Train faults that can cancel a service but still allow affected rolling stock to move

[Halish Railway]

Don't suppose you were in Coach F?

I was actually. One past experience I’ve had on a CrossCountry HST was when I was sat in one of the seats immediately next to the guard’s van and I could overhear the guard bemoaning the various issues the train had, chief amongst which the very weak air conditioning (which I have experienced multiple times on CrossCountry HSTs), as well as the temperamental doors separating the vestibule and passenger saloon.

Another thing I’ve experienced a few times a few times is broken lighting - I’ve been in the middle carriage of a three car 158 heading from Manchester Victoria to Bradford Interchange, a route with several miles of tunnels, as well as the entirety of a Class 333 on the Wharfedale line which made for a fun visit to the lavatories…

On the topic of air conditioning, how hot does the passenger saloon have to get to be declared unusable?

 

[The exile]

Presumably with locomotive hauled coaching stock an Electric Train Supply failure would allow the train to run but only as empty stock due to the absence of (anything other than emergency) lighting. Or at least, the permitted distance would be very limited.

I remember being turfed off a train at Bristol on the grounds that we couldn’t travel on it through the Severn Tunnel with no lighting. This presumably had something to do with the length of the period of darkness as passage of the tunnels between Bath and Bristol had been ok - or maybe a different interpretation by new crew.

 

[Falcon1200]

On the topic of air conditioning, how hot does the passenger saloon have to get to be declared unusable?

A good question; Back around 2000, in the last days of Virgin Cross Country loco-hauled trains, my family and I travelled one summer Sunday from Glasgow Central to Oxford. The train was already a coach short (ie 6 vice 7) so at Central only passengers with seat reservations were being allowed on. The the aircon failed in the coach we were in and it rapidly became absolutely roasting. The Traincrew did what they could, handing out bottles of water, but my then 5-year old son got so hot that he stripped down to his underpants! I was hot too but did not feel able to do the same.....

 

[louis97]

I was actually.

Ah, XC05 is still without PA in Coach F then, its only been like it since April/May last year. When I did XC05 on Wednesday I was in Coach G, so didn't get a chance to see.

 

[D365]

I was on the 1218 MAN-DON which was turned back at HAZ. The driver advised this was due to an engine fault but platform staff at MAN were suggesting that the driver was struggling to get interlock. If the latter is true, I’m surprised that the train was able to run back to MAN with all passengers onboard. I suppose this would have been justified by the lack of scheduled trains at HAZ today.

 

[12LDA28C]

Presumably with locomotive hauled coaching stock an Electric Train Supply failure would allow the train to run but only as empty stock due to the absence of (anything other than emergency) lighting. Or at least, the permitted distance would be very limited.

That certainly never used to be the case up until at least the early 2000s when various no-heat locos were frequently used to haul passenger trains. Many's the time I've travelled on stock with no heat in the winter or air-con in the summer and often with no lights, which I found quite pleasant after dark.

 

[skyhigh]

If the latter is true, I’m surprised that the train was able to run back to MAN with all passengers onboard.

No reason you can't keep passengers on until the first suitable location when the Traction Interlock switch has been isolated. From what I've read the train was full and standing- dumping the passengers at Hazel Grove until the replacement set arrived could have been carnage.

 

[D365]

No reason you can't keep passengers on until the first suitable location when the Traction Interlock switch has been isolated. From what I've read the train was full and standing- dumping the passengers at Hazel Grove until the replacement set arrived could have been carnage.

Indeed it was. We were turfed off at HAZ briefly before it was decided to send us back to MAN.

As it happens, I've just seen the dedicated thread for this incident.

 

[The exile]

That certainly never used to be the case up until at least the early 2000s when various no-heat locos were frequently used to haul passenger trains. Many's the time I've travelled on stock with no heat in the winter or air-con in the summer and often with no lights, which I found quite pleasant after

Was lighting not from batteries recharged by dynamo on each coach?

 

[Urban Gateline]

DOO (driver only operation) monitors defective. Yup, there's me, my train, and my second man, but we can't offer you a service because my second man who used to dispatch the exact same trains on the exact same route as a conductor is no longer allowed to do this because his job title has been changed to On Board Supervisor.

How about if your train in this scenario had a conductor covering OBS duties, can they manually dispatch 377's as they would with 313's?

 

[Halish Railway]

Ah, XC05 is still without PA in Coach F then, its only been like it since April/May last year. When I did XC05 on Wednesday I was in Coach G, so didn't get a chance to see.

More worryingly that’s the standard class carriage with the large accessible toilet and space for wheelchairs, the passengers that would really need detailed instructions of what to do in an emergency due to their mobility issues. That does seem like a fault that should withdraw that carriage until the PA is fixed.

 

[170UTD]

I've had it where a 156 lost communication between the two cabs so the driver and guard couldn't communicate. It's inbound journey from Lincoln was fine, but it ran Peterborough to Lincoln ECS (where it was presumably fixed).

 

[12LDA28C]

Was lighting not from batteries recharged by dynamo on each coach?

You're assuming that batteries are always in tip-top condition and can hold a charge....

Even on more modern DMUs you'll often find as soon as the engines are shut down the interior lights go out because the batteries are shot.

