Train dispatched as I was pressing the button to open the doors

[Tom Doolan]

Just had a train dispatched on me as I was pressing the green door open button to get on, having walked up the train.

In my experience, platform staff/the guard whistle and shout at passengers on the platform to get on before they close the doors. I took this up with the NR reception at the station, they say it was a correctly performed dispatch and there is no need to warn customers trying to board via whistle (I discovered they close doors early at New Street, unlike everywhere else I get on). The train guard on the following service tells me that the platform staff are required to whistle before dispatching.

Are dispatchers required to whistle prior to giving the close doors signal at New Street?

Is delay repay payable in this instance? I notice RTT marks the service as having left early, which matches with my experience at the station.

 

[londonbridge]

More often than not if you run towards the train and try to press the door open button when the doors have been closed and locked the dispatcher will just shout at you to stand away.

 

[Geeves]

The whistle is only a warning that the train will soon depart. You can despatch without it if you wish.

I could be wrong but is Birmingham NS a station where the station staff use the Right away signal?

 

[transportphoto]

Is delay repay payable in this instance? I notice RTT marks the service as having left early, which matches with my experience at the station.

Short answer - no. I’m sorry to say that you missed the train as you didn’t allow sufficient time.

It’s been a few weeks since I was last there but you’ll see posters dotted around New Street advising that train doors will close 40 (or 60, I can’t remember which) seconds before the advertised departure time.

The railway aims for wheels rolling at hh:mm:00.

Once the station work complete signal has been given to the guard (e.g. first white light raised above the head), the guard will close the doors. Once the doors have been confirmed to be closed, and it is safe for departure, a second white light will be shown to the guard - this is known as the safety check complete signal. The guard will acknowledge this by giving a green light back before boarding the train and closing their door. Once the guards door is closed, the dispatcher will illuminate a “RA” indicator shown to the driver - “right away”. The driver starts the train moving.

Whistles are aids to dispatch, not a requirement.

 

[STKKK46]

They’re not required to blow a whistle.

If the doors were locked, you aren’t getting on at New Street, which sounds like it was the case.

Doors are closed 30-40 seconds before departure.

Would be amazed if you got delay repay unless you arrived on a late connecting train, as otherwise you simply left it too late.

 

[brick60000]

New Street has very recently switched to a policy of 40 seconds before departure for all services. Previously, there was some variation between different rolling stock, so it has been set at 40 seconds consistently, presumably to make things easier to understand for passengers. There has been quite a lot of publicity about this at the station in the run up to, and afterwards; I've heard announcements about it this week. So assuming you weren't prevented from boarding more than 40 seconds before departure, the staff we operating to time.

However, there is probably an entire other discussion about whether or not advertising a departure closer to a minute after the last time you can board is clear to people that don't travel regularly. Although, I think I'd also argue that anybody that doesn't travel regularly probably isn't arriving less than 40 seconds before their departure time!

 

[357]

It's around a decade since the requirement to whistle was removed from the rulebook.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Just had a train dispatched on me as I was pressing the green door open button to get on, having walked up the train.

Short answer - no. I’m sorry to say that you missed the train as you didn’t allow sufficient time.

Once again the railway is blaming the victim.

He did arrive in time, but was walking up the train - as we are often asked to "use all available doors" and not all cram into the nearest carriage.

Seems the railways want to have their cake and eat it too, whilst the poor would-be passenger is damned if he does what he is asked, and damned if he doesn't.

Why don't dispatchers and guards use a bit of common sense and warn passengers who are clearly intending to board the train that the doors are about to close? It can't be pleasant dealing with an angry passenger who has just missed their train because you let the doors shut in their face.

 

[nanstallon]

Once again the railway is blaming the victim.

He did arrive in time, but was walking up the train - as we are often asked to "use all available doors" and not all cram into the nearest carriage.

Seems the railways want to have their cake and eat it too, whilst the poor would-be passenger is damned if he does what he is asked, and damned if he doesn't.

