Train dispatched as I was pressing the button to open the doors

[Horizon22]

I've never heard of that! I believe it's a myth; the only people I've seen say this are railway staff, rather than non-staff passengers.

People also seem happy in places where the trains are available to board up to the advertised departure time; I've never ever known anyone complain when the doors are not locked prior to the advertised time and would be shocked if I ever did!

Passengers don't want their trains to depart on time?!

 

[yorkie]

Passengers don't want their trains to depart on time?!

I've never known a passenger complain that a train was available for boarding up to the advertised time.

While it may not be the norm in the UK for a train to be available to board up to that time, it is absolutely the norm in many other countries (including countries that have far better public transport usage and far better timekeeping than in Great Britain).

The opening poster was also not asking for the train to be late; they simply didn't want the train to depart early.

 

[Horizon22]

I've never known a passenger complain that a train was available for boarding up to the advertised time.

While it may not be the norm in the UK for a train to be available to board up to that time, it is absolutely the norm in many other countries (including countries that have far better public transport usage and far better timekeeping than in Great Britain).

The opening poster was also not asking for the train to be late; they simply didn't want the train to depart early.

That is not what I was saying and I think that is clear. This all boils down to when exactly "departure time". Is it the time the doors close, or the time the train moves off? This is a non-zero amount of time difference.

It may be the norm in other countries and good for them but it is not here and there has been publicity regarding departure times for decades.

 

[yorkie]

That is not what I was saying and I think that is clear.

The average person would not consider a train locking its doors at the advertised departure time to be "late", if that is what you are suggesting?

This all boils down to when exactly "departure time". Is it the time the doors close, or the time the train moves off? This is a non-zero amount of time difference.

In GB, the 'railway' seems to want the train to be part way out of the station by the advertised departure time, but I don't see any evidence to suggest that passengers would be unhappy with trains locking their doors at the advertised time, as is common in places which run railways better than we do.

It may be the norm in other countries and good for them but it is not here and there has been publicity regarding departure times for decades.

Publicity that seems to change by location, TOC, train type and can be subject to change over time, and promotes an anti-passenger outlook, on the false premise that passengers would be unhappy if their train wasn't already rolling out of the station by the booked departure time.

By all means say that this is how we do it, and we just have to lump it (don't we know it!), but it cannot be justified by claiming that passengers get upset if their trains lock the doors at the advertised time, as there is no evidence for that.

 

[Horizon22]

The average person would not consider a train locking its doors at the advertised departure time to be "late", if that is what you are suggesting?

I never did. I said "lots of people want right time departures" and you said "those who want early departures won't agree".

In my opinion if a train departs at 10:00:00, it starts moving at 10:00:00. It doesn't close the doors at that time. You may disagree, but I don't think that means I want "early departures". This is all semantics regarding when departure time actually is, and evidently you and I have a different opinion. In terms of actual measurement though, my reading of it is correct.

Publicity that seems to change by location, TOC, train type and can be subject to change over time, and promotes an anti-passenger outlook, on the false premise that passengers would be unhappy if their train wasn't already rolling out of the station by the booked departure time.

Can't deny that it could be better universally applied. I'd prefer a blanket 30 seconds before departure for train doors to close.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The average person would not consider a train locking its doors at the advertised departure time to be "late", if that is what you are suggesting?

In GB, the 'railway' seems to want the train to be part way out of the station by the advertised departure time, but I don't see any evidence to suggest that passengers would be unhappy with trains locking their doors at the advertised time, as is common in places which run railways better than we do.

Today, I was on the 1501 from Windsor & ER to London Waterloo, and it departed, actually moving, at 1459. That is unacceptable in my opinion.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Outside this forum, I’m not sure anyone gives a flying carp about the time a train sets off. People are, fairly obviously, bothered about whether their train arrives on time.

 

[Purple Train]

That is not what I was saying and I think that is clear. This all boils down to when exactly "departure time". Is it the time the doors close, or the time the train moves off? This is a non-zero amount of time difference.

