Train drivers hours.

[philthetube]

With all the talk about RDW at Northern I was wondering what are the maximum hours a driver can work. I think that they have to have 12 hours off between shifts but do they have to have rest days every so often or can drivers work 7 days every week.

Are hours comparable with a coach drivers and if not should they be?

 

[JoDo]

Drivers have to follow HIDDEN Rules:
1. Can work no more than 12hrs per shift
2. Must have a minimum of 12hrs rest between shifts
3. Can work a max of 72hrs a week.
4. Can work a max of 13 consecutive days with out a rest day.

 

[beavercreek]

Drivers have to follow HIDDEN Rules:
1. Can work no more than 12hrs per shift
2. Must have a minimum of 12hrs rest between shifts
3. Can work a max of 72hrs a week.
4. Can work a max of 13 consecutive days with out a rest day.

Pretty much this on (depending on the toc) and average 35hr week.
My Toc has a maximum 10hr shift.

 

[Bromley boy]

Drivers have to follow HIDDEN Rules:
1. Can work no more than 12hrs per shift
2. Must have a minimum of 12hrs rest between shifts
3. Can work a max of 72hrs a week.
4. Can work a max of 13 consecutive days with out a rest day.

Indeed.

Although it’s worth noting that most rosters are well within Hidden, it only generally comes into play when shift swaps and rest day working are taken into account.

No idea what coach driver hours are like so couldn’t really compare the two.

 

[rebmcr]

4. Can work a max of 13 consecutive days with out a rest day.

What counts as a 'rest day' for this purpose? Would something crazy like "12:00-23:59 Tuesday + 00:01-12:00 Thursday" technically be compliant?

 

[Qwerty133]

Pretty much this on (depending on the toc) and average 35hr week.
My Toc has a maximum 10hr shift.

Is that a maximum 10 hours scheduled or a must stop driving at 10 hours even if disruption means you are not back at your home depot?

 

[hooverboy]

Drivers have to follow HIDDEN Rules:
1. Can work no more than 12hrs per shift
2. Must have a minimum of 12hrs rest between shifts
3. Can work a max of 72hrs a week.
4. Can work a max of 13 consecutive days with out a rest day.

god,you lot really do have it easy!!!

when I go on site I break all 5 of them rules consistently.

 

[Overspeed110]

Don't forget they only work 7 hours a day when training

 

[scotraildriver]

god,you lot really do have it easy!!!

when I go on site I break all 5 of them rules consistently.

But how many people would you kill(instantly) if you fell asleep or made a mistake on site?

 

[Loop & Link]

god,you lot really do have it easy!!!

when I go on site I break all 5 of them rules consistently.

Yes, shame about that pesky Hidden rule, brought in after the Clapham Junction rail disaster

 

[driver9000]

Is that a maximum 10 hours scheduled or a must stop driving at 10 hours even if disruption means you are not back at your home depot?

Maximum day of 10 hours. Not necessarily driving for 10 hours. At my company we can go to 11 hours but can't drive in the 11th hour.

 

[DanTrain]

Another question: what’s the longest a driver can drive for without a PNB - I inagine it’s a few hours on InterCity services?

 

[dk1]

We can be rostered a maximum of 10hrs at GA ex-Anglia (GE & WAGN are totally different) with a minimum of 6hrs. FDW & Sundays can be no less than 8hrs. We get paid any extra but under is written off in our favour. There is then the minimum driving hours & of course when PNBs must be provided.

 

[Bigfoot]

What counts as a 'rest day' for this purpose? Would something crazy like "12:00-23:59 Tuesday + 00:01-12:00 Thursday" technically be compliant?

If you're including Wednesday in that yes...

 

[TractiveEffort]

“The Hidden rule” as such, no longer exists, each TOC or FOC has their own working hours and fatigue policy.

 

[theironroad]

“The Hidden rule” as such, no longer exists, each TOC or FOC has their own working hours and fatigue policy.

I'm not certain 'hidden' 'rules' were ever enshrined in law. The 'rules' were the recommendations of Lord Hidden's enquiry post Clapham and were fully adopted by the railway industry and have been followed since as i doubt any part of the industry would want to to be seen weakening the rules and leading to another Clapham style tragedy.

 

[TractiveEffort]

I'm not certain 'hidden' 'rules' were ever enshrined in law. The 'rules' were the recommendations of Lord Hidden's enquiry post Clapham and were fully adopted by the railway industry and have been followed since as i doubt any part of the industry would want to to be seen weakening the rules and leading to another Clapham style tragedy.

