Train dispatched as I was pressing the button to open the doors

[yorkie]

I didn't say anything about anything being better in this country, or anything about varying amounts of time?

The paragraph I quoted appeared to be supporting the current status quo in this country, which is a mishmash of different policies, and appeared to be suggesting that the customer was to blame for missing connections; maybe that's not the way you intended it to come across?

Your post didn't quote any particular post/point, so it wasn't entirely clear what you were replying to, so perhaps that has caused some misunderstanding.

I've witnessed such arguments, more than once, yes. Some were witnessed in person with my own eyes and ears, others on social media. Before you ask, no, I'm not going to go trawling through years of social media posts to find an example to link to, so feel free to disbelieve me if you wish.

Do you think that publishing the final boarding time is going to result in more arguments than the current mishmash of different policies?

If so, I disagree, and if not, we are in agreement on that point.

I never said I was against it...

So what are you saying then?

I don't think you understood what I was saying. I was saying I don't understand the argument that the whole network would descend into chaos if everything started leaving 30 seconds later than it currently does. Surely if everything is 30 seconds later than currently, it makes absolutely no difference because every other movement would also be 30 seconds later?

Maybe so, but I don't think that is even the debate to be had; in some places it is already booked to be the case that the WTT time is 30 seconds after the public timetable, so it's not a given that it has to be the way you describe. It's not a binary choice of the status quo or everything being 30 seconds later.

 

[Krokodil]

This is what's known as a false equivalence fallacy

On the contrary, while the causes may be different (performance monitoring vs trying to leave work bang on time), if I arrived at a shop with enough time in theory to buy my goods (let's say baby formula as a particularly critical example) before the advertised closing time, I'd be just as annoyed as if I turned up at Euston and was refused entry to a platform before departure time.

Were there complaints from people already on the train, which some people claim there would be?

The RhB in Engadin does serve a bit of a different market to (say) the Zurich S Bahn so I would expect the passengers to be different too. Not that either RhB train was remotely busy...

Isn't there a cumulative effect of applying this practice at successive stations? Wouldn't a train dispatched in this manner get progressively later through it's journey, until it lost its path entirely?

Not really, it would just consistently run 20 (ish) seconds later than it would now. The advertised departure time stays the same and if a train's departure time comes up once it is ready to close doors then there's no need to wait further.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Isn't there a cumulative effect of applying this practice at successive stations? Wouldn't a train dispatched in this manner get progressively later through it's journey, until it lost its path entirely?

How? You're not changing the time it takes to get from A to B.

Station	Current	Proposed
A (11.01)	Arrive - xx:xx:xx Close - 11:00:30 Depart - 11:01:00	Arrive - xx:xx:xx Close - 11:01:00 Depart - 11:01:30
B (11.06)	Arrive - 11:05:00 Close - 11:05:30 Depart - 11:06:00	Arrive - 11:05:30 Close - 11:06:00 Depart - 11:06:30
C (11.15)	Arrive - 11:14:00 Close - 11:14:30 Depart - 11:15:00	Arrive - 11:14:30 Close - 11:15:00 Depart - 11:15:30
D (11.25)	Arrive - 11:25:00 Close - xx:xx:xx Depart - xx:xx:xx	Arrive - 11:25:30 Close - xx:xx:xx Depart - xx:xx:xx

All that happens is everything shifts 30 seconds. Nothing takes longer or keeps getting later, and nothing delays anything else at a junction anymore than at present because everything is operating to the same principal. Or am I missing something really obvious?

 

[norbitonflyer]

One of the reasons why public transport / rail usage in countries such as Switzerland (and others) is so much higher than the UK is because the network is treated as a network, and reasonable efforts are made to maintain connections, rather than blame passengers and go without them, wherever practical.

I (and fifty other people) had the doors of an advertised connecting service closed in our faces as we piled out of the incoming service (delayed slightly by having to make extra stops to cover for a cancelled service) and crossed the platform. Remonstration with the dispatcher simply got the stock reply that they "had to keep to the timetable", but had no answer to the point that the timetable said our ebnd to end journey should takje just over two hours but would now be more than three. (Indeed, the next London train didn't make the same stops, so some unfortunate passengers for intermediate stations would have to wait for two hours).

