Train Horns

[theageofthetra]

Has there been an increase in complaints since the rule book change where the horn is now sounded at Whistle boards from 6am-12am instead if 7am-11pm previously?

It was brought in to reduce crossing risks but there are whistle boards which are not related to crossings.

 

[mind the gap]

Are (or used to be?) whistle boards placed before tunnels?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Not generally, in fact I don't know of any now.

 

[AndrewE]

Every time we double the distance from the horn we halve the volume. So it doesn't take much distance to dramatically reduce the volume at the place it is needed.

I suspect that doubling the distance would reduce the volume to a quarter - at most (inverse square law) and if it was in an unobstructed sphere, to an eighth. So given reflection back up from the ground, somewhere between the two!

p.s I remember now that deciBels etc. are logarithmic scales, so maybe the energy reduces to a quarter but the number of dB might halve.

 

[robbeech]

Difference between sound pressure and sound intensity is what we are looking at here. We lose 6dB per doubling of distance. Coupling with the ground is negligable as the frequency range concerned is too high, reflections from the ground are also fairly insignificant due to the positioning and directivity of the sound source. If nothing else they are extremely variable given the different types of surface around the train. Ballast certainly isn't going to reflect anything in a linear manner, and certainly not in a useful way if it did.
In reality we can't improve much beyond 6dB per doubling as we would need a sound source in an infinite (or theoretically close to) line which would be impractical. Even if we could achieve this the concept is much more susceptible to the already unpredictable and widely variable air pressure effects so using this as an advantage could have negative results in practise.

 

[ComUtoR]

Not generally, in fact I don't know of any now.

I know of two, possibly three, if my route knowledge is up to scratch.

Remember the old old rule where we had to blow up at the start of a tunnel. I would say because that rule existed there was no need to place one at the start of a tunnel.

 

[robbeech]

I know of two, possibly three, if my route knowledge is up to scratch.

Remember the old old rule where we had to blow up at the start of a tunnel. I would say because that rule existed there was no need to place one at the start of a tunnel.

OT Alert.

I remember playing a train based computer game in the early 90s and specifically remember having to blow the whistle before entering tunnels. There were no whistle boards so you had to know exactly when to do it or you would not score as high.

 

[ComUtoR]

OT Alert.

Educate me my good fellow or fellow(ess). 'OT Alert ?'

 

[snowball]

Educate me my good fellow or fellow(ess). 'OT Alert ?'

"What I am about to say is Off Topic."

 

[adrock1976]

I seem to remember a recent documentary where before trains started to depart a station, the driver had to blow the horn.

I think the location was in Bombay on the Indian Railways, as I am aware there is an intense frequency level of service there.

 

[Taunton]

In the USA trains give two on the horn before starting.

The US codes are here

http://trn.trains.com/railroads/abcs-of-railroading/2006/05/whistle-signals

 

[WideRanger]

I seem to remember a recent documentary where before trains started to depart a station, the driver had to blow the horn.

I think the location was in Bombay on the Indian Railways, as I am aware there is an intense frequency level of service there.

On Indian trains the horn is blown before starting to let the passengers know. The doors are left open all of the time on commuter trains in Mumbai/Bombay in all but the heaviest monsoons. Without the horn, it would be quite easy to come acropper when trying to board or alight the and trains starts moving without warning.

 

[Deepgreen]

On Indian trains the horn is blown before starting to let the passengers know. The doors are left open all of the time on commuter trains in Mumbai/Bombay in all but the heaviest monsoons. Without the horn, it would be quite easy to come acropper when trying to board or alight the and trains starts moving without warning.

Three blasts means the roof is full!

 

[talltim]

If I fit one on the car will people get out fo the way quicker ?

get one like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8a1n_BlLD8

 

[QueensCurve]

I suspect that doubling the distance would reduce the volume to a quarter - at most (inverse square law) and if it was in an unobstructed sphere, to an eighth. So given reflection back up from the ground, somewhere between the two!.

I was thinking an inverse square law would apply.

 

[RPM]

OT Alert.

I remember playing a train based computer game in the early 90s and specifically remember having to blow the whistle before entering tunnels. There were no whistle boards so you had to know exactly when to do it or you would not score as high.

The requirement to sound the horn when entering and leaving tunnels was removed from the rule book at the same time the whistle board single tone rule came in, and it was done for the same reason - to placate the railway's neighbours.

 

[GW43125]

The requirement to sound the horn when entering and leaving tunnels was removed from the rule book at the same time the whistle board single tone rule came in, and it was done for the same reason - to placate the railway's neighbours.

I was on a 185 a couple of weeks ago and the driver sounded the horn going into every tunnel between Manchester and Huddersfield (there are lots!)
I wouldn't have minded but I was behind him and trying to sleep!

 

[RPM]

I was on a 185 a couple of weeks ago and the driver sounded the horn going into every tunnel between Manchester and Huddersfield (there are lots!)
I wouldn't have minded but I was behind him and trying to sleep!

Lol. An old school driver perhaps.

Of course the rules don't prohibit the use of the horn, it's just not mandatory.