You’re right, they were a recommendation that came out of his enquiry, adopted by the railway and often referred to as the Hidden regulations. A while back each operator had to have their own policy and from those I have seen, they don’t venture far from the original recommendations.

Obviously if there is a genuine reason to exceed the the hours laid down, there is an exemption that can be granted by Managers, but it’s not often done lightly, only when dealing with an incident or if a train gets delayed and takes crew over the 12 hours.

 

[philthetube]

Train drivers can work loads more than coach drivers then, this surprises me, loads more than underground as well, (no rest days or overtime, unless delayed on job on the underground)

Very rough guide on coaches
9 hours driving daily can be 10 twice a week.
56 hours max a week / 90 in a fortnight
11 hours min rest, can be 9 3 times a week
no more than 6 days without a rest day
minimum rest 24 hours one week 45 the next, effectively 6 days one week five the next

There are other bits and some exemptions but that is basically it

Underground, sure some will be interested
Strict 5 day week unless nights when 7 are allowed but followed by 3 the following week
8.30 max working day, only exception 9.30 when clocks go back for night staff
12 hours min rest.
These rules are set in stone.

 

[DanDaDriver]

Train drivers can work loads more than coach drivers then, this surprises me, loads more than underground as well, (no rest days or overtime, unless delayed on job on the underground)

Very rough guide on coaches
9 hours driving daily can be 10 twice a week.
56 hours max a week / 90 in a fortnight
11 hours min rest, can be 9 3 times a week
no more than 6 days without a rest day
minimum rest 24 hours one week 45 the next, effectively 6 days one week five the next

There are other bits and some exemptions but that is basically it

Underground, sure some will be interested
Strict 5 day week unless nights when 7 are allowed but followed by 3 the following week
8.30 max working day, only exception 9.30 when clocks go back for night staff
12 hours min rest.
These rules are set in stone.

Which is odd when you consider that The Underground isn’t even proper train driving.....

 

[bionic]

My depot is full of people who constantly moan about how rough the turns are but can't get enough of voluntarily coming in to work them on their days off!

 

[whhistle]

Maximum day of 10 hours. Not necessarily driving for 10 hours. At my company we can go to 11 hours but can't drive in the 11th hour.

I was going to mention this.
Many TOCs can, with special permission, allow working past the 12 hours but if a safety critical member of staff, they can't do any safety critical work past that 12th hour.

The 'rules' were the recommendations of Lord Hidden's enquiry post Clapham...

Really?!
I always thought the "hidden" name was because you were "hidden" from the rota.

 

[theironroad]

I was going to mention this.
Many TOCs can, with special permission, allow working past the 12 hours but if a safety critical member of staff, they can't do any safety critical work past that 12th hour.



Really?!
I always thought the "hidden" name was because you were "hidden" from the rota.

I'll slightly correctct myself in that Anthony Hidden was not a peer but did have a knighthood. He was a QC and later a judge.

The link below takes you to a PDF of Hidden's report.:

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Hidden001.pdf

 

[Carlisle]

i doubt any part of the industry would want to to be seen weakening the rules and leading to another Clapham style tragedy.

True, but the excessive hours problem in the case of the Clapham accident involved S&T technicians not drivers as far as I can remember.

 

[theironroad]

True, but the excessive hours problem in the case of the Clapham accident involved S&T technicians not drivers as far as I can remember.

Indeed. Although Hidden said there was a collective responsibility for the accident and the cultural practices in the BR s&t were contributory, the mis-wiring of the signal was attributed to a particular technician. It was identified in the enquiry that this man had had "one sole day off" in the 13 weeks prior to the accident. That's one day off in 3 months because of the overtime culture.

 

[driver9000]

Another question: what’s the longest a driver can drive for without a PNB - I inagine it’s a few hours on InterCity services?

It varies between companies, I can drive for 4h30 before needing a PNB. If I'm working nights then it's 3hr30.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Another question: what’s the longest a driver can drive for without a PNB - I inagine it’s a few hours on InterCity services?

It varies between companies, I can drive for 4h30 before needing a PNB. If I'm working nights then it's 3hr30.

Our guys can do 5hrs passenger work, 3hrs if only ECS

 

[Moonshot]

My depot is full of people who constantly moan about how rough the turns are but can't get enough of voluntarily coming in to work them on their days off!

