"Train doors may close 30 seconds before departure" - what a nonsense

[BRX]

It's becoming more and more common to see these notices stating that train doors will be closed 30 seconds, or a minute, or whatever, before departure.

This makes no sense to me.

What is the purpose of a timetable? It's to let you know when you need to be on the platform to catch your train. What's the point of publishing a departure time if you then inform passengers, when they show up at the station, that actually they need to be there a certain amount of time before what you've advertised in the timetable?

These advance door-closing times aren't even consistent across different stations and you can't know which stations apply them unless you are at the station, by which point it's probably too late.

If you want to close doors a bit ahead of the actual departure time, fair enough, but then you should simply advertise that time on the timetable.

Do you agree?

 

[pendolino]

What is the purpose of a timetable? It's to let you know when you need to be on the platform to catch your train.

Is it? I thought it was to tell you at what time the train actually leaves.

 

[rail-britain]

Most people arrive well in time for their journey
Some people look at the departure time, then the clock / their watch, and panic
Quite right, close the doors and refuse any and all people that turn up late

However, I did note the 06:30 Glasgow - Euston leaving Glasgow one entire minute early, the doors closed at 06:28 and started moving at 06:29
Would anyone have been bothered?
No, as the platform staff have plenty of experience to ensure this is possible
One could also argue, that it did depart at 06:30

 

[I T S]

With NIR , they're really slow in dispatching. At Central they wait if you're running down the stairs and reguarly radio to the barrier to ask if anyone else is coming for the services. What's the point in having timetables? They obviously delay trains left right and centre with they're stupid way of dispatching.

 

[radamfi]

If you want to close doors a bit ahead of the actual departure time, fair enough, but then you should simply advertise that time on the timetable.

Do you agree?

This is a regularly debated issue on this forum. Most people seem to support this peculiar British practice.

 

[BRX]

Is it? I thought it was to tell you at what time the train actually leaves.

What's more useful for a passenger to know: when the train physically starts moving, or when they need to be there in order not to miss it?

 

[michael769]

What is the purpose of a timetable?

It's to let you know when you need to be on the platform to catch your train.

The timetable tells you when the train leaves the station. Simple common sense should tell most people that they need to be there in time to get on before it leaves.

What's the point of publishing a departure time if you then inform passengers, when they show up at the station, that actually they need to be there a certain amount of time before what you've advertised in the timetable?

Perhaps because many passengers don't realise how long it takes for a train to be made ready to leave on it's timetabled departure time.

Or more likely passengers do understand this and when they cut if fine they are more hoping to still get it than expecting, and then when they see the train just leaving they complain that it was not delayed by an extra 30 seconds just for them.

These advance door-closing times aren't even consistent across different stations and you can't know which stations apply them unless you are at the station, by which point it's probably too late.

If you want to close doors a bit ahead of the actual departure time, fair enough, but then you should simply advertise that time on the timetable.

If the aim is to educate passengers about how long it takes to get the train ready then this is a fair point. It would be very helpful to pick a fixed time and then stick to it as it would be much easier for passengers to understand.

 

[pendolino]

What's more useful for a passenger to know: when the train physically starts moving, or when they need to be there in order not to miss it?

You think some people are too stupid to realise they might need to be there a few minutes before it goes?

Actually, don't answer that. I already know the answer. But advertising a 'boarding time' or 'check in time' would make no difference.

 

[Schnellzug]

30 seconds? I think it's a minute at Northern, isn't it, there was some discussion about it a little While back. 30 sec doesn't seem too unreasonable, since the Train can only move off when them doors are closed & locked. Anyway, I'm sure staff in most places have a degree of discretion in these matters.

 

[BRX]

You think some people are too stupid to realise they might need to be there a few minutes before it goes?

Actually, don't answer that. I already know the answer. But advertising a 'boarding time' or 'check in time' would make no difference.

Why would you need to be at the platform a few minutes before the advertised departure time?

 

[Greenback]

This is a regularly debated issue on this forum. Most people seem to support this peculiar British practice.

Yes indeed it is debated regularly, and I am one of those people that supports the practice!

What's more useful for a passenger to know: when the train physically starts moving, or when they need to be there in order not to miss it?

They need to know what time the train will leave. The decision what time to arrive at the station should be left to the individuals concerned. It is pretty obvious that relying on turning up a minute or so before will be risky, whereas arriving with ten minutes or so to spare should not eb a problem.

Of course, what normally happens is that people fail to leave sufficient time to park their car, or buy a coffee/paper, and then blame the railway when they miss the train.

The timetable tells you when the train leaves the station. Simple common sense should tell most people that they need to be there in time to get on before it leaves.

Indeed!

If the aim is to educate passengers about how long it takes to get the train ready then this is a fair point. It would be very helpful to pick a fixed time and then stick to it as it would be much easier for passengers to understand.

I agree, but the way the industry is fragmented you will probably get 'advice' from ATOC that all passengers should be at the platform a minimum three minutes before the dpearture time. Different TOC's will continue with their own policies, ensuring that none state anything more than three minutes!

 

[radamfi]

I'm so used to trains running early these days that when I am in Switzerland, for example, I think that trains are running late when they leave on time! Of course, they are interested in maintaining connections over there so early running wouldn't be suitable for their style of operation.

 

[Greenback]

Why would you need to be at the platform a few minutes before the advertised departure time?

To ensure you catch the train? It's soemthing I have always done, since BR days. I sometimes don't make the 1705 train after work, it's cutting it a bit fine to get down 9 floors and sprint to the station in 5 mins, yet I accept that if the clock says 17:04:30 I probably won't get on.