It may be the norm in other countries and good for them but it is not here and there has been publicity regarding departure times for decades.

Normally I find "we've never done it here" conservatism tiring at best, but I think you've got it spot on here. If the departure time isn't when the train departs, when is it? And when's the cut-off going to be for passengers who are cutting it fine?

I have been on the receiving end of a train departing slightly before the time it was supposed to depart once. That was at Stratford-upon-Avon, and, despite legging it down the approach road, the train departed 30 seconds early approximately 25 seconds before I arrived on the platform. If the train had closed its doors on the minute, I might have made it, but on this occasion I simply accepted that I cut it too fine, spent half an hour catching my breath, got on the next train, and continued with my day. Only once has someone I know (who is 15 seconds late for everything, on a normal day) complained to me that the train departed early without them on it, in a similar scenario. The solution? Accept that he was cutting it too fine and wait 20 minutes for the next train. If 15 seconds is enough to make the difference, then you're cutting it too fine, and fussing about the time difference is a far worse solution than simply setting off 15 seconds earlier.

 

[yorkie]

I never did. I said "lots of people want right time departures" and you said "those who want early departures won't agree".

If by "right time" departures, you mean that people want what our rail industry considers to be a "right time departure", then no, they do not want that. If you ask passengers what they want, no-one is going to say "right time departures"; they are going to want right time arrivals.

No doubt there are some people who will get apprehensive if the train doesn't depart reasonably on time, but I've never known anyone complain about a train being available for boarding up to & including the advertised departure time, which is the point under discussion in this thread.

In my opinion if a train departs at 10:00:00, it starts moving at 10:00:00.

Yes, because you are used to operating in this country. However if you go to Kings Cross or Euston, the train will not "start" moving at that time; it will often be half way out the platform by that time!

It doesn't close the doors at that time.

Yes, because we are in Great Britain where we don't do things as well as in Switzerland or Japan.

You may disagree, but I don't think that means I want "early departures". This is all semantics regarding when departure time actually is, and evidently you and I have a different opinion. In terms of actual measurement though, my reading of it is correct.

What you want is different to what customers actually want; the battle over semantics is not helpful, but those of us who know what customers really want have been clear on this matter.

Can't deny that it could be better universally applied. I'd prefer a blanket 30 seconds before departure for train doors to close.

That would be better than what we have now, but still sub-standard compared to countries that we should be looking up to for how to run the railway.

Today, I was on the 1501 from Windsor & ER to London Waterloo, and it departed, actually moving, at 1459. That is unacceptable in my opinion.

Disgraceful, but no doubt SWR consider this to be perfectly acceptable.

Outside this forum, I’m not sure anyone gives a flying carp about the time a train sets off. People are, fairly obviously, bothered about whether their train arrives on time.

Absolutely 100%, but substitute "Outside this forum" for "Outside people employed in the railway industry"

Normally I find "we've never done it here" conservatism tiring at best, but I think you've got it spot on here. If the departure time isn't when the train departs, when is it? And when's the cut-off going to be for passengers who are cutting it fine?

You've not been to Switzerland or Japan, have you?

I have been on the receiving end of a train departing at the time it was supposed to depart once. That was at Stratford-upon-Avon, and, despite legging it down the approach road, the train departed 30 seconds early approximately 25 seconds before I arrived on the platform. If the train had closed its doors on the minute, I might have made it, but on this occasion I simply accepted that I cut it too fine, spent half an hour catching my breath, got on the next train, and continued with my day. Only once has someone I know (who is 15 seconds late for everything, on a normal day) complained to me that the train departed early without them on it, in a similar scenario. The solution? Accept that he was cutting it too fine and wait 20 minutes for the next train. If 15 seconds is enough to make the difference, then you're cutting it too fine, and fussing about the time difference is a far worse solution than simply setting off 15 seconds earlier.

