Train driver and guard attacked at Moss Side station near Lytham

[61653 HTAFC]

It wouldn't surprise me if it was someone on release from Kirkham prison. They have some low security psychiatric cases there. Only a couple of miles down the road, with several local rehabilitation houses

In which case whilst I attach no blame whatsoever to the train crew, and still wouldn't do so if they had decided to "discipline" their assailant with a handy piece of equipment, I'm rather disappointed in the sensationalist reporting that branded the man a "pervert". Unless I've skipped over it, it didn't mention him doing anything to himself, just that he happened to be somewhat underdressed.

Of course, if his reason for being taken off the streets initially was in fact a sexual offence, then I withdraw my objection.

Naked AND his genitalia on full view?

Journalism is great these days

Got to boost that word count somehow!

 

[cool110]

Guards have to expose (no pun intended) themselves to the public. Even if just stepping onto the platform to open & close doors.

Would be more than that at a minimum if heading towards Preston, the level crossing is plunger activated in that direction.

 

[Gloster]

Back in the 70s it would have been swiftly dealt with by the application af a Bardic to the testicles/face (delete as applicable), no further action by civil or BTP

A swinging tail lamp was even more effective.

I may be old fashioned, but it goes with the job that if someone is causing trouble and being, even potentially, threatening, staff have to deal with the matter. They can’t just lock themselves in the cab and leave the passengers to whatever may happen.

 

[6Gman]

A swinging tail lamp was even more effective.

I may be old fashioned, but it goes with the job that if someone is causing trouble and being, even potentially, threatening, staff have to deal with the matter. They can’t just lock themselves in the cab and leave the passengers to whatever may happen.

And if the crew had locked themselves away the headline would have read "Staff hid while passengers were assaulted".

 

[MadMac]

Back in the 70s it would have been swiftly dealt with by the application af a Bardic to the testicles/face (delete as applicable), no further action by civil or BTP

“They don’t like it up ‘em, Captain Mainwaring”

 

[GatwickDepress]

Hope the driver and guard are doing well. I've been assaulted at work before, and it can stay with you.

Naked AND his genitalia on full view?

Journalism is great these days

I suppose he could have been naked, but his genitalia might have been conveniently masked by a prudish privet or a bashful branch?

 

[uglymonkey]

Or a strategically placed policeman's helmet - seen that before with streakers at football and rugby matches.

 

[Sputnik89]

BTP would be a 1-2 hour wait there and the home office & DfT should insist that all 999 calls by railway staff should have the nearest police attend ONLY unless BTP are less than 10 minutes away. Seen a major incident, a grade one call downgraded after BTP "took the job" driving from 34 miles away, despite regular cops being 300 yards away offering to help.

Then go ahead and abolish BTP. Might as well. End the pretence that they actually provide any kind of emergency response for 95% of the network.

Hypothetical- someone is kicking off at Halesworth station. BTP are 90 minutes away, obviously. Suffolk Constabulary attend and arrest. They transport detainee to Great Yarmouth- the designated police station for detainee processing for that part of the world. Assuming a compliant detainee, that is the best part of 3 hours out of service for two officers. 50 minutes there and back. An optimistic 60 minutes in the holding cell and booking in, arrest statements, property booking etc.

All for a job that should be BTP. And, as a spontaneous exercise of powers outside their natural jurisdiction as opposed to mutual aid, all the costs falling on the HO force. Easy to see why HO forces are so reluctant to enage on railway property except for article 2 issues.

 

[Deepgreen]

Naked AND his genitalia on full view?

Journalism is great these days

Also, a "perverted passenger" - fascinating journalism. I suspect the man was intoxicated and/or had mental health issues.

There is a part of me that thinks if he wants to expose himeself, violently assault people, then stand in front of the train to try and block it, drive the train forward to see if his mental disorder extends to a malfunction of fundamental life preservation instincts. If it does then it is one less scum to feed.

No I wouldn't really advocate doing this in reality, but I am fast getting to the point where I have had enough of violence and extremism in this country which if anything seems to be getting worse.