It's endemic with guards as well. But let's be honest here, the hours are great, and no guard or driver on a 35 hour week will actually spend 35 hours at either end of the train

 

[TractiveEffort]

I was going to mention this.
Many TOCs can, with special permission, allow working past the 12 hours but if a safety critical member of staff, they can't do any safety critical work past that 12th hour.

If there is no other option and the Manager granting the exceedance is satisfied the Safety Critical worker is not fatigued and the work won’t be compromised, then they can work over, I have done a 17 hour shift dealing with an incident at a level crossing.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Train drivers can work loads more than coach drivers then, this surprises me, loads more than underground as well, (no rest days or overtime, unless delayed on job on the underground)

Very rough guide on coaches
9 hours driving daily can be 10 twice a week.
56 hours max a week / 90 in a fortnight
11 hours min rest, can be 9 3 times a week
no more than 6 days without a rest day
minimum rest 24 hours one week 45 the next, effectively 6 days one week five the next

There are other bits and some exemptions but that is basically it

Underground, sure some will be interested
Strict 5 day week unless nights when 7 are allowed but followed by 3 the following week
8.30 max working day, only exception 9.30 when clocks go back for night staff
12 hours min rest.
These rules are set in stone.

Direct comparisons are always tricky. Bus drivers of course can work more. 10.5 hours a day driving, but can be at "work" for 16 hours. No more than 5.5 hours driving without a break though. They can do 13 days without 24 hours off, this doesn't need to be a "day" If you finish at 13:59 on Monday, you can be back in at 14:00 on Tuesday and had the 24 hour rest.

An example, Blackpool Transport can use their drivers (if they wanted to) to drive buses 10.5 hours a day, then they can be a conductor on the trams for another 5.5 hours a day (work that isn't driving), they then need 10 hours off before doing it all again! And they can do that for 13 days, before needing 24 hours off.

Other non-driving work includes "driving" the inspectors around (that driving isn't counted in driving hours due to lack of passenger seats) or cleaning buses/coaches, or indeed any other of a multitude of tasks!

Of course it is more complex than that, but that is it in simplicity.

 

[sw1ller]

Direct comparisons are always tricky. Bus drivers of course can work more. 10.5 hours a day driving, but can be at "work" for 16 hours. No more than 5.5 hours driving without a break though. They can do 13 days without 24 hours off, this doesn't need to be a "day" If you finish at 13:59 on Monday, you can be back in at 14:00 on Tuesday and had the 24 hour rest.

An example, Blackpool Transport can use their drivers (if they wanted to) to drive buses 10.5 hours a day, then they can be a conductor on the trams for another 5.5 hours a day (work that isn't driving), they then need 10 hours off before doing it all again! And they can do that for 13 days, before needing 24 hours off.

Other non-driving work includes "driving" the inspectors around (that driving isn't counted in driving hours due to lack of passenger seats) or cleaning buses/coaches, or indeed any other of a multitude of tasks!

Of course it is more complex than that, but that is it in simplicity.

Before my new role as train driver I was a lorry driver with a coach licence for 15 years. I only used the coach part of my licence 15-20 at most in the UK. So I have absolutely no clue about Bus driving.

I have to say, if what you’re saying here is accurate, I’m totally in shock. I thought if there was a difference in coach or lorry driving, it would be more restrictive given the high volume of city driving and passenger count.

“Driving” conductors around isn’t counted to drivers hours due to the lack of seats..... however, if you drive your own car to a place that isn’t your main depot, as a HGV driver, then that time must be added to your driving hours, so why is a bus driver any different??

Double manning is even more complicated in the HGV world. You don’t have to start together but you must finish together once the digi cards are inserted into BOTH slots.

An example of this was one place I worked would only pay you if your card was in a tachometer, some lads needed a lift to a quarry 25 minutes away as a regular move to pick up their wagon (car parked at depot) not wanting to lose out on 25 minutes pay they would pop their card into slot 2 for the journey (quite rightly too, no one should have to work for free) then take it out and put it in their own lorry. In reality, this is perfectly safe and makes sense. In the world of mad EU legislation though, a complete no no and would give you and the temporary 2nd man major infringements.

Another note on HGV. you CAN drive for 10 hours twice a week and you CAN extend your workday from 13 to 15 hours 3 times a week. But that’s at YOUR OWN DISCRETION. You should never be rostered or planned to work like this. It’s to help you get home in times of disruption. Traffic planners always try to manipulate drivers into using time which is not theirs to use. One of my major bugbares.