 

[voyagerdude220]

A few weeks ago a Pendolino working 08:51 Edinburgh to London via Birmingham (vice booked 2x221) terminated at Carlisle because of a communication fault on the train.

I've also seen reports of Avanti 2x221 being delayed whilst the rear set was locked out of use because there was no communication working between the two trains.

 

[GC class B1]

Was lighting not from batteries recharged by dynamo on each coach?

Batteries on air conditioned LHCS were charged by the Motor/Alternator set which was powered from the ETS. These coaches did not have axle driven alternators.

 

[dk1]

Batteries on air conditioned LHCS were charged by the Motor/Alternator set which was powered from the ETS. These coaches did not have axle driven alternators.

Very problematic on mk2 stock. Boiling & stinking like rotten eggs.

 

[APT618S]

What are the rules with regard to the external orange lights not-working, the ones which indicate an open door ?
Was on a train last year where they were not working and expected the train to be cancelled but it ran in service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What are the rules with regard to the external orange lights not-working, the ones which indicate an open door ?
Was on a train last year where they were not working and expected the train to be cancelled but it ran in service.

I'm not sure about the lights, but loss of door-brake interlock is certainly one thing I've been tipped off a train for (with it returning to the depot). If it's only one door, within constraints of not having a vehicle with them all locked on one side it can stay in service, but if it fails completely I believe it has to come out.

 

[dk1]

What are the rules with regard to the external orange lights not-working, the ones which indicate an open door ?
Was on a train last year where they were not working and expected the train to be cancelled but it ran in service.

On some second generation multiple units it also meant that there was a TCA fault rather than doors.

 

[APT618S]

On some second generation multiple units it also meant that there was a TCA fault rather than doors.

It was a 2-car 156. Both lights off when I boarded at the start of the route and still off when I got off after several stops. Cannot remember if it was the same side.

 

[dk1]

It was a 2-car 156. Both lights off when I boarded at the start of the route and still off when I got off after several stops. Cannot remember if it was the same side.

Sorry, I misread that as they where on whilst moving. Could it be that the driver hadn’t put his key in at the start when you boarded & had taken it out at the destination by the time you got off?

 

[APT618S]

Sorry, I misread that as they where on whilst moving. Could it be that the driver hadn’t put his key in at the start when you boarded & had taken it out at the destination by the time you got off?

I suppose it is a possibility, I cannot remember how early/late I boarded/alighted but in all the decades since they were introduced this was the first time I have noticed them not working.

 

[dk1]

I suppose it is a possibility, I cannot remember how early/late I boarded/alighted but in all the decades since they were introduced this was the first time I have noticed them not working.

Yes on several units they extinguish if the driver does not have a key in from what i remember when signing 150/153/156 units until 2019.

 

[12LDA28C]

What are the rules with regard to the external orange lights not-working, the ones which indicate an open door ?
Was on a train last year where they were not working and expected the train to be cancelled but it ran in service.

That sounds most unusual. Were the doors guard-operated or was it DOO? Presumably the driver had an in-cab indication that interlock had been lost when the doors were released however the cantrail lights indicate a lot more than just interlock being lost on that vehicle. I would be fairly sure that cantrail lights not illuminating would certainly be enough to remove a train from passenger service.

 

[D6130]

I would be fairly sure that cantrail lights not illuminating would certainly be enough to remove a train from passenger service.

The illumination of a single cantrail hazard light on many modern units indicates that a circuit breaker has tripped - or a passcom has been operated - in that vehicle.

 

[12LDA28C]

The illumination of a single cantrail hazard light on many modern units indicates that a circuit breaker has tripped - or a passcom has been operated - in that vehicle.

It can indicate rather more than that - for example which vehicle's fire system has been activated when the firebell has gone off in the driver's cab. Fairly important to know which vehicle is on fire (if it's not immediately obvious from billowing smoke and flames).

Can you imagine what would happen if a passcom had been pulled on a DOO train due to a medical emergency and the driver couldn't see which vehicle was affected as the cantrail lights weren't working?

 

[43096]

It can indicate rather more than that - for example which vehicle's fire system has been activated when the firebell has gone off in the driver's cab. Fairly important to know which vehicle is on fire (if it's not immediately obvious from billowing smoke and flames).

Can you imagine what would happen if a passcom had been pulled on a DOO train due to a medical emergency and the driver couldn't see which vehicle was affected as the cantrail lights weren't working?

On a modern unit I’d expect the TMS to tell the driver exactly which PASSCOM in which vehicle had been pulled.

 

[ComUtoR]

Can you imagine what would happen if a passcom had been pulled on a DOO train due to a medical emergency and the driver couldn't see which vehicle was affected as the cantrail lights weren't working?

Does a Driver need to be informed which coach a passcom has been operated ?

 

[APT618S]

That sounds most unusual. Were the doors guard-operated or was it DOO?

Guard Operated class 156.

 

[D6130]

On a modern unit I’d expect the TMS to tell the driver exactly which PASSCOM in which vehicle had been pulled.

Yes....you're right. I was thinking of 142s, 144s, 153s, 156s and 158s as modern units....which they were when I was driving them!