Train movements in through stations with bi directional platforms

[rower40]

Yes, would normally need 3 minutes between arrivals. One point though - will signalling systems allow you to set the road for simultaneous departures or is that usually prevented in the interlocking?

Preventing routes being set out of both ends appears to be a regional speciality. The older Scottish relay interlockings don't allow it. In one case that springs to mind (Cowdenbeath), the down platform starter in the down direction is an automatic, and it has to be replaced to danger by the signaller's replacement button before the route can be set from the up-direction signal in the same platform.

Which makes a mockery of ARS operation, since ARS can set routes, but it can't operate replacement buttons.

But when Waverley was resignalled to SSI, such controls weren't placed in the interlocking.

 

[Watershed]

Preventing routes being set out of both ends appears to be a regional speciality. The older Scottish relay interlockings don't allow it. In one case that springs to mind (Cowdenbeath), the down platform starter in the down direction is an automatic, and it has to be replaced to danger by the signaller's replacement button before the route can be set from the up-direction signal in the same platform.

Which makes a mockery of ARS operation, since ARS can set routes, but it can't operate replacement buttons.

But when Waverley was resignalled to SSI, such controls weren't placed in the interlocking.

There are restrictions in the Timetable Planning Rules (TPRs) for certain locations which prohibit timing trains so as to depart simultaneously from the same platform face. This suggests to me that it's not a general rule, but one that only applies at those specified stations.

I can certainly appreciate that it's not ideal having trains departing the same platform face simultaneously, especially if traditional platform dispatch staff are used. But clearly it does happen in places.

 

[robert thomas]

Ystrad Mynach

 

[Stuart-h]

Kettering on the slow lines in theroy can

 

[Sheridan]

Rock Ferry, Bidston, Chester, Nottingham and Sheffield (as previously said), Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Manchester Piccadilly (13 & 14) they do try to keep them unidirectional, but I've left from the 'wrong' platform, Manchester Oxford Road, Lancaster, Preston, Shrewsbury, Liverpool Central.

This doesn’t happen at Bangor, the platforms aren’t bi-directional.

 

[Western 52]

Llanelli is an interesting example. Platform 1 is technically bidirectional, but normally used only to reverse services on the Heart of Wales line, plus a few others. However there's a facing crossover at the site of the old Sandy junction, so it's possible for an up through train to use Platform 1. I've seen it done only once, for a 175 to pass an HST that had partially failed in Platform 2.

 

[asdirective]

Shrewsbury P4 is used throughout the day for various reverses, splits and divides, it being the only platform accessible to all routes.

The 0730 to Birmingham is formed of 4 cars. A 2 car service from Aberystwyth, arrives first from the South end. A 2 car from Crewe then arrives at the north end and then they work forward. This is further complicated as Crewe Jn box controls the North end of the station, and Severn Bridge Jn controls the south end. I'm not sure how it works, but they must have a local method of communicating between the two boxes as to when it is safe enough for the second train to enter after the first train has arrived.

4 car Holyhead trains from Brimingham divide, the rear 2 cars remaining in the platform, then 2 cars arrive from Holyhead, attach, and form a 4 car back to Birmingham.

The 1706 from Birmingham International is booked to be a 6 car. At Shrewsbury the front 2 continue to Llandudno, the middle 2 to Crewe, and the rear 2 reverse to become a Service to Aberystwyth.

 

[Annetts key]

Are there any instances in the UK where trains terminate their journey on a bi directional through platform before commencing their next trip in the opposite direction ( ie back towards where they came from?)

If so, are their instances in the timetable that have two trains approaching same platform from opposite directions either to operate return services in opposite directions or to amalgamate into one service for onward travel in either direction?

Other than slowly - how do the signalling rules allow two trains to approach each other - is it a standard procedure under permissive working?

The next question is whether ETCS L2 or L3 permits such a scenario under full supervision mode, or whether it would need to be over-ridden into on-sight or staff responsible modes.

I hope that makes sense!

