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Train Driver in hospital after yobs hurl brick through windscreen (04/02)

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mainframe444

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From the Manchester Evening News….

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...s/train-driver-rushed-hospital-after-23021519

“A train driver had to be taken to hospital after a brick was thrown at the windscreen of the front carriage while moving.

Northern have issued a plea for information following the ‘shocking’ and ‘reckless’ incident, which occurred over the weekend.

The rail operator said as a train was travelling towards Clifton on Friday evening (February 4) at around 10pm, a brick was thrown at the windscreen, causing it to smash.

Chris Jackson, regional director at Northern, said: “It’s hard to believe that anyone would put the safety of others at risk by such reckless behaviour.

“The consequences of a brick hitting a fast-moving train are potentially devastating. This was a shocking incident that could have had fatal consequences.”


What is wrong with these people??

M
 
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gorilladan

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Hope our colleague makes a speedy recovery. Does anyone know if the train windscreen is designed to stay in 1 piece once it has been shattered ? I understand that it's laminated (with 3 layers?) but in this instance shards/small pieces/powdered glass particles came through into cab, striking the driver about the face & body and covering the driving desk etc in small glass pieces.
Unit would have been travelling at approx 70mph at that location based on my experience.
What mitigations could be put in place to prevent these shards being forced into the cab ?
Thankyou
 

Trainer2

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A few times I have helped replace windscreens, they act similar to car windscreens as in they break and retain some structure.

Never seen one with a brick thrown at it, doubt it would have gone through unless it was a high speed train.
 

John Luxton

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When caught I really do think perpetrators of this sort of action should be charged with attempted murder.

Back in the late 70s I was on a first generation DMU on the north Wales coast line travelling to Llandudno near Abergele when some kids dropped half a brick from a bridge - went through the middle window fortunately.

There was the glass screen between the driving compartment and passenger saloon but the force with which the window imploded certainly shook me up and I still think to this day what I might have witnessed if they had got the driver. The brick hit the door window as well but didn't break it.

The driver stopped and checked if the passengers were okay before proceeding to Abergele where he reported it.

We then continued to Llandudno without the window.
 

LondonExile

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Attempted murder or attempted manslaughter. Needs some tough deterring sentences. Awful for the driver. Criminal yobbish, thuggish behaviour.

Attempted Murder is difficult to convict for as you need to prove they intended to kill. It's easier to prove intent for murder, where you only need to show they intended serious harm. There's no concept of attempted manslaughter - if it can be shown you intended to kill, then it's attempted murder, and if you can't show that it's likely to be either GBH or some health and safety charge.

There is however a specific railway offence criminalising precisely these actions. It also carries a maximum penalty of life imprisonment. What sentence you would actually receive is perhaps up for question, as I'm not sure this crime is one judges see regularly, but it is the most specific offence on our statute books for this criminal act.

Section 33 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 "Casting stone, &c. upon a railway carriage, with intent to endanger the safety of any person therein."

 

PowerLee

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Would it be possible to use 2 x laminated screens as a retro fit OR in future designs?

Or could a ballistic glass screen be used instead? Cost shouldn't come in to it when its to to protect the human in command of a train potentially full of other humans.
 

greyman42

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Would it be possible to use 2 x laminated screens as a retro fit OR in future designs?

Or could a ballistic glass screen be used instead? Cost shouldn't come in to it when its to to protect the human in command of a train potentially full of other humans.
Cost will always come into it, be that right or wrong.
 

norbitonflyer

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Attempted murder or attempted manslaughter. Needs some tough deterring sentences. Awful for the driver. Criminal yobbish, thuggish behaviour.
Attempted manslaughter is a contradiction, because manslaughter by definition is an accidental death caused by the irresponsible actions of another. (Compare suicide and misadventure for self-inflicted deaths).
 

greyman42

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The maximum sentence for criminal damage where there is an intention to endanger life, intentionally or recklessly, is life imprisonment.
 

irish_rail

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I got told a HST had the equivalent of bullet proof glass on the front after I hit stones at 125mph which shattered the windscreen. It did its job that day. Thoughts with the driver in Manchester....
 

GRALISTAIR

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Attempted manslaughter is a contradiction, because manslaughter by definition is an accidental death caused by the irresponsible actions of another. (Compare suicide and misadventure for self-inflicted deaths).
Problem is I am not up-to-date on British law. In USA we have murder, 1,2,3 so graded if you like.