 

[CarterUSM]

Delay attribution runs the railways nowadays, that's it.

 

[michael769]

I agree, but the way the industry is fragmented you will probably get 'advice' from ATOC that all passengers should be at the platform a minimum three minutes before the dpearture time. Different TOC's will continue with their own policies, ensuring that none state anything more than three minutes!

A three minute rule is not entirely unreasonable. I'd not be happy allowing anything less than that, even if it is just to make sure that I get through the barriers!

 

[Greenback]

Delay attribution runs the railways nowadays, that's it.

Most people want the trains to run on time. Especially when they have turned up in plenty of time to catch them! The last thing I want when I'm on board is to wait for someone like myself hurrying along the platform!

 

[Darandio]

What's more useful for a passenger to know: when the train physically starts moving, or when they need to be there in order not to miss it?

Why would you need to be at the platform a few minutes before the advertised departure time?

This thread is a wind up, surely?

 

[Greenback]

A three minute rule is not entirely unreasonable. I'd not be happy allowing anything less than that, even if it is just to make sure that I get through the barriers!

Unless I'm running from work, I usually allow at least five minutes...!

 

[Aictos]

Most passengers are fully capable of understanding they need to be on the platform ready to board before the timetabled departure time.

The timetable tells you what time the train leaves, NOT what time the doors are closed - people are entitled to a ontime service.

In short, let's take a average commuter train - do the staff hold it pass the departure time so a late passenger can board and forget the others passengers waiting for the service at the next stations? Not hard to solve.

Therefore the OP doesn't know what they are talking about - I'm sure the majority here would rather their train left on time even if it meant closing doors up to a minute early.

 

[radamfi]

I wouldn't be happy to arrive on an adjacent platform 2 minutes before my connection and not be allowed on the connecting train!

 

[WestCoast]

Most people want the trains to run on time. Especially when they have turned up in plenty of time to catch them! The last thing I want when I'm on board is to wait for someone like myself hurrying along the platform!

Unless you are changing from a delayed train, and there is no way the train doors would be held open for even 30 odd seconds because of delay attribution.

There are other reasons apart from ignorance and carelessness why people run to try and make trains!

 

[BRX]

It is pretty obvious that relying on turning up a minute or so before will be risky,

It's only risky if it is unclear whether the advertised time is the train-starting-moving time or the when-you-can-actually-get-on-the-train time.

It may be risky to try and turn up one minute before, because all sorts of things might delay your journey to the platform. But that's a risk the passenger can judge, and if they are delayed by one minute getting there and miss the train that's their own problem. I don't see that the passenger should have to take into account the risk of train companies not sticking to a timetable.

Might as well just advertise the time at which the tail lamp leaves the end of the platform, and tell passengers that they'll have to turn up a few minutes earlier than that.

 

[Darandio]

I wouldn't be happy to arrive on an adjacent platform 2 minutes before my connection and not be allowed on the connecting train!

Presumably said arriving train is actually late, and this is not down to your poor planning?

 

[radamfi]

Early running further entrenches the British 'no connection' policy.

 

[BRX]

OK: to those in favour of inconsistent departure times: what exactly is the reason not to advertise the departure time as a minute earlier than the actual time the train needs to start moving to be on time? Why would this be a worse arrangement than the current situation?

 

[mallard]

I kind of see the point here. It's not something I consider all that important, but I can see the point.

Basically, should the timetable tell you when the train starts moving or when the doors close?

Considering that the times in the timetable are often neither (doors close early and train leaves by the WTT, not the public timetable), it would at least make some sense to use at least one of the "real" numbers.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that trains should be held because of late passengers...

 

[BRX]

...and how come do other countries manage to run trains on time without a similarly stupid system?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think anybody is suggesting that trains should be held because of late passengers...

Indeed.

 

[Greenback]

It's only risky if it is unclear whether the advertised time is the train-starting-moving time or the when-you-can-actually-get-on-the-train time.

It may be risky to try and turn up one minute before, because all sorts of things might delay your journey to the platform. But that's a risk the passenger can judge, and if they are delayed by one minute getting there and miss the train that's their own problem. I don't see that the passenger should have to take into account the risk of train companies not sticking to a timetable.

Might as well just advertise the time at which the tail lamp leaves the end of the platform, and tell passengers that they'll have to turn up a few minutes earlier than that.

How are the train companies not sticking to the timetable? The timetable shows departure times!

As has been said before on this subject, you can't turn up at 1428 and expect to board a Stena ferry which is due to leave at 1430. You cna;t arrive at an airport three minutes before the flight leaves and expect to get on either.

Most passengers know they have to turn up in good time for their train. It's not rocket science.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

This is one of those situations where you never win.

It doesn't matter whether you close the doors 1 minute or 30 seconds before departure time, at departure time, or are running a few minutes late and close the doors after departure time. At busy stations there is always someone who is running for the train, and who will get in a strop if you don't let them on and they miss it.

 

[WestCoast]

I don't think anybody is suggesting that trains should be held because of late passengers...

I agree if the delay was outside the railway's control.

If the delay attribution regime was less strict, then TOCs may be willing to hold a train for a minimal amount of time for passengers to board from a key late running connecting service. NOT for people who are just generally running late, but for those who are running late because of the railway.

This is the system used in some parts of mainland Europe, and to an extent it is more user friendly. However, with the current delay attribution regime it isn't going to happen often in Britain.