While there was violence, I haven't seen any reference to "extremism" (whatever that means) in the story. It sounds to me as if the man was mentally ill, rather than just a drunken thug, for example.

 

[Sleepy]

A swinging tail lamp was even more effective.

I may be old fashioned, but it goes with the job that if someone is causing trouble and being, even potentially, threatening, staff have to deal with the matter. They can’t just lock themselves in the cab and leave the passengers to whatever may happen.

TOC policy for traincrew is to remove themselves from potential violent situations, taken to extreme the train is going nowhere if they are injured being the logic.

 

[Towers]

Then go ahead and abolish BTP. Might as well. End the pretence that they actually provide any kind of emergency response for 95% of the network.

Hypothetical- someone is kicking off at Halesworth station. BTP are 90 minutes away, obviously. Suffolk Constabulary attend and arrest. They transport detainee to Great Yarmouth- the designated police station for detainee processing for that part of the world. Assuming a compliant detainee, that is the best part of 3 hours out of service for two officers. 50 minutes there and back. An optimistic 60 minutes in the holding cell and booking in, arrest statements, property booking etc.

All for a job that should be BTP. And, as a spontaneous exercise of powers outside their natural jurisdiction as opposed to mutual aid, all the costs falling on the HO force. Easy to see why HO forces are so reluctant to enage on railway property except for article 2 issues.

All police forces are stretched well beyond the point of being able to guarantee any meaningful response, BTP and Home Office alike, but if someone is being assaulted etc then I would certainly expect the local force to turn out if summoned. Local forces are happy to chase suspects onto railway property when they see fit, after all. As for abolition of the BTP, wasn’t there a plan for exactly that in Scotland, which didn’t come to fruition? I suspect a major part of the issue would be the additional force-wide training requirements.

 

[northwichcat]

Back in the 70s

Based on recent news reports many authority figures broke the law as they saw fit then.

 

[Gloster]

TOC policy for traincrew is to remove themselves from potential violent situations, taken to extreme the train is going nowhere if they are injured being the logic.

So do they not have any responsibility to the safety of passengers? Is TOC policy just to abandon the passengers or would a member of staff who was injured if they ignored the policy to assist passengers find themself disciplined or denied sick pay?

Based on recent news reports many authority figures broke the law as they saw fit then.

They have been doing that much more recently. Or is there an exception for work events?

 

[Towers]

So do they not have any responsibility to the safety of passengers? Is TOC policy just to abandon the passengers or would a member of staff who was injured if they ignored the policy to assist passengers find themself disciplined or denied sick pay?

Within reason, yes. Colleagues are expected to avoid conflict and to withdraw and keep themselves safe wherever possible, hand to hand combat defending passengers from violent assailants is not encouraged.

Ultimately, an incapacitated member of staff just becomes an additional liability in the situation, which is of little help to anyone. Obviously in certain situations it would be human nature to intervene, but traincrew are not bouncers nor are they expected to behave as such!

 

[Horizon22]

So do they not have any responsibility to the safety of passengers? Is TOC policy just to abandon the passengers or would a member of staff who was injured if they ignored the policy to assist passengers find themself disciplined or denied sick pay?



They have been doing that much more recently. Or is there an exception for work events?

The same applies to any situation where the public and staff are involved - if it was in a supermarket and someone was running riot, the staff are no more trained to deal with it than anyone else; nobody is being "abandoned", but the best thing to do is call 999 (and other railway sources, e.g. BTP and signaller for a moving train) and try and keep as many people as possible safe which is normally removing yourself (and encouraging others) from the situation.

 

[Falcon1200]

Then go ahead and abolish BTP. Might as well. End the pretence that they actually provide any kind of emergency response for 95% of the network.

That is very unfair; The BT Police cannot, now or ever, be expected to respond as quickly as local Police to somewhere like Halesworth. But in busy, in rail usage terms, areas they are invaluable in providing a rail-focussed response to incidents.

As for abolition of the BTP, wasn’t there a plan for exactly that in Scotland, which didn’t come to fruition?