 

[GLC]

Dispatch methods are agreed between each TOC and union and are dependent on a whole variety of factors and locations. So it is not as simple as that I'm afraid.

Why can’t they just invent a door that everyone agrees on how to close, and then put that door on the trains

 

[norbitonflyer]

For me, the issue isn't knowing how many seconds it is that the doors will be shut before some other specified time (after all, if I'm rushing, I'm not also trying to read a timetable in one hand whilst looking at the second hand of my watch on the other arm and trying to do mental arithmetic to help me come to a rational judgement of whether I have time to make the train or not!)

As a passenger, what I really want is a clear and obvious warning that the doors are about to be shut, therefore I should get on the train *right* *now* or forever hold my silence. Like, e.g., a consistently applied and used whistle from the platform staff or guard a few seconds before the "official" dispatch process begins. If I hear that whistle when I'm still crossing the footbridge to get to the train, I know I've most likely missed it and I'm far less likely to moan if the doors then shut when I get closer. If I hear that whistle whilst I'm walking along the train so that I can, as requested, use all available doors, I know that getting on *now* into a more crowded carriage takes priority.

In the absence of any indication from the platform, the first that a late-running passenger knows that dispatch is starting is when the doors get shut in their face. And I think that's the situation that upsets them the most: "If you'd warned me 5 seconds earlier then I'd have got on".

This is I think an important point, and the iussue the OP initially raised . Whether a whistle or a "hustle alarm" connected to the doors, it should allow enough time for an intending passenger to get to the nearest door and board the train. But many alarms seem to start beeping only as the doors start to move.

There are many reasons why a passenger may have arrived on the platform in time to catch the train but not board it immediately. The nearest carriage may be too crowded, or be the wrong class for the ticket held, or not be the one in which the passenger has a reserved seat, or be in the wrong part of the train if the train is to divide en route or your destination station has a short platform. Yes, if you know doors are about to close, jump on and move around the train once it's under way - but until then you should be able to walk along the platform to find the right carriage for your reservation/ class of accomodation/ destination, confident that you will not miss the train.

 

[yorkie]

How? You're not changing the time it takes to get from A to B.

Station	Current	Proposed
A (11.01)	Arrive - xx:xx:xx Close - 11:00:30 Depart - 11:01:00	Arrive - xx:xx:xx Close - 11:01:00 Depart - 11:01:30
B (11.06)	Arrive - 11:05:00 Close - 11:05:30 Depart - 11:06:00	Arrive - 11:05:30 Close - 11:06:00 Depart - 11:06:30
C (11.15)	Arrive - 11:14:00 Close - 11:14:30 Depart - 11:15:00	Arrive - 11:14:30 Close - 11:15:00 Depart - 11:15:30
D (11.25)	Arrive - 11:25:00 Close - xx:xx:xx Depart - xx:xx:xx	Arrive - 11:25:30 Close - xx:xx:xx Depart - xx:xx:xx

All that happens is everything shifts 30 seconds. Nothing takes longer or keeps getting later, and nothing delays anything else at a junction anymore than at present because everything is operating to the same principal. Or am I missing something really obvious?

Yes; as mentioned above, at some stations, there are numerous examples of the WTT being 30 seconds after the public timetable. For example many GTR services at Stevenage.

It could be taken into account when creating the timetable. It already is done this way at some locations, so is nothing new.

I (and fifty other people) had the doors of an advertised connecting service closed in our faces as we piled out of the incoming service (delayed slightly by having to make extra stops to cover for a cancelled service) and crossed the platform. Remonstration with the dispatcher simply got the stock reply that they "had to keep to the timetable", but had no answer to the point that the timetable said our ebnd to end journey should takje just over two hours but would now be more than three. (Indeed, the next London train didn't make the same stops, so some unfortunate passengers for intermediate stations would have to wait for two hours).