Why don't dispatchers and guards use a bit of common sense and warn passengers who are clearly intending to board the train that the doors are about to close? It can't be pleasant dealing with an angry passenger who has just missed their train because you let the doors shut in their face.

The customer is such a nuisance.

 

[Bevan Price]

Why don't they publicly advertise all departure times as one minute earlier than the WTT departure times? That would solve many of these "early departure" arguments.

 

[AlterEgo]

Once again the railway is blaming the victim.

He did arrive in time, but was walking up the train - as we are often asked to "use all available doors" and not all cram into the nearest carriage.

How do you know that he was not taking the nearest and easiest door?

 

[yorkie]

Why don't they publicly advertise all departure times as one minute earlier than the WTT departure times? That would solve many of these "early departure" arguments.

This has been debated many times before; to save several pages of the same discussion we had, the answer is that it could be done (indeed it is/has done at some locations and/or for some trains) but it's claimed that the DfT won't allow it, because it would make advertised journey times too long (or something like that).

Ultimately, the railway isn't passenger-focussed in a way that it is in countries such as Switzerland and Japan (where you can board at xx:xx:00), and that is unlikely to change for as long as the 'powers that be' are in charge. There isn't anything that can be said on the topic that hasn't already been discussed in previous threads, so I suggest we leave it there.

Is delay repay payable in this instance? I notice RTT marks the service as having left early, which matches with my experience at the station.

I'd write it as a complaint, rather than as a DR claim, however if the train departed less than a full minute early, the train company is unlikely to care. Even if it was a full minute, you may struggle to get anything unless it was 2 minutes. Even then it may not be easy.

I experienced a train depart a full 2 minutes early at Barnsley in 2018; after 4.5 months, I was eventually compensated by Northern.

 

[norbitonflyer]

How do you know that he was not taking the nearest and easiest door?

Because he said so - he was "walking up the train"

 

[Railguy1]

Out of interest, why was the requirement for the whistle removed? I’d have thought a whistle for dispatch would have been very helpful for those that are visually impaired to inform them that the train can no longer be boarded.

 

[AlterEgo]

Because he said so - he was "walking up the train”

I misread that as “up to” as in, one approaching the train.

Begs the question as to why you’d do this though so close to departure. I don’t think it’s that unreasonable for a train to begin to be despatched when an uninterested person is walking on the platform. Happens thousands of times a day at New Street.

 

[james_the_xv]

OP has just described a situation that happens 50+ times a day at New Street, let alone across the network.

As always the answer is, regardless of railway policy, ensure you are are ready to board the train at least 90s before departure to avoid said situations...

My question would be was the door open button illuminated? I'd assume not from OP's account, and if not the SC/Guard/TM would have already received the first tip (if not the second) making stopping the dispatch process problematic.

 

[sheff1]

Once again the railway is blaming the victim.

He did arrive in time, but was walking up the train - as we are often asked to "use all available doors" and not all cram into the nearest carriage.

Seems the railways want to have their cake and eat it too, whilst the poor would-be passenger is damned if he does what he is asked, and damned if he doesn't.

I have witnessed similar at New Street - one staff member shouting at people telling them to move down and use all doors, whilst another was blowing their whistle and telling people walking down the platform, as per the first instruction, to board immediately at the nearest door !

 

[74A]

It's around a decade since the requirement to whistle was removed from the rulebook.

At least 30 years if not longer.

 

[Flange Squeal]

.

 

[geoffk]

Once again the railway is blaming the victim.

He did arrive in time, but was walking up the train - as we are often asked to "use all available doors" and not all cram into the nearest carriage.

Seems the railways want to have their cake and eat it too, whilst the poor would-be passenger is damned if he does what he is asked, and damned if he doesn't.

Why don't dispatchers and guards use a bit of common sense and warn passengers who are clearly intending to board the train that the doors are about to close? It can't be pleasant dealing with an angry passenger who has just missed their train because you let the doors shut in their face.

It seems that railway staff have an unlimited capacity for antagonising their "customers".

