

 

[43066]

Some of the suggestions on this thread are greatly concerning, and suggest that there's an urgent need for GWR's op standards to step in and standardise dispatch arrangements.

A number of points:

- Nobody should be using shunting bell signals to give the RA.
- You shouldn't be trying to "fill the gaps" with your own methods of working, especially in situations where the rule book states a specific thing.
- Drivers should not be relying on guards to prevent them from risking a SPAD.
- The safest place for a train to be is in a platform. If dispatching the train means you're going to only move a few coach lengths out of the platform and then be stuck there for an indefinite amount of time, it's almost certainly a better idea to remain in the platform. If you're worried about delay minutes being attributed to you - report these things, including the signal number that was held at danger and what time it cleared.

At the end of the day, these unofficial ways of working aren't a problem until they are a problem, and usually in a catastrophic way.

Excellent post, I agree with every word.

No operational staff should ever be concerned about delay minutes. It’s very concerning that there are guards and drivers out there, who are apparently so obsessed with being on time, that they’re fudging the rule book.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I'm not bothered by delay mins. If I'm responsible I'll justify them. I did mention earlier that I'm quite happy to sit in the platform and wait the road but stations like Worle on the down the signal won't clear for WSM unless you occupy the approach track to the signal so waiting in the platform won't do.

 

[43066]

I'm not bothered by delay mins. If I'm responsible I'll justify them. I did mention earlier that I'm quite happy to sit in the platform and wait the road but stations like Worle on the down the signal won't clear for WSM unless you occupy the approach track to the signal so waiting in the platform won't do.

There needs to be an agreed definition of a starting signal.

I can think of one location I sign where the next signal is a few hundred yards behind the station. The guard’s job is to safely dispatch the train and give me two on the bell. If I SPAD, that’s entirely on me.

If I was given six on the bell as has been described above I’d refuse to work the train any further until I was provided with a competent guard.

 

[Ashley Hill]

If I was given six on the bell as has been described above I’d refuse to work the train any further until I was provided with a competent guard.

Well that's your choice and your TOC.

 

[43066]

Well that's your choice and your TOC.

It should be the same at every TOC. Someone said up thread that a DM would expect them to take six on the bell as RA. That is a complete fudge.

I don’t sign Didcot - how far is the signal from the platform?

 

[Ashley Hill]

About 11 coaches. For a shunt move it has to be approached to clear but for normal running until recently you wouldn't leave the platform but now we are authorised to pull up to it if red. Torre on the down was at one time not classed as a platform starter even though it was physically at the end of the platform albeit on a sharp curve out of sight (of sorts). A guard could give 2 with impunity! It's changed now though.

 

[43066]

About 11 coaches. For a shunt move it has to be approached to clear but for normal running until recently you wouldn't leave the platform but now we are authorised to pull up to it if red. Torre on the down was at one time not classed as a platform starter even though it was physically at the end of the platform albeit on a sharp curve out of sight (of sorts). A guard could give 2 with impunity! It's changed now though.

11 coach lengths cannot reasonably be classed as a “starting signal”, surely? That’s what the DRA is for, at the end of the day. The guard shouldn’t be doing the driver’s job for them.

If I SPAD having been given two against a red starter (or if I commit a dispatch irregularity by leaving on two against a green, vice RA, at my London terminal) that’s all on me.

Is there an official definition of a starting signal anywhere?

EDIT: and none of this stuff should be TOC specific. That’s the whole point of having a rulebook!

 

[DorkingMain]

11 coach lengths cannot reasonably be classed as a “starting signal”, surely? That’s what the DRA is for, at the end of the day. The guard shouldn’t be doing the driver’s job for them.

If I SPAD having been given two against a red starter (or if I commit a dispatch irregularity by leaving on two against a green, vice RA, at my London terminal) that’s all on me.

Is there an official definition of a starting signal anywhere?

The definition we've always worked on the basis of at my TOC is simply "A signal at the end of the platform, or close enough to the platform that the train has not fully cleared the platform when stopped at it". Of course, it's one of those typical railway that's the rule except when it isn't situations - we have one platform where the normal formation that works that route can clear the platform when stopped at it, but a longer train wouldn't be clear. That signal isn't considered a starting signal.

And then we have a couple where the signal is well off the end of the platform (over 300m) but there is an off indicator on the platform and guards are not expected to dispatch unless that indicator is lit. Because of the distance and sighting on that one, drivers are told to expect it to be displaying a red even though the guard is expected to have checked the off indicator - so it's a starting signal for the guard but not the driver.

However, one thing we have always worked on, consistently, is defining to traincrew what is and isn't a starting signal, and that definition is included in all route learning materials. Demonstrating understanding of where you're expected to check the signal aspect as a guard is a crucial part of our route assessments.