That's fine; if you want to accept early departures that is your prerogative. But the rest of us don't need to believe this is acceptable.

Those of us who have seen how it should be done are not going to change our minds, while I accept that those who are used to the current system which leads to early departures are also not going to change their minds either. Neither side will back down. It's the same arguments over again. So I suggest we agree to disagree!

 

[Egg Centric]

Outside this forum, I’m not sure anyone gives a flying carp about the time a train sets off. People are, fairly obviously, bothered about whether their train arrives on time.

Of course, this is common sense.

I guess one issue though is that if we had a "close door on/after departure time" policy, then you might end up with quite perverse timetables where trains were in the passenger facing timetable scheduled to leave before they arrived. Eg suppose a train was scheduled to arrive at 06:49:30 and leave at 06:50:00 in the WTT. The passenger facing timetable would presumably be a 06:50 arrival and 06:49 departure!

Even so - I don't actually think this is as big a deal any more (other than looking odd) now that almost everyone uses electronic planners of one kind or another. But the railway industry won't think that way.

 

[yorkie]

Of course, this is common sense.

I guess one issue though is that if we had a "close door on/after departure time" policy, then you might end up with quite perverse timetables where trains were in the passenger facing timetable scheduled to leave before they arrived. Eg suppose a train was scheduled to arrive at 06:49:30 and leave at 06:50:00 in the WTT. The passenger facing timetable would presumably be a 06:50 arrival and 06:49 departure!

Not at all; you'd simply state 0649 arrival and 0649 departure in that case.

A good example of a location where trains are frequently timed for WTT 30 seconds after the advertised time is Stevenage (GTR). There are many more examples!

I also recall several years ago, the InterCity East Coast franchise operators used to advertised northbound InterCity trains as departing Stevenage earlier than actually booked, though this no longer seems to be the case.

 

[Purple Train]

For the avoidance of doubt, I do not condone early departures, such as the example raised by TT-ONR-NRN. In the post of mine quoted by yorkie I combined two separate drafts containing two separate anecdotes and mixed up the wording. I have since edited my post, and would like to apologise for the mix-up. That'll teach me to draft just after writing an essay. Wheels moving two minutes early is not acceptable, and I'm glad I use the Windsor station where such an arrangement is practically impossible. Upon rereading the thread I think this is the main point to be discussed and I seem to have gone down a semantic rabbit hole. Apologies for going off topic and I shall be careful to stay on topic in future.

 

[WeGoAgain]

You've not been to Switzerland or Japan, have you?

Out of interest, how does the following example play out in Switzerland/Japan: Train advertised as departing at 11:00:00 - Time now is 11:00:20 and (as seen on videos), passengers are being 'helped' into the train by platform rail staff. Along comes another passenger walking/running to get onto said train. Does the Train wait for said passenger? If so, how are delays mitigated further in the journey?

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

I find that difficult to believe; XC services from Plymouth to Leeds have plenty of slack in the timetable. If they get away from stations a minute or two late, then unless any further delay occurs, they would generally have to wait for a platform, or wait time at the next station. I've known trains make up half an hour or so of delays on this corridor.

I think the key is that I said "years ago". Presumably the timings have been altered since then. But I can assure you that it did happen.

I've never known anyone moan, let alone "a bucketload" for a few seconds delay.

In that case you've been lucky! I've had people stick their heads out of a door 10 seconds after the booked departure time to angrily have a go regarding the train not moving, others begin complaining when the brakes go on before the train has even stopped. I could go on but I'd be going off topic and you'd probably tell me none of it happened anyway!!

 

[yorkie]

Out of interest, how does the following example play out in Switzerland/Japan: Train advertised as departing at 11:00:00 - Time now is 11:00:20 and (as seen on videos), passengers are being 'helped' into the train by platform rail staff. Along comes another passenger walking/running to get onto said train. Does the Train wait for said passenger? If so, how are delays mitigated further in the journey?

