Train left 8/9 minutes early!

[jon0844]

What happened with FCC tonight? They managed to have two (or three) identical services listed but going from different platforms tonight!

And when I got on the 2047 from King's Cross to Welwyn Garden City, it had ridiculous timings that saw it arriving early at stations and having to wait, and then being booked to arrive at Potters Bat at 2113 and leave at 2122! I was getting off at Potters Bar tonight, and saw the train leave at 2114.

Having now checked, this is what happened:

31/07/2010 2047 London Kings Cross [KGX] to Welwyn Garden City [WGC] 

Location	FD	Scheduled Arrival	Scheduled Departure	Expected Arrival	Expected Departure	Pl	Lateness	DR
      
London Kings Cross [KGX] 	2047	 	No log	6	  
KNGXBEL 	 	Pass	2048	Pass	No log	 	 	 
Finsbury Park [FPK] 	 2051	2053	2052	2053	3	On time	 
Harringay [HGY] 	 	 Pass	2055	Pass	2055	 	On time	 
Hornsey [HRN] 	 	 Pass	2056	Pass	2055	 	-1	 
Alexandra Palace [AAP] 	 Pass	2058	Pass	2055	 	-3	 
New Southgate [NSG] 	 2101	2102	2057	2102	3	On time	 
Oakleigh Park [OKL] 	 2105	2105	2104	2105	3	On time	 
New Barnet [NBA] 	 2107	2107	2106	2107	4	On time	 
Hadley Wood [HDW] 	 2109	2110	2109	2109	4	-1	 
Potters Bar [PBR] 	 	 2113	2122	2113	2113	4	-9	 
Brookmans Park [BPK] 	 2124	2125	2116	2116	4	-9	 
Welham Green [WMG] 	 2126	2127	2118	2119	2	-8	 
Hatfield [HAT] 	 	2130	2130	2122	2122	3	-8	 
Welwyn Garden City [WGC] 2135	 	2126	 	4	-9

So, from Potters Bar onwards, that's a lot of people who would have quite likely missed their train.

(And if you can check, you'll see ALL the trains tonight did that - including some arriving at WGC 10 minutes early!)

For the record, I know a driver could have a different schedule and I'm not suggesting any did anything wrong - and it would be crazy to wait for 9 minutes at Potters Bar - but how can a TOC mess things up? How long was this error in place on Saturday?

 

[O L Leigh]

There is a lot tied up in this, but I'm not sure the precise information should have been published. Depending on what systems FCC use, it could have been driver error in the sense of them having failed to check the STN for amendments to the normal workings.

O L Leigh

 

[Bedpan]

I had a similar experience on the morning of the bank holiday Monday last August, travelling from St Pancras. The train left St Pancras about 5 mins late but was early at West Hampstead Thameslink and then ran earlier and earlier.
As far as I recall it waited several minutes for an on time departure from St Albans but then left Harpenden three mins early.
The departure times on the illuminated displays were clearly visible as we pulled in to every station but I deduced that the times on the boards may have been wrong and different to the published timetable. If I hadn't travelled overnight from Vancouver I'd have chrecked on the computer when I got home, but as it was I went straight to bed.

 

[455driver]

Or the drivers schedule had the times on that he ran too.

I have worked on trains where the driver has had different times (and stations) to what I have, not very often but it does occasionally happen.

 

[jon0844]

I can say with 99% certainty that the driver was not at fault. There is NO WAY on earth that any train would be scheduled to stop at a station for 9 minutes.

S/he MUST have had the correct schedule. However, for Joe Public that is no consolation. In any case, if all trains from 3pm today have been like this I am sure it has been reported to FCC by some angry passenger already.

Also, I don't feel there's any problem posting these times given that I was on that very train and can confirm its accuracy (well, until it went to the next station after I'd alighted). We can't pretend it didn't happen can we! However, I have edited it slightly.

 

[O L Leigh]

I've been scheduled to stop in odd places for what has felt like a very long time, so I can confirm that it is not unusual. We used to have a regular job where you came up from Enfield Town and had to wait at Edmonton Green for about 5 minutes.