This is a prime example.

@Falcon1200 do you accept this?

 

[Lewisham2221]

The paragraph I quoted appeared to be supporting the current status quo in this country, which is a mishmash of different policies, and appeared to be suggesting that the customer was to blame for missing connections; maybe that's not the way you intended it to come across?

Your post didn't quote any particular post/point, so it wasn't entirely clear what you were replying to, so perhaps that has caused some misunderstanding.

Do you think that publishing the final boarding time is going to result in more arguments than the current mishmash of different policies?

If so, I disagree, and if not, we are in agreement on that point.

So what are you saying then?

First off, apologies for the multiple quotes. I was going to reply to the points individually, then decided it would be better addressed as a whole.

Broadly speaking, I think we actually agree on this subject. I don't support the current status quo in so much as I don't agree that it needs being this way. Nor do I think it is appropriate to have differing timings for different operators and different stations. If your going to have a time, make it the same everywhere. And if you're going to do that, I have no objection - and see no reason why not - to have that time as the published time, rather than "T minus 30 seconds".

I think the confusion comes from the fact that I don't strongly object to the current situation either.

 

[duffield]

I (and fifty other people) had the doors of an advertised connecting service closed in our faces as we piled out of the incoming service (delayed slightly by having to make extra stops to cover for a cancelled service) and crossed the platform. Remonstration with the dispatcher simply got the stock reply that they "had to keep to the timetable", but had no answer to the point that the timetable said our ebnd to end journey should takje just over two hours but would now be more than three. (Indeed, the next London train didn't make the same stops, so some unfortunate passengers for intermediate stations would have to wait for two hours).

I've been on services where we have arrived at the adjacent platform to the connecting service, sitting with its doors released, and our doors have been kept locked for an extended time (maybe a minute or two) until the other service was just pulling out, and *then* immediately unlocked.

I can only assume this is done on "safety grounds" to prevent a mad rush from one train to the other. But it's very frustrating. My sister has reported the same thing at a different location.

 

[CW2]

How? You're not changing the time it takes to get from A to B.

Station	Current	Proposed
A (11.01)	Arrive - xx:xx:xx Close - 11:00:30 Depart - 11:01:00	Arrive - xx:xx:xx Close - 11:01:00 Depart - 11:01:30
B (11.06)	Arrive - 11:05:00 Close - 11:05:30 Depart - 11:06:00	Arrive - 11:05:30 Close - 11:06:00 Depart - 11:06:30
C (11.15)	Arrive - 11:14:00 Close - 11:14:30 Depart - 11:15:00	Arrive - 11:14:30 Close - 11:15:00 Depart - 11:15:30
D (11.25)	Arrive - 11:25:00 Close - xx:xx:xx Depart - xx:xx:xx	Arrive - 11:25:30 Close - xx:xx:xx Depart - xx:xx:xx

All that happens is everything shifts 30 seconds. Nothing takes longer or keeps getting later, and nothing delays anything else at a junction anymore than at present because everything is operating to the same principal. Or am I missing something really obvious?

I understand your argument in these circumstances, but what happens when you apply the principle at busy junctions, with trains in varying directions, speeds, door cycle times, dwell times, and let's not overlook freight.

The aim is a good one, but my fear of it triggering a wholesale planning meltdown remains.

 

[WeGoAgain]

In Switzerland, whether the train waits depends largely on the staff. Is anyone even aware that another passenger is rushing to catch the train? With DOO trains, this awareness isn’t always guaranteed.

Ultimately, the decision rests with the staff. For instance, during rush hour on a busy line with trains running every 10 minutes, the outcome may differ significantly from that on a quiet branch line with hourly service on a rainy Sunday afternoon. The main thing is that passengers who arrive on time are allowed to board. If the train is scheduled to leave at 09:00, boarding at 08:59:59 is on time. The operational timetable is independent of the published timetable.

