Train drivers overpaid?

[Seejwalker]

Signallers are definitely overpaid. Stare at TV screens all day and drink tea

And drivers only control one train whereas we control hundreds daily.
All whilst drinking Tea

 

[deaftech]

I was gobsmacked recently when I saw a recruiting poster on the back of a local bus boasting about offering ￡13 per hour for drivers. I thought to myself, "No wonder you are short of drivers if that is the pathetic wage that you are offering". However physics34's post shows that this is par for the course for bus drivers. The fact that train drivers are better paid is clearly due to the leadership shown by their union and the support given by their members. If bus drivers, and other workers, showed the same courage as ASLEF members then there would be a far fairer and equitable distribution of economic resources in this country.

 

[RJ]

The amount of double deckers that have the top section driven into a low bridge... enough said

Safety incidents are not exclusive to bus drivers. What point are you making?

 

[Flying Snail]

The fact that train drivers are better paid is clearly due to the leadership shown by their union and the support given by their members. If bus drivers, and other workers, showed the same courage as ASLEF members then there would be a far fairer and equitable distribution of economic resources in this country.

So it's all the fault of the low paid that they are low paid? What absolute garbage, offensive garbage at that.

 

[class ep-09]

Absolutely.

No diver will whinge about their salary

Not sure about that …. )))

 

[Stigy]

Can anyone think of a decent come back for me to say to my coach driver colleague (an ex teacher) who thinks I get £50k for striking and pushing some buttons ?

Ask them how many trains they’ve driven. I’d also say I wouldn’t get out of bed for £50k

And drivers only control one train whereas we control hundreds daily.
All whilst drinking Tea

Ah, but we have to multitask whilst drinking our tea.

 

[Pk89]

I work on a chemical manufacturing site and the operators here are paid similar wage to train drivers (when you include their shift work for unsociable hours which is included in driver wages). Most of the time they come to work, walk around and check a few numbers are reading correctly, maybe make some adjustments and then go sit in a room full of alarms and lights and watch TV. On nights (some) even manage to get a good few hours sleep (not allowed but it happens).

Nobody questions if they are overpaid because it has taken them years to learn each plant area they operate and if there is a problem they deal with it efficiently because they are well trained. The laboratory staff on chemical sites are paid much less even though they have degree qualifications because their job can be picked up with a few weeks of training as long as you have previous lab experience. The main thing here is if the plant operators do not know how to do their job, it could result in injuries or even death to hundreds of people including the general public. The drain driver scenario is exactly the same I would think. That's why they get paid what they do.

 

[74A]

Bus driver £25k
Coach/Lorry Driver £35k
Train Driver £50-60k
Pilot £50k -£150k.

I think the scale looks ok.
We're not Overpaid, we are well paid.

Train driver 40 -100k

 

[O L Leigh]

Train driver 40 -100k

Who's paying £100k (he asked while sharpening up his CV)?

 

[baz962]

And drivers only control one train whereas we control hundreds daily.
All whilst drinking Tea

We do it at 125 In the fog , almost with our eyes shut. You just put it on automatic route setting and it doesn't even need you.

Who's paying £100k (he asked while sharpening up his CV)?

No one. Possibly some drivers with overtime. The top are Eurostar, about to hit 81 and freightliner rapid deployment driver around 85.

 

[ExRes]

Who's paying £100k (he asked while sharpening up his CV)?

Very good question, presumably @74A is bringing overtime into the equation?

 

[O L Leigh]

Very good question, presumably @74A is bringing overtime into the equation?

I assumed he must be, hence my question. I which case, it isn't a fair comparison unless you also include the O/T for these other jobs. Far better to keep this about the basic, I'd argue.

 

[S-Car-Go]

Basic is 50-65k for most operators. However it's a 4 day week, Sundays are not included but paid at time and half, plus working the odd rest day, sone drivers do approach 100k. But they're eroding their work/life balance I suppose. Depends on their priorities.

 

[martin2345uk]

4 pages and it hasn't descended into a slanging match! This is very impressive!

 

[Stigy]

Basic is 50-65k for most operators. However it's a 4 day week, Sundays are not included but paid at time and half, plus working the odd rest day, sone drivers do approach 100k. But they're eroding their work/life balance I suppose. Depends on their priorities.

I worked out that to earn £100k, on a £60k salary where I work, we’d have to work every single rest day and Sunday. It would be around £110k mind. Not possible, but still £110k

Train driver 40 -100k

If you’re factoring in unrealistic overtime, be fair and update them all.

Bus Driver - £25k to £50k etc etc….

 

[43066]

The level of train drivers' pay has little to do with the (numerous) challenges of the job, and everything to do with the basics of economics - supply and demand.

There is a continuous and relatively high demand for drivers, as train operators simply can't run any sort of service without them, and people continuously retire and move to other roles or companies. Crucially, there is also competition between train operators for qualified drivers, so operators would haemorrage drivers if they didn't pay competitively with other operators.

On the other side of the equation, it takes a long time to train drivers, and it's not possible to obtain or maintain the necessary competence unless you actually work for a train operator, so people can't just pay for their own training (as happens in the airline industry). Therefore, even though hundreds or thousands of people apply for each role, the supply is low.

High demand and low supply - together with unions ensuring that train drivers act in unison rather than as individuals - quite foreseeably results in high pay.

So it's not really a question of train drivers being "overpaid"; they are simply paid the market rate. And other roles have a lower market rate because the circumstances are different.

You might not agree with it morally, but this is simply a manifestation of capitalism in action!

I think this sums things up very well.

The fact that train drivers are better paid is clearly due to the leadership shown by their union and the support given by their members.