Bristol Temple Meads before the mid platform St. Andrew’s Cross signs were replaced with normal signals had many occasions when a train would come in and terminate. Wait for it’s next service. Then a another train would come in from the opposite direction and terminate. Then one or the other would depart back the way it came, then the other train would do the same.

At the time, London Paddington - B.T.M. trains were HSTs, and the local services were DMUs.

Local instructions only allowed a movement into an occupied platform line if one train was stationary.

Yes, would normally need 3 minutes between arrivals. One point though - will signalling systems allow you to set the road for simultaneous departures or is that usually prevented in the interlocking?

Not all interlockings required three minutes between arrivals. E10,000 Western Region as used at B.T.M. did not have this.
Similarly, there were no interlocking restrictions on both signals (up direction and down direction) being cleared up from the same platform, whether occupied or not. If this was due to S&T testing a signal (the most common reason, as normally two trains were not timetabled to depart from the same platform at the same time), the signaller would however ask that we inform the station staff so that there would be no confusion.

 

[zwk500]

Not all interlockings required three minutes between arrivals. E10,000 Western Region as used at B.T.M. did not have this.
Similarly, there were no interlocking restrictions on both signals (up direction and down direction) being cleared up from the same platform, whether occupied or not. If this was due to S&T testing a signal (the most common reason, as normally two trains were not timetabled to depart from the same platform at the same time), the signaller would however ask that we inform the station staff so that there would be no confusion.

Bristol TM and Edinburgh are quite specific situations though with double-length platforms that were not considered 'sharing' in the normal sense.

 

[D2007wsm]

There is usually 1 train an hour from Weston-super-Mare which does this

 

[unlevel42]

At Derby platform 4 at the south end Cardiff Nottingham and Crewe Newark Castle trains reverse and Matlock trains arrive depart.
Platform 1 and 5 in Sheffield see trains arrive and depart from/to the north and 4,5 and 8 from/to the south. Platform 5 doing both reversals.

 

[laseandre]

Up until around 2009/2010 there was a twice a day service from Glasgow Queen Street to Westerton to connect with the Fort William sleeper, it used to arrive at Westerton to connect with the morning sleeper to Fort William, reverse back to the depot at Eastfield IIRC, then return from the depot after the London sleeper at night, and reverse back towards Queen St in service. Maybe not quite the thing this thread is about since the reversals are going into and coming out of service, but it's similar nonetheless.

 

[Geeves]

All the platforms at Manchester Victoria and the reverse sidings are all permissible working. Hundreds if not thousands of movements and reversals per year.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

All the platforms at Manchester Victoria and the reverse sidings are all permissible working. Hundreds if not thousands of movements and reversals per year.

Indeed, but do any services terminate on, say, the through platforms 3 or 6 at Manchester Victoria before doubling back, or do they just continue on elsewhere?

 

[zwk500]

Indeed, but do any services terminate on, say, the through platforms 3 or 6 at Manchester Victoria before doubling back, or do they just continue on elsewhere?

Not sure about current timetable but pre-covid it was certainly quite common for a platform to have a service in each end that would return back out from where they had come.

 

[Watershed]

Indeed, but do any services terminate on, say, the through platforms 3 or 6 at Manchester Victoria before doubling back, or do they just continue on elsewhere?

Multiple times a day. There's also several examples of trains sharing the same platform and then departing in opposite directions.

 

[james60059]

Staying local to me.

Nuneaton (Platform 1) - WMR services to and from Leamington Spa.
Leicester (Platform 1) - XC local services to and from Birmingham New Street.
Leicester (Platform 4) - EMR local services to and from Lincoln Central/Cleethorpes

 

[Steve Harris]

Back before the Royston - Cambridge route was electrified Platform 1 at Royston used to see a Class 317 (Kings Cross service) and Class 101 (Cambridge service) share the same platform at the same time.

When the Class 365's were introduced on the through service's on the same route there used to be a evening Kings X - Kings Lynn service which used to arrive in Cambridge (Platform 1) as a 8 car, split, with the front 4 going to Kings Lynn and the rear 4 going back to Kings X non stop. Both in service and both were timetabled to leave at the same time !!