The conditions under which a train is permitted to depart are defined in the regulations, where the concept of ‘customer service readiness’ is explicitly outlined. These regulations strictly forbid trains from departing earlier than the scheduled times indicated in the published timetable.

Thanks, that's helpful. - Though it does leave me to wonder whether delays can accrue. - Either way, thanks for your informative input.

 

[Falcon1200]

Here's one from today, after about 5 seconds of searching:

That example is a late inward train allowing just 45 seconds for a connection requiring alighting from one train, going down stairs, through a subway and up more stairs to join the connecting train; That is for many people simply not enough time, and nowhere does the complainant state that doors were in fact closed early in the face of intending passengers.

I don't understand why you are asking me for examples; do you really not believe that this happens?!

We are now discussing a different issue, namely not holding connections for late running trains; And I do agree that more leeway should be given here.

 

[AlterEgo]

Isn't there a cumulative effect of applying this practice at successive stations? Wouldn't a train dispatched in this manner get progressively later through it's journey, until it lost its path entirely?

You just adjust the dwell time and account for it in the timetable. It may make some journeys slightly slower.

 

[renegademaster]

But generally if you don't depart on time it isn't possible to arrive on time, unless you're at the final stop and there's recovery time from the penultimate calling point!!
This is the problem with today's society... everyone expects the train to wait for them but also moans a bucketload if it's a few seconds late ...

You could set the advertised departures as - 1 of whatever the WTT is and the advertised arrivals as the real ones

 

[pokemonsuper9]

understand your argument in these circumstances, but what happens when you apply the principle at busy junctions, with trains in varying directions, speeds, door cycle times, dwell times, and let's not overlook freight

If everything is pushed 30 seconds, then nothing is out of alignment.

 

[renegademaster]

it is not here and there has been publicity regarding departure times for decades.

Doesn't help that it differers based on where you are. Making the WTT and public timetables different would allow people to work around local variations without having to memorise the different boarding windows for every station

 

[Yew]

It’s been a few weeks since I was last there but you’ll see posters dotted around New Street advising that train doors will close 40 (or 60, I can’t remember which) seconds before the advertised departure time.

The railway aims for wheels rolling at hh:mm:00.

No wonder people don't use the railways when we have hostile, anti-customer attitudes like that present within the system. If we need some time to dispatch, that should be accounted for in the working timetable after the advertised time of departure.

 

[transportphoto]

No wonder people don't use the railways when we have hostile, anti-customer attitudes like that present within the system. If we need some time to dispatch, that should be accounted for in the working timetable after the advertised time of departure.

The railway is busy enough as it is - it doesn’t need more demand. I’m sure it can cope.

 

[TheManBehind]

No wonder people don't use the railways when we have hostile, anti-customer attitudes like that present within the system. If we need some time to dispatch, that should be accounted for in the working timetable after the advertised time of departure.

Is it an anti-customer attitude to say that a train will depart at its departure time? If I tell someone I'm giving a lift to that I want to be on the road at 0900, then that's "on the road" not "walking to the car". It feels like what's being argued over is wording - whether "departing" means doors closing or train moving.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Does having a final boarding time of 30, 40, 60, 120 seconds (depending on location) result in a reduction in people rushing? Do stations where there are greater deadlines, such as Euston, have a reduction in people rushing? (again, this is very much a rhetorical question!)

Even more confusing is that it depends on TOC as well as location, so at Euston it’s two minutes for Avanti and 30 seconds for LNR. And then places like Fratton, well, it’s twenty seconds for Southern, thirty seconds for SWR and forty seconds for GWR! Except at Paddington where that becomes two minutes. Ludicrous.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

Isn't there a cumulative effect of applying this practice at successive stations? Wouldn't a train dispatched in this manner get progressively later through it's journey, until it lost its path entirely?

Not if the whole path of the train was adjusted. The cumulative effect only occurs if you do it ad hoc at several stations but don't adjust the timings in between, as per my example way back up post.