Partly that, although those same unions were there when the role was much lower paid. It’s also about the factors described above, also about sale of Ts and Cs, and the fact that a lot more is required in terms of professionalism than under BR (certainly according to many ex BR men).

Also historically the pay was a basic plus various allowances. Over time the allowances have been baked into the basic salary, so comparing the basic from years ago with today doesn’t tell the full picture.

 

[Llanigraham]

Signallers are definitely overpaid. Stare at TV screens all day and drink tea

Cough, cough!!
Some of them still pull levers, I'll have you know.

 

[Seejwalker]

multitask

You’re pulling my leg mate, I speak to drivers every day, I’ve never known one to multitask hahah

 

[DMckduck]

If I was ever craving attention and wanted to catch a load of bites I’d come straight on here and ask the same question yet to decide if this is a train driver asking this for a laugh or someone on a windup

 

[Tube driver]

How many bus drivers are employed having never been in a bus ‘cab’ before, don’t hold a driving licence and where every button, switch and control has to be explained and trained on?

Fact is is that you have to already hold a driving licence (for two years I think) and be already familiar with the Highway Code and so on. You are building on existing knowledge and experience and will feel pretty comfortable in a bus cab from day one.

Now step in a train cab having never been in one before and see got you get on. Training can be long and taxing and not everyone makes it. The selection process is very thorough and strict and most don’t get past this first hurdle. The potential pool of potential employees is quite small so it becomes a supply side issue. There may be hundreds lining up wanting to take our jobs for a lot less money but most will be unsuitable.

Why the comparison is always made between bus and train drivers is a mystery. Aside from carrying passengers and having wheels, the jobs are different with their own stresses and difficulties.

 

[Simotrfc]

Discussing with a colleague this morning who said it was a travesty that train drivers are paid over twice what bus drivers are paid -bus drivers have to manoevre their vehicle in conflicting traffic whereas train drivers just have to know when and how to start and stop. I couldn't contradict her - is a loco cab and more complicated that a bus cab these days? Is it just comparative union strength which is responsible?

Jesus Christ.

 

[Seejwalker]

Everyone please stop justifying yourself. There’s no requirement too.
Those who complain about the pay are always more than welcome to apply.

 

[Sawasdee]

We do it at 125 In the fog , almost with our eyes shut. You just put it on automatic route setting and it doesn't even need you.

You need them because you cannot do anything without their permission. They make the decisions and then you follow their instructions.

 

[notadriver]

In this publication by the ORR

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2022-10/review-of-rail-industry-employment-costs-06-10-2022_1.pdf

a review of rail industry costs, on page 39 they compare train drivers with other jobs using a IDR job level :


Bus and coach drivers are assigned a 3 where as train drivers range from an upper 4 for a trainee train driver to a lower 6 for ‘intercity drivers’.

Noticeably Bus and Lorry drivers are given the same IDR rating of 3. Is this fair ? Does this finally explain to those wondering why train driver pay is higher than a bus driver?

 

[Economist]

It'd be interesting as to why they rate an experienced intercity driver as having a more difficult time than a first-year driver on a DOO suburban stopper. As someone who is poised to make the jump to intercity work, I know the speed-squared law and concentration might be a couple of factors but the rest have eluded me.

They haven't mentioned anything about DIs from what I can see either.

 

[12LDA28C]

Basic is 50-65k for most operators. However it's a 4 day week, Sundays are not included but paid at time and half, plus working the odd rest day, sone drivers do approach 100k. But they're eroding their work/life balance I suppose. Depends on their priorities.

Misleading sweeping generalisations here. Not all TOCs or FOCs are on a 4-day week and many companies have Sundays as part of the working week, others have different enhancements for Sundays and Rest Days worked and others have no RDW agreement at all which limits the amount a driver can earn.

 

[ComUtoR]

Ah, but we have to multitask whilst drinking our tea.

Tut tut.. Have you not seen/read/heard the latest advice about "multi-tasking" ?

 

[Seejwalker]

I worked out that to earn £100k, on a £60k salary where I work, we’d have to work every single rest day and Sunday. It would be around £110k mind. Not possible, but still £110k

This is me on a £43k signallers salary.

 

[Horizon22]

I work on a chemical manufacturing site and the operators here are paid similar wage to train drivers (when you include their shift work for unsociable hours which is included in driver wages). Most of the time they come to work, walk around and check a few numbers are reading correctly, maybe make some adjustments and then go sit in a room full of alarms and lights and watch TV. On nights (some) even manage to get a good few hours sleep (not allowed but it happens).

Nobody questions if they are overpaid because it has taken them years to learn each plant area they operate and if there is a problem they deal with it efficiently because they are well trained. The laboratory staff on chemical sites are paid much less even though they have degree qualifications because their job can be picked up with a few weeks of training as long as you have previous lab experience. The main thing here is if the plant operators do not know how to do their job, it could result in injuries or even death to hundreds of people including the general public. The drain driver scenario is exactly the same I would think. That's why they get paid what they do.

One big part is not that you are paid for the every day - although important obviously - it’s that you are paid for those occasions when things go wrong. Big reason why high grade signallers, some control roles and drivers are as well paid as they are.

 

[whoosh]

It'd be interesting as to why they rate an experienced intercity driver as having a more difficult time than a first-year driver on a DOO suburban stopper. As someone who is poised to make the jump to intercity work, I know the speed-squared law and concentration might be a couple of factors but the rest have eluded me.

They haven't mentioned anything about DIs from what I can see either.

Having done both Intercity (first), and then DOO Suburban (second - quite unusally), DOO Suburban is riddled with far more risk of making a mistake, and a greater risk of being overloaded in certain circumstances.


The report says that "Saturdays are often part of the working week."
Often???
Always do they mean?

Nothing like a report from a know it all.