Train Tickets Are To Cheap?

[Lee_Again]

I'd be the first to suggest that the present fare structure is an antiquated mess. You don't need to be a ticketing expert to find plenty of examples of fares that just defy all reasonable logic and sense. Having said that, there are plenty of 'deals' that make travelling by train a wonderful experience enjoyable by all.

Coming back to the Thread title, it's these cheap advance tickets that I wish to seek opinion on. I recently travelled from York to Stevenage on a Sunday afternoon using an East Coast service. It was the 18.01 departure. The train was packed with many people standing. I was in a group of 8 and we had paid only £25 each to get from Carlisle to Stevenage. I should say that I'm a huge fan of advance tickets. I travel by train all over the UK, often in 1st, simply because the tickets are so cheap. But why, especially given the fact that NXEC couldn't make the numbers work, do TOC's offer these tickets on a popular train?

We ALL know that morning trains to London, evening trains from London, similar flows to the other large cities, and practically all 'Inter City' Sunday afternoon and evening trains are busy. Why make the situation worse? And why give away seats when you don't need to?

Have £20 York to London tickets available on Sunday mornings, not afternoons. If people wish to travel in the peak (as described above) let them pay a fair fare. I have no problem with 'giving' the tickets away on otherwise empty trains but the TOC's have no obligation to do so at other times. They are simply giving money away. Seems madness to me. And now that the ECML is publically owned, it's our money they're giving away.

 

[90019]

But, by the same token, the people who are on there on the more expensive tickets will almost certainly have travelled on that service regardless, whereas the ones on cheaper tickets wouldn't, meaning that the TOC will get more income from that specific train.

 

[Mojo]

It could have been that normally that train is not very busy normally, however being a Sunday evening on an InterCity route, especially going towards London I find that incredibly hard to believe that the train is not normally busy.

 

[yorkie]

It's not that Advance purchase tickets are too cheap. The problem is they can't get the quotas right! There are many trains where they should offer more cheap tickets for, and some they really should offer none for. Why do they offer cheap tickets for the first truly off peak train into King's Cross from Newcastle, York etc, for example? Madness. That train is always wedged. But the train before isn't as busy, because it's expensive for walk-on travel. When I've had a NE Rover, I know there is more chance of a seat on the 0850ish departure than on the 0936ish departure, because most people are going to London and can't afford to get the earlier one. And if you go for the 0800 or 0810 you can get a bay of 4 to yourself easily, because it costs £100s for walk on travel.

 

[142094]

This has been quite a recent discussion, so I'll summarise what I said in it.

Basically I agree that some advance fares are ridiculously cheap, and that walk on fares are ridculously expensive. However I use the cheap fares quite a lot, as I'm fortunate to know far in advance when I will be travelling and what times. I also sometimes pick obscure times - once got back to York at 02.00 from London going via Leeds as the ticket was under £10 advance.

I also pointed out that GC have got it bang on with their ticket structure. Walk on fares are very reasonable for a good service. This could be replicated across the network. However I'd still keep some advance fares but either raise the price a little or lower the allocations.

Either that, or get more carriages and longer platforms to fit everyone on!

 

[WatcherZero]

I have no problem with walk on local fares, even in peak and theirs some pretty good all day tickets, or all day +Bus/Tram. I have a problem with expensive walk on national fares however, no train ticket should be more expensive than a standard air carrier flight (excluding budget airlines as thats their model). For example (and this is going backa couple of years) to book a month in advance to travel from my home to my university was £16, on the day, same train, it was £64! Coach trip to London £18, cost of train ticket £180!

You cant argue that a small number of advance fares are being used to manage capacity as Ive never seen a train ive booked (Edinburgh, Lancaster, Birmingham, Crewe) ever not have an available advanced ticket for every single departure and at the same time not have masses of people standing, the same people who paid the most for the journey. I would love to know the proportion of these advanced tickets sold as im sure a more equitable split could be found by increasing advanced fares by half and halving turn up fares that would lead to more people travlling rather than flying or taking the coach.

 

[Greenback]

But, by the same token, the people who are on there on the more expensive tickets will almost certainly have travelled on that service regardless, whereas the ones on cheaper tickets wouldn't, meaning that the TOC will get more income from that specific train.