I think you might be correct in suggesting that the driver was not at fault if all trains from 3pm onwards followed the same timings, but we are just assuming. Funny things can happen during the course of a day. But my default position is never to jump to conclusions about things like this. No matter how things might appear, we don't know precisely why trains were scheduled to wait this long at Potters Bar and whether or not these timings were reflected in the driver's schedule cards. As I hinted above, there are any number of reasons why a mistake like this could have happened and not all of them are completely innocent.

O L Leigh

 

[455driver]

I can say with 99% certainty that the driver was not at fault. There is NO WAY on earth that any train would be scheduled to stop at a station for 9 minutes.

They do some times-
2K77 0042 Waterloo to Strawberry Hill waits at Wimbledon from 0057 to 0105 (this is in case it is routed over the East Putney line).
There is also 1C99, (the down FGW sleeper) that waits for over an hour at Exeter St Davids and 40 minutes at Plymouth, although these aren't "normal" daytime services. this is the booked timings.

Short term alterations can bring a few more in as well.

 

[yorkie]

The 2200 from King's cross used to annoy me when it was booked via Hertford and never went that that way whenever I got it! It then waited 15 mins at Peterborough when you just wanted to get home! At least now if it doesn't go via Askern I'll be home early! Although I have to laugh when approaching Knottingley and people get up to get off as they think we're in York!

 

[jon0844]

As I said from the start, there was clearly some error in that I could see on the National Rail website the same departure showing THREE times. Each train was shown as leaving from platform 6, 11 and 'empty'. I can see that it appears that the empty one was down as a rail replacement bus!

I can't figure ANY logical reason for a 9 minute wait anywhere (we had already waited 3 minutes at Oakleigh Park and I wondered at the time whether someone had pulled the alarm, but it was because we were early there too) as the service only had 3 more stops before arriving at WGC. Because of engineering work beyond WGC, there was only this single WGC-KGX shuttle running all afternoon, as other trains all went on the Hertford Loop.

This error in itself isn't a major issue (well, except for people waiting for a train that has already gone) but does worry me about how FCC can have this problem for an entire day and not fix it. I shouldn't have to notice such things when King's Cross isn't exactly a tiny little station in the middle of the countryside with only a couple of services a day.

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm really not criticising you. Honestly.

Sometimes things happen on the railway that have no rhyme nor reason. Whether or not these timings are logical, these were the timings of the services and they should have run to these times. As to the reasons why they didn't, well we're into the realms of speculation.

I'm glad you don't blame the drivers, but it's not impossible that the early departure was due to driver error. Amended working throws up lots of potential for things to go wrong, mostly because someone somewhere hasn't read the STN correctly. I don't know if FCC uses the same system we do for producing and printing schedule cards, but if they don't and they're still using schedule books like we did the responsibility for checking the amended workings rests with the driver. I well remember spending an hour on Friday going through the STN and comparing it with my booked job to check if there were any alterations I needed to be aware of. But even the new system is not failsafe. If a driver re-uses a schedule card from a previous week and not that day's card it can introduce errors because the alterations may not be the same.

But then the error may rest elsewhere. Either way, whoever is responsible is going to feel the heat roasting their nuts at some point in the coming week.

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

All the trains were 9 or 10 minutes early. So, I'd say the drivers definitely had a different set of timings!

 

[flymo]

All the trains were 9 or 10 minutes early. So, I'd say the drivers definitely had a different set of timings!

Last minute changes to the timetables might be the answer as the engineering work has been cancelled.

The engineering work that was due to take place this weekend between Alexandra Palace and Potters Bar has been cancelled.

Because of the late notice of this cancellation, the following alterations will apply. These alterations are not currently showing in Journey Planning systems.

Saturday (from 15:30 to 01:30 Sunday) and Sunday (from 13:30 to 04:30 Monday)

National Express East Coast, Hull Trains, and Grand Central trains will run on their normal routes between London Kings Cross and Stevenage, and will not be diverted via Hertford North.