 

[357]

At least 30 years if not longer.

Time flies when you're having fun

It seems that railway staff have an unlimited capacity for antagonising their "customers".

We only know one side of the story here.

I've had it countless times when I was a dispatcher that someone would be walking down the train, I'd whistle and they wouldn't get on. I'd give CD, then they'd be greatly offended and accuse me of not warning them the doors were about to close. Turns out they were wearing headphones.

 

[fairysdad]

Special shout-out to the SWR (and SWT before that!) dispatchers who blow their whistles while people are still disembarking the trains...!

 

[LCC106]

When you’re that close to departure it’s always advisable to get on at the nearest door and walk through the train if necessary. Of course, not always so easy if there are many people standing. I don’t think delay repay applies here unless as mentioned you were on a late incoming train. I’m of the get there early to make sure I don’t miss it breed though.

Of course, I understand the call to use all doors. We frequently get large groups of passengers that think they all have to board through the one standard class door on the platform when the rest are first class. Makes the train late every time.

 

[Horizon22]

There’s always a cut off, especially at busy platforms and stations like New Street.

If it wasn’t the OP, it would be have someone else 10 seconds later and so on. This builds up and 1 minute might not seem like a lot but at peak times it can cause issues, especially if it is stock that pulls away slower.

Even if this didn’t take place at peak times, it is a standard to meet for all dispatchers and having a universal policy is better than not.

Ultimately on a daily basis, there will be somebody who just misses their train (or bus or tram). And no amount of procedure or policy will ever change that. It’s the nature of public transport.

 

[arb]

What happens if the person walking alongside the train to reach a distant carriage is walking literally right next to the train, inside the yellow line? Does that prevent the doors from being locked and dispatch starting until the passenger either gets on the train, or moves outside the yellow line? (Asking for a friend, obviously... )

 

[CharlieSpotted]

There are dozens of posters on the platforms at New Street about the 40 second rule, as well as regular announcements, and have been for some weeks now.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of it, you'd have to be spectacularly inattentive to miss it.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I haven't heard dispatchers at New St use a whistle in years, the occasional Guard has, but I've never had a whistle on any of my hundred of services from there.

How close to the train were you? If you were walking in the PTI I'd be grabbing your attention to board or step away. If you were simply walking up the platform, paying no obvious attention to the train, I'd be of the mindset you didn't want this train (happens almost always on all platforms except 4c) and pay you no attention back.

Dispatch, as mentioned up thread, starts 40 seconds prior to departure (or once you have the OFF if after). This will only be stopped if an unsafe situation arrises, not because someone didn't board in time as this can create a long delay at New St.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I haven't heard dispatchers at New St use a whistle in years, the occasional Guard has, but I've never had a whistle on any of my hundred of services from there.

I boarded three separate services at New Street yesterday, and on all three occasions the dispatchers used whistles.

I personally believe it should be mandatory at Birmingham, but that's just me.

 

[Purple Train]

There’s always a cut off, especially at busy platforms and stations like New Street.

If it wasn’t the OP, it would be have someone else 10 seconds later and so on. This builds up and 1 minute might not seem like a lot but at peak times it can cause issues, especially if it is stock that pulls away slower.

Even if this didn’t take place at peak times, it is a standard to meet for all dispatchers and having a universal policy is better than not.

Ultimately on a daily basis, there will be somebody who just misses their train (or bus or tram). And no amount of procedure or policy will ever change that. It’s the nature of public transport.

Well said. If the people complaining upthread about not being able to board at hh:mm:00 would like to suggest an alternative cut-off and time to get the wheels rolling, I'd be interested to hear it. Even on the sprightliest metro stock like the 345, it's a good 10 seconds from doors closing to wheels rolling.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I boarded three separate services at New Street yesterday, and on all three occasions the dispatchers used whistles.

I personally believe it should be mandatory at Birmingham, but that's just me.

Can I ask which platforms? Just wondering if they are used on the higher numbered platforms due to curvature. Never had it on platforms 1-7 which is where I always am