Train faults that can cancel a service but still allow affected rolling stock to move

[brad465]

Earlier today the 12:10 from Victoria - Dover Priory was cancelled due to a train fault, but the affected 375 carriages ran empty all the way back to Ramsgate Depot (where presumably the fault will be better fixed). Going by this whatever the fault was (RTT says onboard safety systems) it didn't stop the affected units travelling that far unassisted, so thought I'd ask if there are any disclosable faults that can occur in this manner to passenger services in general? Below are the RTT diagrams for the cancelled service and the resultant ECS move:

Realtime Trains | 5S26 1210 London Victoria to Ramsgate E.M.U.D. | 29/12/2022

Real-time train running information for 5S26 1210 departure from London Victoria to Ramsgate E.M.U.D. on 29/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 1S26 1210 London Victoria to Dover Priory | 29/12/2022

Real-time train running information for 1S26 1210 departure from London Victoria to Dover Priory on 29/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[CC 72100]

The short answer is that there are many.

A classic would be a door fault and being unable to gain interlock.

This problem can be 'solved' by using the Traction Interlock Isolation Switch, but you wouldn't start a passenger journey with the TIS raised (isolated) and if it happened mid-journey, you would be de-training at the next station.

 

[that1pepfan]

This happend to me on a 313 the 313 went ETD, AWS fault it was only one cab so they could take it back to depot

 

[E27007]

Door faults, Driver safety systems such as AWS TPWS DSD , failure of Horn or Headlights, wheelflats, GSMR radio, just to name a few.

 

[that1pepfan]

Door faults, Driver safety systems such as AWS TPWS DSD , failure of Horn or Headlights, wheelflats, GSMR radio, just to name a few.

Guard system not working on one 377 I had

PIS guard door ect

Ran DOO between Brighton and Gatwick then they canned it from there

 

[GC class B1]

Door faults, Driver safety systems such as AWS TPWS DSD , failure of Horn or Headlights, wheelflats, GSMR radio, just to name a few.

I would be surprised that a unit can be run with a defective horn, headlights or GRMR radio unless they were at the trailing end and the unit didn’t need to reverse to get to its destination. Running a unit with wheel flats would depend on how long the flats were.

 

[Sheridan]

I would be surprised that a unit can be run with a defective horn, headlights or GRMR radio unless they were at the trailing end and the unit didn’t need to reverse to get to its destination. Running a unit with wheel flats would depend on how long the flats were.

This poster was replying to a post which asked members to suggest problems which can lead to a passenger service being cancelled but the train still being moved ECS. All of these would fit that criterion in some circumstances.

 

[ComUtoR]

I would be surprised that a unit can be run with a defective horn, headlights or GRMR radio

Surprise !!

There are rules for each of those.

If a unit was defective, it still needs to be moved from point a to point b. Most defects have a rule in place that still allows it to run, even from a leading cab.

 

[mjmason1996]

I was on a Tyne and wear metro once when it was taken out of service because a door wouldn't close. We were all told to get off the train then the door were closed manually and the train driven to the depot.

 

[43066]

Defective PA, anything to do with interlock, anything to do with safety systems (both driver and passenger) generally. The list is long…

 

[DaveTM]

Examples I've had:
PA system failed in middle carriage of 3 car unit. We can't keep passengers in the middle coach becase we can't communicate with them in an emergency. We can't just lock the middle carriage out because if a fire breaks out in an end coach we can't evacuate into the middle coach.

Failure in cab at buffers end of train in terminus station; can't remember what it actually was. If we'd done our scheduled journey we would have had to change direction half way through and the broken cab would have been at the front. Instead I got to take a different route without passengers to dump the unit at a depot.

DOO (driver only operation) monitors defective. Yup, there's me, my train, and my second man, but we can't offer you a service because my second man who used to dispatch the exact same trains on the exact same route as a conductor is no longer allowed to do this because his job title has been changed to On Board Supervisor.

 

[BoroAndy]

DOO (driver only operation) monitors defective. Yup, there's me, my train, and my second man, but we can't offer you a service because my second man who used to dispatch the exact same trains on the exact same route as a conductor is no longer allowed to do this because his job title has been changed to On Board Supervisor.