Anyway horrible yobbish behaviour
 

O L Leigh

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When caught I really do think perpetrators of this sort of action should be charged with attempted murder.

The problem with that is that, while it satisfies us emotionally, such an ambitious prosecution is likely to result in an acquittal. It would be better to pursue a more realistic prosecution that gives a good chance of a conviction. Proving intent to kill in an incident like this is going to be very hard.

Most train windscreens have an anti-spalling layer on the inside to ensure it retains it’s structural integrity. I’m a little surprised that a brick thrown at a 70mph service resulted in the inside of the windscreen splintering. The only other incident I know of where something like this happened was where a fire extinguisher was thrown from a moving train and struck the windscreen of another coming the other way at a closing speed of 160mph.

Best wishes for a speedy and full recovery to the driver involved.
 

Islineclear3_1

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Used to happen a lot in Southeast London; yobs out for a laugh with no thought or care of the consequences.

Even if a brick misses the windscreen and hits the roof of the train, the resultant bang can still be frightening. Travelled a lot in EPBs in the 1980s and this was rife
 

Gostav

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In many countries, intentional sabotage of transportation system with serious consequences is a felony.
 

Ash Bridge

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I got told a HST had the equivalent of bullet proof glass on the front after I hit stones at 125mph which shattered the windscreen. It did its job that day. Thoughts with the driver in Manchester....
I read in an article some years ago that the the prototype HST, APT-E & Concorde Airliners had the the same type of specially developed glass (Triplex branded) fitted in their windscreens. From memory it was something like being able to withstand an impact with an object such as a bird, stone etc. at up to 250 mph. nontheless that must have been a rather awful thing to experience though @irish_rail ! My thoughts also for the Northern driver.
 
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I've been on a train where a slab has come through the window at the bay of tables behind me and my Dad , this was near Nitshill going to Barrhead at night in the mid 90s. Needless today in true Glasweigan style my Dad turned the air blue along with the guard who said it happens all.the time. Doubt it's changed. In all.seriousness we could have been seriously injured had it been seconds earlier.
 

Towers

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It is some small comfort to see that in many/most of these idiotic incidents the strength of the windscreens is rather impressive, even on an ancient 150! Admittedly there was some incursion of small glass particles, but overall the glass likely saved the driver's life. Things would be a hell of a lot worse if these screens weren't so strong.
 

Bevan Price

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Used to happen a lot in Southeast London; yobs out for a laugh with no thought or care of the consequences.

Even if a brick misses the windscreen and hits the roof of the train, the resultant bang can still be frightening. Travelled a lot in EPBs in the 1980s and this was rife
And things worse than bricks...In the 1970s (or early 80s), I was on a train between New Cross & London Bridge when what was probably an air-rifle bullet hit a window about 2-3 feet away from me.
 

Yankee01

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These incidents are far too common. This incident, also involving Northern, happened last October.


What is extraordinarily rare is being able to find the people who committed these acts.
 

185143

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I was once on a Merseyrail train when a brick was lobbed at us, shattering the outer pane of the window infront of me. Alighted at Freshfield to report it to the driver, as it was coach 1 of 6. Was most disappointed when the guard gave two on the bell, obviously oblivious, and the driver rang him to tell him what had happened and he was examining it. Upon doing so he got back in his cab and effed off! Had it damaged the inner pane I'd of course have hit the emergency alarm.
 

the sniper

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Was most disappointed when the guard gave two on the bell, obviously oblivious, and the driver rang him to tell him what had happened and he was examining it.

Probably thought you were giving the Driver grief. By shutting the doors and giving two, they gave the Driver the option to get away if needs be.
 

43066

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From the Manchester Evening News….

Train driver in hospital after yobs hurl brick through carriage windscreen
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...s/train-driver-rushed-hospital-after-23021519

A train driver had to be taken to hospital after a brick was thrown at the windscreen of the front carriage while moving.

Northern have issued a plea for information following the ‘shocking’ and ‘reckless’ incident, which occurred over the weekend.

The rail operator said as a train was travelling towards Clifton on Friday evening (February 4) at around 10pm, a brick was thrown at the windscreen, causing it to smash.


What is wrong with these people??