The best thing to do is go to these places and see for yourself, but the same question could be asked of the GB rail network; there is no material difference in respect of any answer to your question depending on whether the location is a place where we already have a WTT departure 30 seconds after the public one, or not.

I think the key is that I said "years ago". Presumably the timings have been altered since then. But I can assure you that it did happen.

OK, well the current timings are around 23 years old, so this must have been a long time ago!

In that case you've been lucky! I've had people stick their heads out of a door 10 seconds after the booked departure time to angrily have a go regarding the train not moving...

What odd and unusual behaviour, however can you be sure they were demanding the doors be locked before the advertised time (for the wheels to already be moving by then), rather than at the advertised time?

... others begin complaining when the brakes go on before the train has even stopped.

Again, this is very odd behaviour; how do these people expect the train to stop!?

Surely there is no suggestion that such people should be pandered to?

I could go on but I'd be going off topic and you'd probably tell me none of it happened anyway!!

There are some very odd people about; I'm not going to say it didn't happen, but it must be incredibly rare to encounter such behaviour.

 

[The exile]

Outside this forum, I’m not sure anyone gives a flying carp about the time a train sets off. People are, fairly obviously, bothered about whether their train arrives on time.

Unless it departs without them on it, of course - which is where we came in, I think.

 

[bahnause]

Out of interest, how does the following example play out in Switzerland/Japan: Train advertised as departing at 11:00:00 - Time now is 11:00:20 and (as seen on videos), passengers are being 'helped' into the train by platform rail staff. Along comes another passenger walking/running to get onto said train. Does the Train wait for said passenger? If so, how are delays mitigated further in the journey?

In Switzerland, whether the train waits depends largely on the staff. Is anyone even aware that another passenger is rushing to catch the train? With DOO trains, this awareness isn’t always guaranteed.

Ultimately, the decision rests with the staff. For instance, during rush hour on a busy line with trains running every 10 minutes, the outcome may differ significantly from that on a quiet branch line with hourly service on a rainy Sunday afternoon. The main thing is that passengers who arrive on time are allowed to board. If the train is scheduled to leave at 09:00, boarding at 08:59:59 is on time. The operational timetable is independent of the published timetable.

The conditions under which a train is permitted to depart are defined in the regulations, where the concept of ‘customer service readiness’ is explicitly outlined. These regulations strictly forbid trains from departing earlier than the scheduled times indicated in the published timetable.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

In Switzerland, whether the train waits depends largely on the staff. Is anyone even aware that another passenger is rushing to catch the train? With DOO trains, this awareness isn’t always guaranteed.

Ultimately, the decision rests with the staff. For instance, during rush hour on a busy line with trains running every 10 minutes, the outcome may differ significantly from that on a quiet branch line with hourly service on a rainy Sunday afternoon. The main thing is that passengers who arrive on time are allowed to board. If the train is scheduled to leave at 09:00, boarding at 08:59:59 is on time. The operational timetable is independent of the published timetable.

The conditions under which a train is permitted to depart are defined in the regulations, where the concept of ‘customer service readiness’ is explicitly outlined. These regulations strictly forbid trains from departing earlier than the scheduled times indicated in the published timetable.

As things stand a "right time departure" as specified by the industry in the UK is that the train wheels should be rolling at departure time+00 seconds. So in your example the wheels would be turning at 0900.00, therefore a passenger arriving one second before would not be able to board.
Common sense dictates that a one second margin is cutting it too fine for anything!
I'm with @Purple Train . Sometimes I arrive at a station (or a bus stop) right on the wire. If I manage to board, bonus! If not I just accept that I was late and wait for the next one.

 

[bahnause]

As things stand a "right time departure" as specified by the industry in the UK is that the train wheels should be rolling at departure time+00 seconds. So in your example the wheels would be turning at 0900.00, therefore a passenger arriving one second before would not be able to board.

As a passenger, how do I find out until what time I can board a train? Exact numbers only please.