You could set the advertised departures as - 1 of whatever the WTT is and the advertised arrivals as the real ones

You could. But on many routes the timings need to be looked at properly instead of relying on recovery time at the end. As it stands a train going from A to F can arrive late at B, C, D and E but magically complete its journey on time due to ridiculous amounts of recovery time between E and F.

Why can’t they just invent a door that everyone agrees on how to close, and then put that door on the trains

It would be a good idea to get manufacturers to standardise the time it takes their doors to close. As daft as it sounds this is the reason for some of the inconsistency (NOT all before I get shot down again!). Some types of train take longer than others for the doors to close and therefore some TOCs have adjusted the time they start the despatch process to suit the rolling stock. Hopefully this is something that GBR will look at.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

I experienced people complaining because trains had not begun to move at their booked time numerous times over many years

This absolutely does happen on commuter trains in my experience too, I'd say complaining out loud is unsual, but a pointed glance at a watch, a tut, a loud sigh, a look to your fellow passengers that says "bloody trains, eh?" is absolutely a likely response. People do notice when trains leave late.

 

[EUC]

Many have asked what the travelling public would like the advertised departure time in the passenger timetable to mean. For me, it should mean being able to get onto the train up until the time it says it's going to leave.
So, if the train is departing at 0900, I would expect to be able to board until 08:59:59 (with the door potentially closing right behind my rump). In other words, I feel I should be on board by the advertised time. The train can then leave, and if it leaves on the dot at nine o'clock, then I better have made sure I was on board by then.
Train travel is not air travel (gates closing 15 minutes or whatever before departure), so I don't believe the passenger needs to be on the train a good deal earlier than the advertised departure time, no.

 

[Yew]

Is it an anti-customer attitude to say that a train will depart at its departure time? If I tell someone I'm giving a lift to that I want to be on the road at 0900, then that's "on the road" not "walking to the car". It feels like what's being argued over is wording - whether "departing" means doors closing or train moving.

The time a train leaves the station is, for the most part, irrelevant, we should advertise the last time that boarding the train is possible. The problem is that we have bundled in a value that is meaningful to the customer (the time they need to be on the train by) in with a value they don't care about (the time to secure the train), in the form of the departure time. The problem isn't that the train leaves at its departure time, it's that we are giving the customer the wrong number (departure time) in the first place.

Maybe this wasn't such a problem in the past, with slam-door stock before CDL, and a more relaxed attitude to the platform-train interface - but with the (sensible) safety precautions we use these days, those numbers are not as synonymous as they were.

So, if the train is departing at 0900, I would expect to be able to board until 08:59:59 (with the door potentially closing right behind my rump). In other words, I feel I should be on board by the advertised time. The train can then leave, and if it leaves on the dot at nine o'clock, then I better have made sure I was on board by then.
Train travel is not air travel (gates closing 15 minutes or whatever before departure), so I don't believe the passenger needs to be on the train a good deal earlier than the advertised departure time, no.

Indeed, the number we print on timetables should be the doors-close time, as that is the most useful number to the passenger.

 

[Taunton]

Back to the original point, DLR at Tower Gateway terminus you have to walk forward from the entrance even to get to the back of the train which has been standing there long term. Automatic driving, goes "ding" when departure moment reached, some operators instantly close the doors without warning while there are several passengers, families and all, still walking up alongside the train to the favoured front view. Done so instantly there's no time even to head for the nearest open train door. Having seen from inside the train this happen more than once I have thought previously if only the operators were issued with whistles.

 

[Peter0124]

Saw this last night, train came in, doors opened, bloke just barged his way straight on before ANYONE had alighted.

This in my experience happened more often in london, than compared to back home in Scotland

 

[RGM654]

The time a train leaves the station is, for the most part, irrelevant, we should advertise the last time that boarding the train is possible. The problem is that we have bundled in a value that is meaningful to the customer (the time they need to be on the train by) in with a value they don't care about (the time to secure the train), in the form of the departure time. The problem isn't that the train leaves at its departure time, it's that we are giving the customer the wrong number (departure time) in the first place.