M

Absolutely unspeakable thing to do, and thoughts with the driver of course.

Also frankly extremely worrying that windscreens aren’t tough enough to withstand this. There was also an unpleasant incident involving injury to a driver following a windscreen implosion caused by a fatality recently (not the first time that has happened either). It does appear that windscreens, on some some stock at least, aren’t as tough as one might expect.
 

185143

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Probably thought you were giving the Driver grief. By shutting the doors and giving two, they gave the Driver the option to get away if needs be.
Quite possibly, though after the driver picked up the handset and then left the cab I'd have thought it were obvious all was not as it may have seemed. Still, it was only 10 minutes for the next train at least!
 

HowardGWR

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Attempted Murder is difficult to convict for as you need to prove they intended to kill. It's easier to prove intent for murder, where you only need to show they intended serious harm. There's no concept of attempted manslaughter - if it can be shown you intended to kill, then it's attempted murder, and if you can't show that it's likely to be either GBH or some health and safety charge.

There is however a specific railway offence criminalising precisely these actions. It also carries a maximum penalty of life imprisonment. What sentence you would actually receive is perhaps up for question, as I'm not sure this crime is one judges see regularly, but it is the most specific offence on our statute books for this criminal act.

Section 33 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 "Casting stone, &c. upon a railway carriage, with intent to endanger the safety of any person therein."


Subsequent posters seem to have missed your very helpful contribution so I hope this above will clear it up for them. We have an offence already in law, apparently, and it is potentially punishable with life improsonment. Seems fair to me.
 

Towers

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....Had it damaged the inner pane I'd of course have hit the emergency alarm.
Whilst this may at first seem the obvious thing to do, the problem with this response - particularly on older stock such as Merseyrail's where there is no brake override - is that the train then comes to a grinding halt and potentially becomes a static target for the brainless morons with the missiles. Provided nobody is in immediate danger on board, it's better to allow the train to get well clear of the area first, although I appreciate that this may not be most people's first consideration!


These incidents are far too common. This incident, also involving Northern, happened last October.


What is extraordinarily rare is being able to find the people who committed these acts.
There is clearly insufficient legal deterrent currently, as discussed above it's difficult to pass a sentence which adequately reflects the massive potential consequences of this sort of utter idiocy, even if there's an injury resulting.

Given that this sort of behaviour happens often, aimed at the railways as well as at road vehicles (often buses, where the consequences are potentially enormous if the driver is incapacitated), and given that it has caused deaths in the past, I do think that perhaps it justifies an offence in itself. Perhaps along the lines of "wilful endangerment of a moving vehicle" or similar, with a harsh sentence and which applies simply by virtue of launching the projectile, regardless of the outcome. Might focus a few minds.
 
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furnessvale

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Subsequent posters seem to have missed your very helpful contribution so I hope this above will clear it up for them. We have an offence already in law, apparently, and it is potentially punishable with life improsonment. Seems fair to me.
As useful as these offences are, they are better used where no actual injury or damage is caused. If there is a substantive GBH or serious damage, courts seem to appreciate the gravity of those charges rather than more archaic "stonethrowing" type charges.
 

Donny_m

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Whilst this may at first seem the obvious thing to do, the problem with this response - particularly on older stock such as Merseyrail's where there is no brake override - is that the train then comes to a grinding halt and potentially becomes a static target for the brainless morons with the missiles. Provided nobody is in immediate danger on board, it's better to allow the train to get well clear of the area first, although I appreciate that this may not be most people's first consideration!



There is clearly insufficient legal deterrent currently, as discussed above it's difficult to pass a sentence which adequately reflects the massive potential consequences of this sort of utter idiocy, even if there's an injury resulting.

Given that this sort of behaviour happens often, aimed at the railways as well as at road vehicles (often buses, where the consequences are potentially enormous if the driver is incapacitated), and given that it has caused deaths in the past, I do think that perhaps it justifies an offence in itself. Perhaps along the lines of "wilful endangerment of a moving vehicle" or similar, with a harsh sentence and which applies simply by virtue of launching the projectile, regardless of the outcome. Might focus a few minds.

Legal deterrents are somewhat of a myth. People who were serving serious sentences for various crimes big and small were polled and 100% said the punishment was of no concern, they only did the crime because they felt certain they wouldn’t get caught.
 
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