 

[43066]

As a passenger, how do I find out until what time I can board a train? Exact numbers only please.

You need to leave enough time to board - doors generally close thirty seconds before departure time (trains will no longer be advertised up to two minutes prior at some locations). If you’re cutting it as fine as thirty seconds, you take the risk of missing the train.

Common sense dictates that a one second margin is cutting it too fine for anything!

Precisely. The overwhelming majority of people have no issue with this, based on my years of experience of operating trains.

 

[Falcon1200]

On the two bus services I use most often, one in Scotland and one in England, neither stop at one end of each journey is shown as a Timing Point in the bus operator's timetables. Therefore I have to use the previous Timing Point as a guide and get to the stop at, or at least very soon after, that time, often meaning a wait of a few minutes, depending on how long the bus actually takes to get there. Therefore, I have to say, I find it hard to understand discussing how many seconds - not minutes, seconds - Passengers should give themselves to board their train. Get there in time!

 

[Watershed]

As a passenger, how do I find out until what time I can board a train? Exact numbers only please.

Quite. The huge variability in policy depending on the station (is it 20 seconds? 30? 40? Or as much as 2 minutes) is one major problem. Even within the same station, travelling to the same destination, you can have different cutoffs depending on which operator you're travelling with.

Another issue is how this cutoff is never communicated before getting to the station. No ticket buying site/app (which is how 90+% of people buy their tickets) tells you how far in advance the doors will close. If the industry really wants to legitimise this poor policy, it should include a reference to it in the NRCoT, create a page on NRE that lists the cutoff for each station, and have a data feed that retailers can use to show to customers.

As it stands this whole situation is just another example of the many ways that the rail industry in Britain is pathologically obsessed with meaningless KPIs like "right time departure" whilst refusing to view things from the customer's perspective, let alone look at best practice on railways abroad.

On the two bus services I use most often, one in Scotland and one in England, neither stop at one end of each journey is shown as a Timing Point in the bus operator's timetables. Therefore I have to use the previous Timing Point as a guide and get to the stop at, or at least very soon after, that time, often meaning a wait of a few minutes, depending on how long the bus actually takes to get there. Therefore, I have to say, I find it hard to understand discussing how many seconds - not minutes, seconds - Passengers should give themselves to board their train. Get there in time!

All very well and good if you are making the journey infrequently and/or it's a long journey to begin with. But if you have to allow up to an extra 2 minutes for every train you board and you're making a commute that involves multiple changes, it gets tiresome pretty quickly. Think of the hours of your life you are wasting sitting on trains going nowhere!

At the end of the day, the railway is not an airline on rails, much though some people like David Horne would like it to be. It is a public transport service, a key component of which is that advertised timings can be relied on. At the moment that is nowhere near being the case.

 

[bahnause]

On the two bus services I use most often, one in Scotland and one in England, neither stop at one end of each journey is shown as a Timing Point in the bus operator's timetables. Therefore I have to use the previous Timing Point as a guide and get to the stop at, or at least very soon after, that time, often meaning a wait of a few minutes, depending on how long the bus actually takes to get there. Therefore, I have to say, I find it hard to understand discussing how many seconds - not minutes, seconds - Passengers should give themselves to board their train. Get there in time!

It is the railway industry, not the customer that repeatedly emphasises how important every second is for the timetable. At the same time, however, it is unable to communicate this information transparently to customers. Instead, there is always this non-binding ‘allow enough time’. They want to have the cake and eat it.

 

[43066]

It is the railway industry, not the customer that repeatedly emphasises how important every second is for the timetable. At the same time, however, it is unable to communicate this information transparently to customers. Instead, there is always this non-binding ‘allow enough time’. They want to have the cake and eat it.

Could you point to some evidence that UK railway passengers are unhappy with the current arrangements? Is this a matter that is regularly complained about on passenger surveys, for example?