First Capital Connect services will run as follows:

* Trains will run at 18 and 47 minutes past each hour between London Kings Cross and Welwyn Garden City (these trains are incorrectly showing in Journey Planning systems as starting and terminating at New Barnet)
* Trains will run at 04 and 34 minutes past each hour between Welwyn Garden City and London Kings Cross (these trains are incorrectly showing in Journey Planning systems as starting and terminating at New Barnet)
* Trains showing in Journey Planning systems at 08 and 38 minutes past each hour between Potters Bar and Welwyn Garden City will not run (customers should use the trains between London Kings Cross and Welwyn Garden City)
* Trains showing in Journey Planning system at 28 and 58 minutes past each hour between Welwyn Garden City and Potters Bar will not run (customers should use the trains between Welwyn Garden City and London Kings Cross)
* Trains at 09 minutes past each hour from London Kings Cross to Peterborough, and at approximately 40 minutes past each hour from Peterborough to London Kings Cross will run via and call at Welwyn Garden City, and not via Hertford North.
* Buses that were due to run between New Barnet and Potters Bar in both directions will continue to run to supplement the train service, at the times shown in the Journey Planning systems.
* A normal Saturday / Sunday service will run between London Kings Cross and Cambridge

Hope this is of use.

 

[Metroland]

Not sure about this exact case, but a lot of the timings at the weekends can very slack to allow for engineering work, stuff like slow line diversions. Even if a train is an all stops, it can have additional time waiting for faster trains to cross in front.

The Night Rivera is booked a lot of time at Bristol again to allow for engineering work and can run via the multiple routes into Paddington.

*edit*

yep above posts confirms what i thought has happened, time padding for engineering work that is then cancelled.

 

[jon0844]

So are you saying that the driver was supposed to wait at Potters Bar? What a nonsense if the work was cancelled! And what a nightmare for passengers nearer to WGC.

I wonder if there was a similar problem going back to KGX, and where that was.

Anyway, thanks for that post @flymo. I'm sure every passenger, especially all those off-peak leisure travellers, knew exactly what was going on by reading that. Not forgetting the people who had been at the Emirates stadium for the football.

 

[dubscottie]

Thats Nothing. I remember getting the train from Crewe to Edinburgh in 1991ish.

I Still have the Family Railcard tickets in the cupboard, could tell you the exact dates. (will look them out) But just after the Carstairs - Edinburgh wires came online it was a Class 86 all the way from Carlisle but the times where still for 86 to Carstairs then change to a Diesel to Edinburgh.

Did the journey twice and we arrived in Edinburgh 35 mins early one night and the last was 50 mins early. (straight through with the 86 no change of traction at Carstairs)

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Looks very odd!

But as O L Leigh said, sometimes things happen for some inexplicable reason on the railway.

 

[Aictos]

So are you saying that the driver was supposed to wait at Potters Bar? What a nonsense if the work was cancelled! And what a nightmare for passengers nearer to WGC.

I wonder if there was a similar problem going back to KGX, and where that was.

Anyway, thanks for that post @flymo. I'm sure every passenger, especially all those off-peak leisure travellers, knew exactly what was going on by reading that. Not forgetting the people who had been at the Emirates stadium for the football.

I believe the driver is supposed to wait time, I say this because I was in Bristol a few weekends ago and was getting a late night Voyager back to Temple Meads from Parkway rather then a Pacer and it was sat at Parkway for 20 minutes because of cancelled engineering works.

So despite the engineering works being cancelled, the train still kept to the engineering timetable.

I've got engineering works next week on the Hertford route so as far as I am aware trains that I have to dispatch go at the advertised departure time per the traffic notices even if they got cancelled simple to ensure any passengers got their train home.

 

[The Planner]

Sounds like an upload failure or problem from NR if it appeared 3 times. The other reasons why it was so slack seem right to me, you have to remember that STP timetables are meant to be offered 12 weeks out. If engineering works are cancelled at short notice, there just isnt the time to re-write the timetable by either FCC or NR.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Network Rail haven't (or haven't been able to) been uploading STP timetables for a while. I think it was due to a fault within TPS.

 

[The Planner]

There were teething problems at the start but we have been uploading STP schedules for weeks now.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Not what I heard from a rather major TOC's train planners. In fact, they had sent a notice round their staff telling them not to rely on TRUST, STAR, NRES etc because of the problems.