Indeed there was, and every single person who had any knowledge of rail operations in Scotland was 100% against the idea, for good reason. Thankfully the proposal was ditched.

 

[northwichcat]

The same applies to any situation where the public and staff are involved - if it was in a supermarket and someone was running riot, the staff are no more trained to deal with it than anyone else; nobody is being "abandoned", but the best thing to do is call 999 (and other railway sources, e.g. BTP and signaller for a moving train) and try and keep as many people as possible safe which is normally removing yourself (and encouraging others) from the situation.

Public facing staff should be trained to handle customer service situations. So while they can't prevent an emergency, they should know how to keep customers as safe as possible, especially disabled ones who may need assistance to move to a safe place. The "Inspector Sands" type annoucements are one example. Even though many people know that it can be a call for emergency services, they don't know when drills might be taking place, so have no idea if an "Inspector Sands" annoucement means there's anything wrong or not.

 

[43066]

So do they not have any responsibility to the safety of passengers? Is TOC policy just to abandon the passengers or would a member of staff who was injured if they ignored the policy to assist passengers find themself disciplined or denied sick pay?

What “policy to assist passengers” would that be? Traincrew are not there to act as bodyguards if people turn violent!

Public facing staff should be trained to handle customer service situations. So while they can't prevent an emergency, they should know how to keep customers as safe as possible, especially disabled ones who may need assistance to move to a safe place. The "Inspector Sands" type annoucements are one example. Even though many people know that it can be a call for emergency services, they don't know when drills might be taking place, so have no idea if an "Inspector Sands" annoucement means there's anything wrong or not.

“Customer service situations” do not include dealing with violent actors, and the Inspector Sands announcement isn’t anything to do with this either.

 

[LowLevel]

So do they not have any responsibility to the safety of passengers? Is TOC policy just to abandon the passengers or would a member of staff who was injured if they ignored the policy to assist passengers find themself disciplined or denied sick pay?



They have been doing that much more recently. Or is there an exception for work events?

Absolutely - contact the police, provide them with intelligence, patrol regularly, provide a presence and wherever possible de-escalate situations.

If things turn violent though there is no expectation that someone with a polyester shirt, and a t-key that they're not allowed to shank someone with anyway will intervene.

 

[Gloster]

I can see this discussion going round and round in circles between those who have different views and worked in different eras.

To be brief: the passenger has paid money to the railway company to take them safely from one location to another and this responsibility devolves onto the staff on the spot to the best of their ability. They reasonably, and probably legally, expect the staff to do what they can to ensure their safety, not just lock themselves in the cab and call the police, explaining that that is their company’s policy.

Just to take this to the extremes. If there are only two passenger on a train passing through the middle of nowhere, and a young man starts punching an old lady, do you just lock yourself in the cab and leave her until the police arrive? As said, that takes it to the extremes, but you need to adjust your reaction to whatever is appropriate and there are times when physical intervention, even at the risk of harm to yourself, is appropriate.

 

[LowLevel]

I can see this discussion going round and round in circles between those who have different views and worked in different eras.

To be brief: the passenger has paid money to the railway company to take them safely from one location to another and this responsibility devolves onto the staff on the spot to the best of their ability. They reasonably, and probably legally, expect the staff to do what they can to ensure their safety, not just lock themselves in the cab and call the police, explaining that that is their company’s policy.

Just to take this to the extremes. If there are only two passenger on a train passing through the middle of nowhere, and a young man starts punching an old lady, do you just lock yourself in the cab and leave her until the police arrive? As said, that takes it to the extremes, but you need to adjust your reaction to whatever is appropriate and there are times when physical intervention, even at the risk of harm to yourself, is appropriate.

Personally I am a relatively young rather large man who has a decent amount of life experience including successful physical intervention in assaults. If I thought I was capable of helping then I would and have.

On the other hand train crew aren't recruited on their capability to deal with hand to hand combat in a confined space.