 

[Falcon1200]

It is a public transport service, a key component of which is that advertised timings can be relied on. At the moment that is nowhere near being the case.

I agree! And there should therefore be a standard time for door closure before departure, which should be clearly and widely advertised.

 

[Haywain]

Think of the hours of your life you are wasting sitting on trains going nowhere!

Alternatively, think of the stress that is being avoided by allowing just a little more time and taking a more relaxed approach to life.

 

[bahnause]

I agree! And there should therefore be a standard time for door closure before departure, which should be clearly and widely advertised.

I have a really crazy idea. How about collecting this data and making it accessible in a table or a system. Like inserting these times into a table. I don't know what you could call such a construct. A timetable perhaps?

 

[yorkie]

In Switzerland, whether the train waits depends largely on the staff. Is anyone even aware that another passenger is rushing to catch the train? With DOO trains, this awareness isn’t always guaranteed.

Ultimately, the decision rests with the staff. For instance, during rush hour on a busy line with trains running every 10 minutes, the outcome may differ significantly from that on a quiet branch line with hourly service on a rainy Sunday afternoon. The main thing is that passengers who arrive on time are allowed to board. If the train is scheduled to leave at 09:00, boarding at 08:59:59 is on time

Thanks, yes this matches my observations.

. The operational timetable is independent of the published timetable.

Same in GB, except we depart a varying amount earlier at some locations, with no consistency.

As things stand a "right time departure" as specified by the industry in the UK is that the train wheels should be rolling at departure time+00 seconds...

Are you sure it's not "by" rather than "at"? Avanti, LNER and a few others seem desperate for the train to be halfway out the station by that time, not for the wheels to be starting to roll.

So in your example the wheels would be turning at 0900.00, therefore a passenger arriving one second before would not be able to board.
Common sense dictates that a one second margin is cutting it too fine for anything!

In the UK, the default approach is that the customer has chosen not to allow enough time. In Switzerland, the default approach seems to be more that something may have happened (e.g. a slightly late inbound connection) to cause it.

Travelling around Switzerland is an absolute delight compared to the UK; those who are so desperately keen to promote the UK approach - generally speaking - have not experienced how things can be done.

I'm with @Purple Train . Sometimes I arrive at a station (or a bus stop) right on the wire. If I manage to board, bonus! If not I just accept that I was late and wait for the next one.

My answer to that is as above.

As a passenger, how do I find out until what time I can board a train? Exact numbers only please

At Euston you would need to be there probably 3 mins before, King's Cross at least 2 (but you'd potentially need to be using an app on your phone, as the train may no longer be advertised on the boards!), at other stations 1 minute, or it may be 40 seconds, or 30. There is no set time. And even then, trains can be despatched earlier than these times.

On the two bus services I use most often, one in Scotland and one in England, neither stop at one end of each journey is shown as a Timing Point in the bus operator's timetables. Therefore I have to use the previous Timing Point as a guide and get to the stop at, or at least very soon after, that time, often meaning a wait of a few minutes, depending on how long the bus actually takes to get there. Therefore, I have to say, I find it hard to understand discussing how many seconds - not minutes, seconds - Passengers should give themselves to board their train. Get there in time!

When exactly is "in time", and how much of an earlier connection should people take to ensure this?

I agree! And there should therefore be a standard time for door closure before departure, which should be clearly and widely advertised.

Like in Switzerland?

It is the railway industry, not the customer that repeatedly emphasises how important every second is for the timetable.

Absolutely correct; it's not regular passengers who are promoting that mantra.

At the same time, however, it is unable to communicate this information transparently to customers. Instead, there is always this non-binding ‘allow enough time’.

Indeed, but "enough time" is not specified and can vary. Furthermore, all booking sites provided by train companies do not allow customers to allow additional interchange time to increase the chances of making connections (the only site that does this is one created by people with no affiliation to train companies).

They want to have the cake and eat it.

Absolutely this!

