train driving

[rick2678]

Hi, dont know if this sounds daft but i would of thought in this day and age there would be somewhere else apart from TOC s where you could learn and qualify to drive a train. i mean like a paid course somewhere especially wheres theres money to be made by a company doing this?

 

[Flying_Turtle]

Well, in Portugal and Spain you can unfortunately do that!

 

[LETHLFH]

I don't think this would be feasible in the uk due to the 200 driving hours you have to do. The expense of leasing sets, paying for track access, paying for driver instructors and many more things I haven't even thought of.

 

[HLE]

So having gained the 'licence' what would your plan then be?

 

[signallerscot]

This is the route the vast majority of airlines have gone down and I suspect the railway will start to move towards this model in the future. There are scores of gullible young people queuing up outside the airline offices and floating in 'talent pools' with their parent's money burning a hole in their pockets fighting for the priviledge of paying hundreds of thousands for a job with long hours and crap terms and conditions. They have to pay for their own medical, training, accomodation, exam fees, uniform, security clearance etc.. etc.. yet still they sign up. Once the railway companies realise there are also hundreds of idiots out there who'd gladly pay to become a train driver they'll start to go that way too and the whole industry will suffer for it.

 

[ComUtoR]

This is the route the vast majority of airlines have gone down and I suspect the railway will start to move towards this model in the future.

It has already started.

 

[rick2678]

So having gained the 'licence' what would your plan then be?

obviously apply for qualified train driver positions when they come up.

 

[E&W Lucas]

obviously apply for qualified train driver positions when they come up.

But you would have no experience of driving (solo). Realistically, you would still need 4-6 months of training to become productive, and you would require the full two years post qualification process, which is a big chunk of management time.
Be thankful that the Unions are preventing the industry going down the route that you suggest; believe me, if it were to do so, the many other attractions of the job would be long gone, by the time you'd mortgaged yourself up to the hilt to secure it.

 

[LETHLFH]

I wonder if anybody on these forums is in a position to say by the end of year one, how much has a toc put into a trainee. E.g wages for trainee, wages for classroom trainer, wages for driver instructor, facilities, the actual recruitment process including HR and management time. You could be looking between £50,000 - £100,000. Not many could stump that up to pay for their own training.

 

[IKB]

This is the route the vast majority of airlines have gone down and I suspect the railway will start to move towards this model in the future. There are scores of gullible young people queuing up outside the airline offices and floating in 'talent pools' with their parent's money burning a hole in their pockets fighting for the priviledge of paying hundreds of thousands for a job with long hours and crap terms and conditions. They have to pay for their own medical, training, accomodation, exam fees, uniform, security clearance etc.. etc.. yet still they sign up. Once the railway companies realise there are also hundreds of idiots out there who'd gladly pay to become a train driver they'll start to go that way too and the whole industry will suffer for it.

I understand the recruitment model you are describing and, whilst I do not necessarily agree with it, I think 'gullible young people' and 'idiots' is a little strong. Every young person has aspirations, I can't criticise them for that. But the airline model only serves to reenforce elitism. Not all young people can rely on the bank of mum and dad to stump up the initial cash (hence lots of pilots with double barrelled surnames...joke). Lots of other negatives should the rail industry go down this route.

 

[coxxy]

I was once told the figure stands at 80k+.. Im sure 1 of the freight companies asked for a repayment if you left within X years of being trained...

Agree with you all... No point in being trained before you have a job.. there is no way to keep your compentence meaning the X amount that someone has paid to be trained means nothing what so ever if you cant keep getting your hours and keeping your rules, traction and route competence up. Something that would be impossible without working in a roster designed for them exact purposed.

 

[MisterT]

We already have that in the Netherlands. Anyone can learn to be a fully qualified train driver at the ROC of Amsterdam, respectively the Scheepvaart and Transport College in Rotterdam, or the ROC of Twente in Almelo, but only when you pass the required medical and psychological tests, like all trainee train drivers.
This course includes practice hours at TOCs like NS, DB Cargo, Ruhrtalbahn Cargo, Arriva and others.
When you pass the earlier mentioned tests, it'll take two years to become a fully qualified train driver.
For TOCs, it's a great cost-effective way to get train drivers as the costs are only a fraction of the costs for an internal study, and they can pick the best drivers from the group. During the internships (for driving practice) at the different TOCs, you can show them what you have to offer.

 

[Bromley boy]

But you would have no experience of driving (solo). Realistically, you would still need 4-6 months of training to become productive, and you would require the full two years post qualification process, which is a big chunk of management time.
Be thankful that the Unions are preventing the industry going down the route that you suggest; believe me, if it were to do so, the many other attractions of the job would be long gone, by the time you'd mortgaged yourself up to the hilt to secure it.

Yep. The airline model of recruitment has ruined a good many people. A mate of mine has spent £70k plus of his parents' money to go from zero - frozen ATPL. Two and a half years on, not a sniff of a flying job, and he's back in his previous career.