That just shows how stupid our rail systems are. Operational management need to be more pragmatic and not allow rubbish like this to stop a train service.
IMO, a service should always run unless there is a Very good reason why not, after a quick risk assessment by management.

 

[gabrielhj07]

PA system failed in middle carriage of 3 car unit. We can't keep passengers in the middle coach becase we can't communicate with them in an emergency.

Well then, by that token the 222s should be withdrawn immediately!

 

[DaveTM]

That just shows how stupid our rail systems are. Operational management need to be more pragmatic and not allow rubbish like this to stop a train service.
IMO, a service should always run unless there is a Very good reason why not, after a quick risk assessment by management.

There are two dangerous words in "...quick risk assessment by management", "quick" and "management".

"Quick"
No considered risk assessment is quick. You need to have documented how and why a decision was made, who was party to that decision, and why they are considered competent to make or influence that decision.

"Management"...
The management grades do not have safety as their prime motivation. They will always want to say "yes" and will not be looking for reasons why "yes" is a bad idea. They are also not operational staff so will not be aware of the particular risks that need to be mitigated against at each location.

 

[ComUtoR]

That just shows how stupid our rail systems are. Operational management need to be more pragmatic and not allow rubbish like this to stop a train service.
IMO, a service should always run unless there is a Very good reason why not, after a quick risk assessment by management.

If I accept your premise for a brief second. How would you dispatch along the route ? Taking into account, time, safety, correct process, rule book, signal sighting, platform curvature, etc. etc ?

 

[43066]

That just shows how stupid our rail systems are. Operational management need to be more pragmatic and not allow rubbish like this to stop a train service.
IMO, a service should always run unless there is a Very good reason why not, after a quick risk assessment by management.

Will “management” be the ones who end up in a courtroom dock when someone gets trapped and dragged? I think not.

That’s your “very good reason why not”, right there…

 

[Falcon1200]

The management grades do not have safety as their prime motivation.

Exactly who are you referring to by the term 'management grades'? There are many operational staff in management grades, of which I was one for the last few years of my railway career and I can assure you that safety was very much my prime motivation.

 

[dk1]

From memory a defective horn is 20mph, defective headlight 20mph (unless emergency lamp provided then 75mph) & defective GSMR train can run up to 70 miles but shout be taken out of traffic at the earliest opportunity.

Obviously however, with any of these faults a train will NOT be allowed to leave a maintenance depot to enter traffic.

 

[newtownmgr]

I would be surprised that a unit can be run with a defective horn, headlights or GRMR radio unless they were at the trailing end and the unit didn’t need to reverse to get to its destination. Running a unit with wheel flats would depend on how long the flats were.

Can run at reduced speed to a suitable location to clear the running line. If not you would have units stranded everywhere & the service severely disrupted. As regards flats, again it would depend on the severity as to how far & what speed it would be able to run at. Have had to retrieve a few 153’s in the past after the end of service,when they’ve been dumped in sidings & run at reduced speed back to a depot to be assessed fully.

 

[Class800]

Defective PA, anything to do with interlock, anything to do with safety systems (both driver and passenger) generally. The list is long…

I would say the number of trains I've been on that don't have defective PA system is low, maybe 10%? It's so rare to be able to hear the announcements. Except the auto announcer

 

[E27007]

There are two dangerous words in "...quick risk assessment by management", "quick" and "management".

"Quick"
No considered risk assessment is quick. You need to have documented how and why a decision was made, who was party to that decision, and why they are considered competent to make or influence that decision.

"Management"...
The management grades do not have safety as their prime motivation. They will always want to say "yes" and will not be looking for reasons why "yes" is a bad idea. They are also not operational staff so will not be aware of the particular risks that need to be mitigated against at each location.