Could you point to some evidence that UK railway passengers are unhappy with the current arrangements? Is this a matter that is regularly complained about on passenger surveys, for example?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0965856421001993

...The study found that passengers perceptions were more negative when the number of successful connections dropped. Interestingly, they concluded that a decrease in successful connections led to a stronger reaction as compared to an increase in successful connections and the negative perceptions also persisted longer. In other words, losses are valued larger than gains which is in line with prospect theory...

One of the reasons why public transport / rail usage in countries such as Switzerland (and others) is so much higher than the UK is because the network is treated as a network, and reasonable efforts are made to maintain connections, rather than blame passengers and go without them, wherever practical.

As I said before, we should "agree to disagree" because it is absolutely clear that some rail staff are very keen to maintain the status quo; you're not going to budge and change your position. But likewise, those of us who have experienced other countries are not going to change our position either.

I see no point in going round in circles.

 

[bahnause]

Alternatively, think of the stress that is being avoided by allowing just a little more time and taking a more relaxed approach to life.

What would be really relaxed approach would be a concrete, published and reliable time. I couldn't care less when the doors close. They can close three days before departure if the rail industry deems it necessary to achieve its KPI. Because then I can decide whether I can (connections...) and want to use the product.

 

[Horizon22]

If by "right time" departures, you mean that people want what our rail industry considers to be a "right time departure", then no, they do not want that. If you ask passengers what they want, no-one is going to say "right time departures"; they are going to want right time arrivals.

And the two are linked of course. I won't get into all the detail regarding performance and the importance of dwells and the knock on performance impact, especially at busy multi-platform stations and terminals with a throat of trains in and out but it is true. Especially if you are arriving at a terminal and there is a tight timetable for reoccupation of the platform following a slightly late departure.

Yes, because you are used to operating in this country. However if you go to Kings Cross or Euston, the train will not "start" moving at that time; it will often be half way out the platform by that time!

Yes, because we are in Great Britain where we don't do things as well as in Switzerland or Japan.

In your opinion (on this matter). We have differing methods in terms of departure time - both are valid and it's not like this is some sort of new phenomenon that is suddenly outraging people. Where there are tens of thousands of dispatches every single day, whilst they should be kept to a minimum where humans are involved there are bound to be some that depart slightly early - just as there are those that depart slightly late due to human error. As I said way up thread, there will always be 'one more' person trying to board at busy locations and disaptchers (platform / guard / driver) have to be strict.

Have I been subject to an early departure? Yes I have (particularly grating as it was my train into work for my morning shift!) and I raised a complaint and fair play to the TOC (GTR) they apologised, gave me some goodwill money and would speak to the driver (DOO dispatch). But that happened 1% of the time and I chalked it up to being one of those things. As I said, humans are not infallible.

There are some places where early departures routinely happen (e.g. London Bridge towards Charing Cross) so there are some exceptions which nobody seems that concerned about.

And I have experienced the railways in Switzerland which are lovely, but there's a lot of history and culture (and financing!) to unpick and probably an essay to write on why there are so many differences.

What you want is different to what customers actually want; the battle over semantics is not helpful, but those of us who know what customers really want have been clear on this matter.

With respect, what gives you the credibility to know "what customers really want"? Some people - mainly rail enthusiasts on this forum - is, as per usual, not representative of all passengers. As several have mentioned, I actually don't think the vast majority of passengers care about this point - as some people have mentioned in this post -, because the vast majority of passengers are at the platform and on-board long before this becomes an issue. Again, I'm not claiming my view is representative either, but without a proper quantified survey, nobody can be exactly sure "what customers want". Also, rushing close to departure time absolutely ramps up the risk of slips, trips and falls and injury and this is well documented.

Clearly you and I disagree on this matter so I will leave it here with the following:

• Trains should start moving at xx:xx:00.
• Early departures should obviously be avoided.
• A blanket rule (e.g. 30 seconds before departure) should be implemented for doors closing.
• The vast majority of passengers are not impacted.