The good thing about the train driving model is that there is very limited risk. If you pass the selection/interviews, there will be a job waiting for you, so long as you pass the training course. You will also be paid whilst training, as opposed to having to pay for it yourself.

 

[387star]

Yep. The airline model of recruitment has ruined a good many people. A mate of mine has spent £70k plus of his parents' money to go from zero - frozen ATPL. Two and a half years on, not a sniff of a flying job, and he's back in his previous career.

The good thing about the train driving model is that there is very limited risk. If you pass the selection/interviews, there will be a job waiting for you, so long as you pass the training course. You will also be paid whilst training, as opposed to having to pay for it yourself.

Not to say the rewards on the airlind industry aren't immense although it sounds complicated work

I house share with a pilot who at 23/4 already earns 40k and will soon earn 75k this of course increasing to 100k plus if he becomes a captain and that's just on easyjet!

He trained with a cadet scheme in france so was lucky I guess

 

[Andy-mc]

With the new European Driving licences coming in I wouldn't be surprised if you could train in Europe and get a job on our railways which would make sense if they are having European standard, probably just need a 100 hours or so conversion to any signalling systems not used abroad (Brexit pending)

I did hear about a company that was going to act almost like an agency where people learn to drive out of their own pocket then once qualified will be hired out to companies who have a shortfall in drivers, not sure it will get very far though

 

[Economist]

The airline programmes are as follows:

Aer Lingus: Training and living expenses paid for.
West Atlantic: Post-PPL training and living expenses paid for.
BA: £84k plus expenses (airline guarantees loan up to £100k).
Virgin Atlantic: £109k plus expenses (airline guarantees loan up to £120k).
Easyjet: £109k plus expenses (airline guarantees some loans - vague).
BA Cityflyer: £84k plus expenses (no loan guarantee offered).
Cityjet: Over 100k Euro plus expenses (no loan guarantee offered).
Flybe: Over £80k plus expenses (no loan guarantee offered).
Wiz Air: Over 100k Euros plus expenses (no loan guarantee offered).
AIS Airlines/Eastern: Over 130k Euros plus expenses (part guarantee).

Volotea, Monarch and Thomas Cook have run similar programmes in the past. Ryanair, Jet2 and Loganair don't have their own cadet programmes, they recruit direct from qualified applicants.

Many of the above cadet schemes require an "assessment fee", often about £250 once an application reaches a certain stage.

Out of the above I'd say Aer Lingus is definitely worth a go, no assessment fee earlier this year since all selection was done in-house (as opposed to being done by a training provider).

I just hope ASLEF remains strong and doesn't become like BALPA. For me, it was a no-brainer to pick the train driving world instead, currently sitting on a conditional offer with a provisional start date of next year.

 

[Bromley boy]

Not to say the rewards on the airlind industry aren't immense although it sounds complicated work

I house share with a pilot who at 23/4 already earns 40k and will soon earn 75k this of course increasing to 100k plus if he becomes a captain and that's just on easyjet!

He trained with a cadet scheme in france so was lucky I guess

The rewards are certainly there, for some!

Another mate of mine is a UK based 757 FO, earning circa. £80k per year. He loves his job and lives for it (and what a great job!).

He spent circa £100k with Oxford aviation academy for his fATPL and then £30k to Ryanair for a 737 type rating, with no guarantees of a job throughout. He spent his early 20s living hand to mouth in various Eastern European hell-holes. He even has stories about swealtering on the tarmac on RYR 737s in Southern Europe because the captains were pressured to save fuel by not running the APU!

He freely admits it's a great job, but one that comes at an enormous price and with rapidly declining terms and conditions. A race to the bottom, and a good example of what can happen to a job without a strong union.

 

[Dave1987]

Yep. The airline model of recruitment has ruined a good many people. A mate of mine has spent £70k plus of his parents' money to go from zero - frozen ATPL. Two and a half years on, not a sniff of a flying job, and he's back in his previous career.

The good thing about the train driving model is that there is very limited risk. If you pass the selection/interviews, there will be a job waiting for you, so long as you pass the training course. You will also be paid whilst training, as opposed to having to pay for it yourself.

The airlines are very fond of the MPL now, where you pay for you basic CPL and then pay to get type rated on the Airbus A320 family. You are then locked into being able to just fly that aircraft type rating. You can eventually upgrade to a frozen ATPL and then to an unfrozen ATPL but that takes a very long time and by then they have had a fair few years out of you so don't care if you leave. Trouble is there are loads and loads of young men and women readily happy to put their parents house on a loan to get into the flight deck of a commercial airliner. I hope we never get to that stage on the railways.

 

[sw1ller]

That's what this ERTMS is for essentially. I'm "lucky enough" to use the wonderful system (level 0, not 2) I've been told by colleagues that it's a long way off though and they all think it's awful.

I'm in training now, just passed 200 hours so 65 more before the test week. I can't see it being feesable to do training when you haven't got a job. A large chunk of it is route knowledge and if you train somewhere else then it's pointless.