Risk assessment should only be applied when there are no rules in the rulebook to apply to the situation, a risk assessment must first begin with reference to the rulebook and the content of rulebook cannot be over-ridden. Over the years the rulebook has evolved to cover very many situations for fault and failure when a train is in service and at depot, there cannot be many omitted or unforeseen situations where the rulebook is neither robust or silent and requires "risk assesment" , any driver would be very wary of any manager claiming he or she has "risk assessed" a situation to allow a failing train to either enter or continue in normal service, and the signaller would also be very wary too

 

[brad465]

From memory a defective horn is 20mph, defective headlight 20mph (unless emergency lamp provided then 75mph) & defective GSMR train can run up to 70 miles but shout be taken out of traffic at the earliest opportunity.

Obviously however, with any of these faults a train will NOT be allowed to leave a maintenance depot to enter traffic.

Presumably the aim here would be to get them to the nearest depot/siding that repairs can take place, which is not necessarily the primary base depot. For example, if the OP example had a defective horn or headlight, running all the way to Ramsgate at 20mph would be very obstructive to the wider network.

 

[dk1]

Presumably the aim here would be to get them to the nearest depot/siding that repairs can take place, which is not necessarily the primary base depot. For example, if the OP example had a defective horn or headlight, running all the way to Ramsgate at 20mph would be very obstructive to the wider network.

Oh yes, that wouldn’t happen. The service would continue to the first point it could be terminated &/or put out of the way. It happened a few weeks ago with a XC Stansted-Birmingham that developed a horn fault near Waterbeach. It continued at 20mph to Ely with a procession of GA & GN services in its trail. At Ely it was terminated, shunted into the down loop, then attached to the rear of the following Birmingham bound service burying in the defective cab.

 

[BoroAndy]

If I accept your premise for a brief second. How would you dispatch along the route ? Taking into account, time, safety, correct process, rule book, signal sighting, platform curvature, etc. etc ?

My comment was based upon the actual scenario stated, with the only reason competent staff could not dispatch the train was because a job title had changed, not that persons knowledge and experience.

 

[ComUtoR]

My comment was based upon the actual scenario stated, with the only reason competent staff could not dispatch the train was because a job title had changed, not that persons knowledge and experience.

The job title also removes their competence. Welcome to DOO, have a nice day.

 

[12LDA28C]

My comment was based upon the actual scenario stated, with the only reason competent staff could not dispatch the train was because a job title had changed, not that persons knowledge and experience.

Maybe if the TOC wanted them to retain that knowledge and experience (ie competence) they should have also retained the role of 'conductor', just a thought. You can't have your cake and eat it.

 

[Halish Railway]

A few days ago when taking a 333 from Ilkley to Leeds, the train arrived at Ilkley and either the guard or driver had to push to windscreen wipers at the Ilkley end of the train and couldn’t get them to move correctly, although those at the Leeds end worked perfectly well. The train got to Leeds and it’s next working was cancelled, presumably due to the issue with the windscreen wipers.

Examples I've had:
PA system failed in middle carriage of 3 car unit. We can't keep passengers in the middle coach becase we can't communicate with them in an emergency. We can't just lock the middle carriage out because if a fire breaks out in an end coach we can't evacuate into the middle coach.

I was on a CrossCountry HST today that I’m pretty sure had a broken PA in my carriage - I could here the PA coming from another carriage when we made an unplanned stop at a signal. Bare in mind that the train was already missing a carriage…

I did go on the Pride Pendelino once that had a coach of Standard Premium out of use due to some defective doors that meant that an escape couldn’t be made in an emergency.

 

[Anvil1984]

Well then, by that token the 222s should be withdrawn immediately!

According to rulebook IIRC then only DOO PA defects count towards a failure. At my TOC a defective PA is an “end of day” issue as there’s a guard who can at worst yell down the carriage

 

[louis97]

I was on a CrossCountry HST today that I’m pretty sure had a broken PA in my carriage - I could here the PA coming from another carriage when we made an unplanned stop at a signal. Bare in mind that the train was already missing a carriage…

Don't suppose you were in Coach F?

 

[Bill57p9]

Presumably with locomotive hauled coaching stock an Electric Train Supply failure would allow the train to run but only as empty stock due to the absence of (anything other than emergency) lighting. Or at least, the permitted distance would be very limited.