Maybe this wasn't such a problem in the past, with slam-door stock before CDL, and a more relaxed attitude to the platform-train interface - but with the (sensible) safety precautions we use these days, those numbers are not as synonymous as they were.


Indeed, the number we print on timetables should be the doors-close time, as that is the most useful number to the passenger.

That post seems to me to capture the issue perfectly. It's all very well to aim to arrive with a minute or two (or more) to spare, but many things can prevent that. I note the point about some passengers complaining if the train doesn't start rolling at the advertised time, but that shouldn't arise if the time in the public timetable is identified as the "doors close" time. Few passengers should be surprised, and fewer still annoyed, if a few seconds elapse between doors closing and wheels turning. If anyone thinks that really is an issue, a general notice to the effect that trains can't start instantly after the doors close would be better than inconsistent notices about doors closing variable amounts before their advertised departure times.

I fear, however, that we will not achieve consensus on here, and that even if we did the present practice would not change.

 

[Bikeman78]

But generally if you don't depart on time it isn't possible to arrive on time, unless you're at the final stop and there's recovery time from the penultimate calling point!!
This is the problem with today's society... everyone expects the train to wait for them but also moans a bucketload if it's a few seconds late ...

It certainly is on SWR. Aside from the infamous Shepperton route, most of the schedules have more slack than a wizard's sleeve! If you have some spare time, have a look through at realtime trains.

 

[Taunton]

One issue is setting punctuality targets such as "90% of trains within 10 minutes of schedule", or similar. Unfortunately the railway industry felt such 10% margins were "theirs", to handle issues that may arise within the industry, and nothing to be used for the convenience of passengers.

Thus we had the situation I experienced multiple times at Ascot, with a 10 minute connection from Waterloo arrival to the Camberley/Guildford train, the Waterloo train arriving 10 minutes late, and the Camberley train being dispatched just as numerous connecting passengers rushed across for it. The excuse was given as "the train has to leave on time".

If that is the case, why was the first train run late? This happened when, again multiple times, something was stood on the Down Fast at Barnes, once the Network Measurement Train, so we were diverted to the Slow line, delayed by the train in front, and arrived at Ascot those 10 minutes late.

So why when it is operationally convenient can trains be delayed, but not for passenger convenience?

 

[Bikeman78]

Normally I find "we've never done it here" conservatism tiring at best, but I think you've got it spot on here. If the departure time isn't when the train departs, when is it? And when's the cut-off going to be for passengers who are cutting it fine?

I have been on the receiving end of a train departing slightly before the time it was supposed to depart once. That was at Stratford-upon-Avon, and, despite legging it down the approach road, the train departed 30 seconds early approximately 25 seconds before I arrived on the platform. If the train had closed its doors on the minute, I might have made it, but on this occasion I simply accepted that I cut it too fine, spent half an hour catching my breath, got on the next train, and continued with my day. Only once has someone I know (who is 15 seconds late for everything, on a normal day) complained to me that the train departed early without them on it, in a similar scenario. The solution? Accept that he was cutting it too fine and wait 20 minutes for the next train. If 15 seconds is enough to make the difference, then you're cutting it too fine, and fussing about the time difference is a far worse solution than simply setting off 15 seconds earlier.

Some people are late for everything. I couldn't live like that. The constant rushing. Just leave the house earlier. Yes, I get that unexpected things happen, especially with young children but I get round that by aiming to leave the house earlier than I really need to. Then I have some recovery time to deal with the unexpected.

But for commuter or regional trains it becomes ludicrous. At many stations locking the doors 30secs before departure would mean barely or never unlocking doors. If you look at the Cambridge trains that stop at Finsbury park, on some there is a only a scheduled gap of one minute between arrival and departure (and arrival does not necessarily mean train stopped and doors open). And if you make an exception for those, then you've just introduced more inconsistency.

Plenty of stations only have 30 seconds dwell time in the schedule so if the train arrives bang on time then closing the doors 30 seconds early would be impossible.