 

[Dave1987]

Not to say the rewards on the airlind industry aren't immense although it sounds complicated work

I house share with a pilot who at 23/4 already earns 40k and will soon earn 75k this of course increasing to 100k plus if he becomes a captain and that's just on easyjet!

He trained with a cadet scheme in france so was lucky I guess

The Captian part is a big if. Getting selected to be a Captain isn't easy. The big big money is on the long haul side. You can earn well over £100k as a long haul Captain, but getting onto long haul and to then get to Captain is very very competitive and only the best get that far.

 

[Bromley boy]

With the new European Driving licences coming in I wouldn't be surprised if you could train in Europe and get a job on our railways which would make sense if they are having European standard, probably just need a 100 hours or so conversion to any signalling systems not used abroad (Brexit pending)

I did hear about a company that was going to act almost like an agency where people learn to drive out of their own pocket then once qualified will be hired out to companies who have a shortfall in drivers, not sure it will get very far though

I'm not so sure about that. You'd still need:
- U.K. Rules;
- traction;
- route knowledge.

Each of which forms the current training for an "off the street" train driver in the UK.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The airlines are very fond of the MPL now, where you pay for you basic CPL and then pay to get type rated on the Airbus A320 family. You are then locked into being able to just fly that aircraft type rating. You can eventually upgrade to a frozen ATPL and then to an unfrozen ATPL but that takes a very long time and by then they have had a fair few years out of you so don't care if you leave. Trouble is there are loads and loads of young men and women readily happy to put their parents house on a loan to get into the flight deck of a commercial airliner. I hope we never get to that stage on the railways.

Very true! As I understand it, MPL is meaningless until you reach 1500 hours and unfreeze the fATPL.. before that you don't even have PPL privileges and couldn't even go up with a mate in a C172! Good luck with that if the airline/training school goes bust when you're £100k deep at 600 hours.

 

[Dave1987]

Very true! As I understand it, MPL is meaningless until you reach 1500 hours and unfreeze the fATPL.. before that you don't even have PPL privileges and couldn't even go up with a mate in a C172! Good luck with that if the airline/training school goes bust when you're £100k deep at 600 hours.

Indeed I know a guy who has his MPL through a budget airlines "academy" run by CTC aviation. He is only type rated on the Airbus A319/320/321 and can't fly anything else for a considerable time to come. Also has a very hefty loan to pay off. I mean don't get me wrong if all goes well for him he could get his ATPL in the future and end up at one of the big carriers flying around the globe on circa £100k but at the moment it's the hard grind in budget airline mode saving money wherever they can. I would hate to see the railways head down the same road as the airlines. But like I said before there is no shortage of young people desperate to get onto the flight deck and willing to do anything to get their. But the railway model is very very successful and don't see it changing soon.

 

[WCMLaddict]

We already have that in the Netherlands. Anyone can learn to be a fully qualified train driver at the ROC of Amsterdam, respectively the Scheepvaart and Transport College in Rotterdam, or the ROC of Twente in Almelo, but only when you pass the required medical and psychological tests, like all trainee train drivers.
This course includes practice hours at TOCs like NS, DB Cargo, Ruhrtalbahn Cargo, Arriva and others.
When you pass the earlier mentioned tests, it'll take two years to become a fully qualified train driver.
For TOCs, it's a great cost-effective way to get train drivers as the costs are only a fraction of the costs for an internal study, and they can pick the best drivers from the group. During the internships (for driving practice) at the different TOCs, you can show them what you have to offer.

As I understand, that's how it's done in number of other European countries, Sweden to name another.

 

[ungreat]

I did hear about a company that was going to act almost like an agency where people learn to drive out of their own pocket then once qualified will be hired out to companies who have a shortfall in drivers, not sure it will get very far though

That most certainly won't happen for a good while,if at all, here....how would said agency drivers keep up traction/route knowledge?

 

[highdyke]

Quite a bit of training for the signalling and driving grades these days is classroom and simulator training. I'm actually very surprised this has never been put out to third party trainers to get you as far as qualified signaller and driver status for a sum of cash, that could be paid for by grants, sponsorship, loans.

On the signalling side you normally get 7 weeks rule book training (all of which is done in a classroom) followed by quite a bit of simulator stuff. An upgraded Simsig which allows the trainer to set up various scenarios, as well as familiarisation with various workstations. BR used to use simulators of NX panels and IECC workstations over 25 years ago.

The route learning could be reduced to a software package showing 3d and 2d positions of speed limits and signals, and how they work, as well as other significant features and section appendix details.

You would still need a certain amount of on the job training, but much reduced.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wonder if anybody on these forums is in a position to say by the end of year one, how much has a toc put into a trainee. E.g wages for trainee, wages for classroom trainer, wages for driver instructor, facilities, the actual recruitment process including HR and management time. You could be looking between £50,000 - £100,000. Not many could stump that up to pay for their own training.

Well that's what a decent university education will cost you nowadays..

 

[Johncleesefan]

What a scary thought to think the driver of your train may never have actually driven before and done it all on sum. How nervous would he be. I was nad enough on day one solo just coz i had no one holding my hand.