 

[The Planner]

It's a lot better than it was, Id bet it was XC having a whinge, I know Chilterns have been pretty vociferous too.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Nowhere near with the TOC's, but I know it is a lot better than it was. All they need to fix now is the midnight times!

 

[Oswyntail]

Last minute changes to the timetables might be the answer as the engineering work has been cancelled.....

That seems to explain things. But...
Is this another example of a TOC running things to suit itself rather than its customers? Many (I would guess the majority) of those wishing to travel will have checked with the altered timetable - as is recommended - and might have been seriously inconvenienced by the restoration to normal. Why could the altered timetable not be kept in place?:roll:

 

[jon0844]

It should be (and must be?) possible to override things so you can show what's actually happening now, not what should have been or might have been?

If the work was cancelled and trains could now run as normal (and I guess it was actually meant to be buses before?) then you have to adjust the schedule. Having made the driver wait for 10 minutes at one station isn't the solution. People want to get home. As it was, they were running 313s with no toilets, so why would you want to sit around when all the semi-fast services had been turned into, effectively, all station stoppers (but, skipping Hornsey and Harringay).

 

[The Planner]

Nowhere near with the TOC's, but I know it is a lot better than it was. All they need to fix now is the midnight times!

Meant to be fixed over this weekend.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It should be (and must be?) possible to override things so you can show what's actually happening now, not what should have been or might have been?

If the work was cancelled and trains could now run as normal (and I guess it was actually meant to be buses before?) then you have to adjust the schedule.

So if the engineering work is cancelled with a couple of days notice, we have to stop whatever else is being done (ie: all the other STP work) and change everything back ?? Where is all the staff coming from to do that

 

[jon0844]

You make it sound like it needs days/weeks/months of planning to alter a handful of services that are already there, but with some errors. Can't you amend things once they're there? And, if not, why not?

Clearly the trains didn't run any reds by going early, so the only issue is updating a timetable for the benefit of passengers. Two trains per hour from 3pm to midnight doesn't seem like too much work, although I'll stand corrected if there's some incredibly lame and longwinded way to do it.

But, if there IS a lame and longwinded way to do things, why hasn't anyone made it easier?

 

[87015]

You make it sound like it needs days/weeks/months of planning to alter a handful of services that are already there, but with some errors. Can't you amend things once they're there? And, if not, why not?

Clearly the trains didn't run any reds by going early, so the only issue is updating a timetable for the benefit of passengers. Two trains per hour from 3pm to midnight doesn't seem like too much work, although I'll stand corrected if there's some incredibly lame and longwinded way to do it.

But, if there IS a lame and longwinded way to do things, why hasn't anyone made it easier?

If its cancelled at very short notice then there isn't the resources in either TOC or NR planning as it'll be cut to the bone (strange how you don't see strike threats and outrage when its office staff getting the chop.) On the day it should have been managed under control arrangements to a normal service - looks like FCC put this in the 'too difficult' or 'couldn't be bothered' bins - take your pick.

 

[Simon Poole]

There was this one tme that the 1206 to Birmingham New Street from Rugeley Trent Valley left 2 Minutes early one time

Also there been times that London Midland Trains arrive 1 minute to six minutes early at Rugeley Trent Valley, the timetable says 5 minutes between Rugeley Town and Trent Valley but it only takes 3 Minutes between the two stations

 

[The Planner]

That's a LM PPM blag. Everyone does it, not just LM. As long as we have the lax PPM situation or their SLC changes to say they must do the journey in x minutes, that is never going to change.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You make it sound like it needs days/weeks/months of planning to alter a handful of services that are already there, but with some errors. Can't you amend things once they're there? And, if not, why not?

Depends on when the cancellation, if there was one, took place. If it was a week out then yes, then the schedules would have been changed. If it was decided on the Thursday or Friday then firstly we need to be told that its cancelled, then you need people to stop doing the work they are doing, move the trains back, upload them to TOPS/TRUST and the myriad of other systems which then need to filter down the other side. Then FCC would need to tell customers that the engineering works were cancelled and a normal timetable would run. FCC might have just decided to run them to the STP timetable. It should be simple, but left hand and right hand on the railway rarely ever meet....