Your example is a poor one because the consequences could be horrific if a violent person overcame both the old lady and the guard and there's no further assistance available. Even the police on occasion will wait for back up.

Two bodies are not better than one for the sake of some misplaced concept of honour.

 

[43066]

To be brief: the passenger has paid money to the railway company to take them safely from one location to another and this responsibility devolves onto the staff on the spot to the best of their ability. They reasonably, and probably legally, expect the staff to do what they can to ensure their safety, not just lock themselves in the cab and call the police, explaining that that is their company’s policy.

This is incorrect. The duty of the railway is to get you from A to B, not to protect you from other passengers. If someone is obvious intoxicated/dangerous they will likely be refused travel, but if a fight breaks out on a train staff are not required to put themselves in danger either by company policy, which will specifically state they should withdraw and avoid physical conflict, or “legally”. What the passenger might expect, and the fact they have paid for a ticket, is neither here nor there.

Just to take this to the extremes. If there are only two passenger on a train passing through the middle of nowhere, and a young man starts punching an old lady, do you just lock yourself in the cab and leave her until the police arrive? As said, that takes it to the extremes, but you need to adjust your reaction to whatever is appropriate and there are times when physical intervention, even at the risk of harm to yourself, is appropriate.

It would be entirely down to the individual. There is no more duty upon staff members to intervene in that situation than there is on other passengers. What if the guard is also an old lady?

 

[Aviator88]

Within reason, yes. Colleagues are expected to avoid conflict and to withdraw and keep themselves safe wherever possible, hand to hand combat defending passengers from violent assailants is not encouraged.

Ultimately, an incapacitated member of staff just becomes an additional liability in the situation, which is of little help to anyone. Obviously in certain situations it would be human nature to intervene, but traincrew are not bouncers nor are they expected to behave as such!

I'm starting as a trainee driver soon, and my missus posed a similar question...

"If you were in the cab and you saw your (female) guard being assaulted by a group of three handy looking blokes, would you go out and help them?"

Gender aside (we have a female family member who is a guard, hence the specificity), it did cause me a moral dilemma. Every fibre of my human nature wants to put a stop to an assault like this, but in the context of the role, I said I'd have to keep myself safe first and foremost to coordinate a police response from the cab because if I'm getting my head kicked in, it could result in both of us lying there bleeding out with nobody aware of what's happening.

I'd be interested to hear how others have potentially dealt with a nasty situation like this.

 

[baz962]

I can see this discussion going round and round in circles between those who have different views and worked in different eras.

To be brief: the passenger has paid money to the railway company to take them safely from one location to another and this responsibility devolves onto the staff on the spot to the best of their ability. They reasonably, and probably legally, expect the staff to do what they can to ensure their safety, not just lock themselves in the cab and call the police, explaining that that is their company’s policy.

Just to take this to the extremes. If there are only two passenger on a train passing through the middle of nowhere, and a young man starts punching an old lady, do you just lock yourself in the cab and leave her until the police arrive? As said, that takes it to the extremes, but you need to adjust your reaction to whatever is appropriate and there are times when physical intervention, even at the risk of harm to yourself, is appropriate.

I'm an ex doorman and also trained by the military in close protection and I very rarely would get involved. You could get stabbed etc. Also if you do touch someone physically even in self defence or defence of others , you will be suspended almost certainly and will need the union to help you.

 

[LowLevel]

I'm starting as a trainee driver soon, and my missus posed a similar question...

"If you were in the cab and you saw your (female) guard being assaulted by a group of three handy looking blokes, would you go out and help them?"

Gender aside (we have a female family member who is a guard, hence the specificity), it did cause me a moral dilemma. Every fibre of my human nature wants to put a stop to an assault like this, but in the context of the role, I said I'd have to keep myself safe first and foremost to coordinate a police response from the cab because if I'm getting my head kicked in, it could result in both of us lying there bleeding out with nobody aware of what's happening.

I'd be interested to hear how others have potentially dealt with a nasty situation like this.

If at all possible try and drag your colleague into the cab and slam the door.