I think it got changed after a year after it became apparent that passengers for north of Cambridge used to get carried back to Kings X because they had not heard the onboard PA/ the station PA / fallen asleep/ distracted/ couldn't comprehend that they were in the wrong coach for travel to their destination *.

* delete whichever is not applicable.

 

[a1904]

Might happen at other times as well but the 05.58 from Manchester Piccadilly to Huddersfield is usually a 6 carriage 185 that will then form the 06.49 from Huddersfield to Leeds and the 06.54 from Huddersfield to Manchester Piccadilly.

Although more often than not they will not have enough drivers to run it back to Manchester so it just runs through to Leeds

 

[Birmingham]

Are there any instances in the UK where trains terminate their journey on a bi directional through platform before commencing their next trip in the opposite direction ( ie back towards where they came from?)

Worcester Foregate Street has 2tph of services via Birmingham Snow Hill that do this on Platform 2 and some GWR services on Platform 1.

 

[Parallel]

I think this happens at Westbury as all platforms are bi-directional, trains regularly arrive from the north, terminate, then go back out north again.

 

[Bevan Price]

Wigan North Western (Platforms 6 and 1).

 

[plugwash]

Llanelli is an interesting example. Platform 1 is technically bidirectional, but normally used only to reverse services on the Heart of Wales line, plus a few others.

I think there is a similar situation at Wigan North Western. Looking at tracksy, platforms 1 and 6 both appear to be set up as bidirectional through platforms but are rarely used as such. Normally platform 6 is used to reverse trains from Liverpool. Platform 1 is not used much, but when it is used it seems to mostly be used for trains to/from Manchester via bolton/atherton and/or for trains to/from springs branch stabling sidings.

 

[43066]

Lots of examples of this happening at Sheffield and Nottingham.

Also Corby, Kettering as above, and possible at Wellingborough on the down slow. Plus Bedford. Many, many examples over the network.

 

[Pokelet]

Worcester Foregate Street has 2tph of services via Birmingham Snow Hill that do this on Platform 2 and some GWR services on Platform 1.

There's probably some WMT services that do this on P1 also.

Shrub hill can do the same, terminate from Birmingham and depart back again. Same for services from Paddington. There used to be some services that split/combined at WOS too.

 

[Birmingham]

There's probably some WMT services that do this on P1 also.

Indeed: from the May timetable, half of the Snow Hill services go via Shrub Hill and then terminate at Foregate Street.

 

[Geezertronic]

Birmingham International has trains that come from New Street and terminate normally on Platforms 1 & 3 (sometimes 5 as well), then head towards New Street on their next turn

 

[D6130]

Chester,

When I arrived at Chester yesterday afternoon, there were two different trains for Liverpool standing in platform 7 and heading in opposite directions. Merseyrail's 14 31 electric departure via Hooton was in platform 7a and TfW's 14 43 departure via Runcorn was in 7b. This caused some confusion amongst a large group of 'mature' ladies who had alighted from the Cardiff train and were heading for a week on the town in Liverpool.

 

[Lloyds siding]

This doesn’t happen at Bangor, the platforms aren’t bi-directional.

Apologies, it's far too long since I was last there!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Feb 2023 ==

When I arrived at Chester yesterday afternoon, there were two different trains for Liverpool standing in platform 7 and heading in opposite directions. Merseyrail's 14 31 electric departure via Hooton was in platform 7a and TfW's 14 43 departure via Runcorn was in 7b. This caused some confusion amongst a large group of 'mature' ladies who had alighted from the Cardiff train and were heading for a week on the town in Liverpool.

T'other way about I think! 7a isn't electrified, and they'd have to pass through each other for this scenario!

 

[D6130]

Apologies, it's far too long since I was last there!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Feb 2023 ==


T'other way about I think! 7a isn't electrified, and they'd have to pass through each other for this scenario!

Yes....sorry, you're right of course. However, when pulling out of platform 5 later in the day, I'm sure I saw the third rail extending right to the (ex-) barrow crossing at the Crewe/Warrington end of platform 7, so in theory it should be possible for an electric unit to use 7a in an emergency.