 

[AndrewE]

The requirement to sound the horn when entering and leaving tunnels was removed from the rule book at the same time the whistle board single tone rule came in, and it was done for the same reason - to placate the railway's neighbours.

Once upon a time it was acceptable to be out and about on the track when trains were running, including walking around in tunnels. I believe that horns were sounded entering a tunnel to warn anyone already in there, and at the approach to the exit to warn track men who might be about to step into the path of the train.

Experienced civil engineers and P-way men took novices out on live lines to impress the need for watchfulness on them (and for other reasons!) I was one recipient...

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Lol. An old school driver perhaps.

Of course the rules don't prohibit the use of the horn, it's just not mandatory.

The same applies to passing through a station with another train stopped at or passing by a platform on an immediately adjacent track. Seems like a sensible precaution to me but no longer mandatory.

 

[edwin_m]

The same applies to passing through a station with another train stopped at or passing by a platform on an immediately adjacent track. Seems like a sensible precaution to me but no longer mandatory.

IIRC Red Zone working is now banned in platform roads so this issue may have gone away as well.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

The requirement to sound the horn when entering and leaving tunnels was removed from the rule book at the same time the whistle board single tone rule came in, and it was done for the same reason - to placate the railway's neighbours.

Back in steam days we used to close the window on hearing the whistle entering a tunnel!

 

[KingDaveRa]

Given NR's penchant for closing level crossings, I should've thought that's removed an awful lot of places where a horn is needed.

Now I think of it, NR have very recently closed three level crossings in town. I used to hear the horns distantly as the sound travels well if the wind is the right way. However lately I've not heard any that I can recall.

 

[RPM]

Given NR's penchant for closing level crossings, I should've thought that's removed an awful lot of places where a horn is needed.

Now I think of it, NR have very recently closed three level crossings in town. I used to hear the horns distantly as the sound travels well if the wind is the right way. However lately I've not heard any that I can recall.

Closing those crossings has made Chiltern drivers very happy, but has caused a fair bit of fuss amongst the locals. However, I like to think what they've lost in access, they've gained in reduced noise pollution.

 

[KingDaveRa]

Closing those crossings has made Chiltern drivers very happy, but has caused a fair bit of fuss amongst the locals. However, I like to think what they've lost in access, they've gained in reduced noise pollution.

I think you could be right. The crossing on Griffin Lane closing has been mildly irksome for me, but I can't remember the last time I heard a horn!

 

[clockend]

Maybe a question of volume rather than directionality?

Presumably a train horn needs to be reasonably directional as people way off to the side have no need to know about it. However it needs to be audible half a mile or so ahead of the train so even with limited spilloff to one side plenty of people will hear it.

A fixed horn can be a lot quieter but a lot nearer to the area where the warning is needed, so people at the crossing hear at the same volume as if it was on an approaching train, but it has much less impact on people elsewhere.

NR have introduced horns at foot crossings at three locations in Kent including Whitstable. There's a video floating around Twitter....

 

[Cowley]

Would anyone know where it might be possible to purchase an old set of two tone train horns? A friend of mine asked me the other day.

 

[Nym]

There has been more than one serious incident recently where track workers have been struck by a train not continuing on its direct track but diverging over crossovers etc.

I've always felt that there should be a procedure where a train approaching track staff gives the normal two-tone hoot, but if it is taking a diverting track it gives the two-tone hoot twice, as an extra indication that it is going over a diverging route.

For fear of flaming here, I'd lay the blame of those being hit by trains, that have sounded a warning, on a diverging route is the fault of the Lookout / Protection Master / SPC or whatever NR have assigned the job of protecting workers from trains to now, in addition to the training and briefing of the operatives.

On my track training said protecting operative would sound remote warnings at any diverging route with the horn signalling the line and any divergences by observing either the RJIs or the position of points. Is this not the case at NR any more?

Or am I perhaps one of few who would pull up a protecting operative on not doing their job properly???

 

[Bromley boy]

For fear of flaming here, I'd lay the blame of those being hit by trains, that have sounded a warning, on a diverging route is the fault of the Lookout / Protection Master / SPC or whatever NR have assigned the job of protecting workers from trains to now, in addition to the training and briefing of the operatives.

On my track training said protecting operative would sound remote warnings at any diverging route with the horn signalling the line and any divergences by observing either the RJIs or the position of points. Is this not the case at NR any more?

Or am I perhaps one of few who would pull up a protecting operative on not doing their job properly???

That still seems to be the case, from what I've observed. At low speed it's possible to blow up and then indicate the direction you're going in by pointing.

Personally I err on the side of caution and always blow-up when I see orange vests as, from a driver's perspective, the p-way guys you can see on a diverging line may have colleagues working alongside them, on your line, out of your sight.

P-way are generally well drilled, although some can be a bit lacksidasical in acknowledging. I'd imagine that comes from the familiarity of working on the track day in, day out, and becoming a bit complacent.

On a couple of classes of stock I drive the horn is run straight off the main air reservoir. It's earth-shatteringly loud, to the point it could probably cause hearing damage, as I've observed from the reactions of those on the receiving end, on the occasions when I've blown up when entering a busy platform due to passengers standing too close to the platform edge, cycling on the platform etc.