Years ago I temporarily resolved a situation with a "gentleman' attempting to do in a gateline assistant by dragging him into the cab (with the assistance of the driver) and then advised the chap in question that if he broke the door in I'd be hitting him in the face with the fire extinguisher.

A group of football fans jumped him and threw him off the train and then police arrived and he punched one of them in the face.

Best advice - don't worry about it. You don't really know how you'll react and you are recruited for your situational judgement. Whatever happens you'll do your best in the circumstances and that's all that anyone can ask.

 

[185]

Then go ahead and abolish BTP. Might as well. End the pretence that they actually provide any kind of emergency response for 95% of the network.

At present I am monitoring an investigation into an extremely serious job which BTP intercepted and subsequently downgraded to (allegedly) justify their long attendance time. Fortunately passengers had the perpetrator - but that shouldn't be needed.

For the few good coppers at BTP I don't want to see them shut down anytime soon, however for those lazy cops who've come from other forces for an easy number - I've no time for them and they belong elsewhere.

In the way BTP are managed, it's a disjointed mess, with one person last week showing me an unanswered call lasting 17 minutes to their non emergency number based in Birmingham - after two 61016 went unanswered (except for the autoreply). One local inspector sent an email out to TOCs six months ago to warn them "not to call police stations - only the Birmingham Call Centre".

When finally connected, the subsequent call recording was worse than calling NRE, with the call handler asking to spell a fairly well known station and asking the lady what exactly her job is after not understanding the job title.

 

[Aviator88]

If at all possible try and drag your colleague into the cab and slam the door.

Years ago I temporarily resolved a situation with a "gentleman' attempting to do in a gateline assistant by dragging him into the cab (with the assistance of the driver) and then advised the chap in question that if he broke the door in I'd be hitting him in the face with the fire extinguisher.

A group of football fans jumped him and threw him off the train and then police arrived and he punched one of them in the face.

Best advice - don't worry about it. You don't really know how you'll react and you are recruited for your situational judgement. Whatever happens you'll do your best in the circumstances and that's all that anyone can ask.

Sounds like a proportionate response.

I've practiced Krav Maga for many years which, for those unaware, is a fighting system designed to incapacitate your assailant quickly so you can escape. But, like most martial arts, rule number one is to always try to talk/walk/run your way out of a situation. As is alluded to above, all it takes is for a knife to be produced and it's pretty much game over if you can't get away.

The hard questions come where you have a perceived duty to somebody else who may already be injured/at risk of a violent assault.

I think what you've said demonstrates that these situations are fluid and different every time, and the response needs to be tailored to the perceived threat in the moment.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm starting as a trainee driver soon, and my missus posed a similar question...

"If you were in the cab and you saw your (female) guard being assaulted by a group of three handy looking blokes, would you go out and help them?"

Gender aside (we have a female family member who is a guard, hence the specificity), it did cause me a moral dilemma. Every fibre of my human nature wants to put a stop to an assault like this, but in the context of the role, I said I'd have to keep myself safe first and foremost to coordinate a police response from the cab because if I'm getting my head kicked in, it could result in both of us lying there bleeding out with nobody aware of what's happening.

I'd be interested to hear how others have potentially dealt with a nasty situation like this.

That's a perfectly valid question to ask. Most men are generally act more protective towards women and girls without even thinking about it.

One thing to consider is it won't just be drivers who react differently to a female guard being attacked, passengers may be more likely to do something in response to a slim female guard, than a male guard who has a similar build to a typical doorman.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I would not take sides on this scenario as both sides would be at fault by indangering themselves and possibly more passengers.

A lot of discussion about this statement. If the poster meant taking sides in an altercatiuon betweeen passengers - no, that would be difficult. Trying to separate them is the best you can hope for. But between a passenger and a colleague? Of course you should back yur colleague up. .

 

[D365]

But surely blocking the train would of been a waste of time as he already incompassitated the driver and guard? Would be interesting to know how all this materiated though.

That’s assuming that the suspect was in their right mind.

EDIT: I see I’m not the first to suggest this.