Where people are travelling on walk up tickets, it's nigh on impossible to accurately predict how many of them will actually travel on a particular service. This is compounded when there are service difficulties which result in more people boarding a particular service because a previous train was delayed or cancelled. This can mean that a train can appear to be completely wedged, whereas normally it is simply very busy. Often trains are only very busy because the advance fares attract a lot of people who would not otherwise travel, as the OP implies.

We should not forget either, that it's in the interests of the TOC's to extract maximum revenue from each service that they run. Putting my cynical head on, if they have a 300 seat train and they can sell 150 advance tickets knowing they'll also sell 200 walk up fares, they're laughing! And so, in the end, are the taxpayers, who would otherwise have to pay extra subsidies!

 

[Helvellyn]

I'd say SWT have a good model, with normal type Advance fares available on the longer distance routes, plus megatrain on key routes to fill capacity where they know the train is never going to be full. Even then, the latter are used only to/from Waterloo and key stations.

With an operator like East Coast you could argue that why not restrict advance tickets to destinations beyond Newcastle from London, but introduce a megatrain type product to fill up some of the lighter used services between London and Leeds/York.

 

[HORNIMANS]

Train fares need to be simplified
Back in the 70's I used to travel by train a lot, all on walk up and go fares, went on Day return tickets to almost anywhere there was a service. No need to book in advance, If you wanted to travel on a particular train and time, you just bought your ticket earlier and reserved a seat. Not hard is it!!!!

 

[cuccir]

Unless someone on here has access to figures, we're really speculating, but it seems that the people paying £104.60 to go from NCL to London (current walk on off-peak return) must be subsidising those doing the same trip for ~£20 in some way. The question is how much advance fares would have to rise for walk on fares to be 'reasonable'; or if each NCL-LDN walk-on was at, say, £60, would advance fares be sustainable?

In an ideal world I'd be happy to accept higher advance fares and lower walk-ons, with special offers in place for particularly low-use trains on a train by train and TOC by TOC basis. But that would require work, planning and admin, itself all very costly.

 

[Zoe]

However, the railways are run by private companies where profit and shareholders have to be taken into account. Reducing the cost of walk-on fares would result in less profit and so I doubt it will ever be done. TOCs may decide to increase the advance fares if it doesn't result in the losing too many passengers but many people that use walk-on fares have no alternative so there is no reason to reduce them. I don't agree with it but can't really see any change with the system we have now.

 

[LondonLarry]

Train fares need to be simplified
Back in the 70's I used to travel by train a lot, all on walk up and go fares, went on Day return tickets to almost anywhere there was a service. No need to book in advance, If you wanted to travel on a particular train and time, you just bought your ticket earlier and reserved a seat. Not hard is it!!!!

Don't forget it was BR who started to move away from distance based charging and introduced various Off Peak tickets as well as Apex, SuperApex and SuperAdvance fares. Fares 'complification' was started before privatisation when BR learnt that it needed a business hat.

Although fares aren't simple, the TOCs still offer a range of products to suit peoples needs. You travel at the busiest times of day, you pay the highest fares. Simple.

 

[Old Timer]

Don't forget it was BR who started to move away from distance based charging and introduced various Off Peak tickets as well as Apex, SuperApex and SuperAdvance fares. Fares 'complification' was started before privatisation when BR learnt that it needed a business hat..

Fares under BR were not complicated, indeed by todays standards they were very simple indeed.

Although fares aren't simple, the TOCs still offer a range of products to suit peoples needs. You travel at the busiest times of day, you pay the highest fares. Simple.

The issue about reduced fares is that for example in the case of Virgin, only ONE vehicle in each class is allocated for the use of walk on passengers paying full fare. The rest are sold off at rock bottom prices.

Those paying full fare will normally be business travellers, who actually do have alternative options, and it only takes a couple of journey's standing up when those who have paid very little have a seat that droves them away from using rail. As they are paying sometimes 7 or 8 times the cheaper fares, Virgin are turning away their best revenue, however as they are (still.......despite all Branson's promises) subsidised by the taxpayer, why should they worry anyway ?

 

[clagmonster]

You say that there is only one coach for those paying full fare, but could it be that in the remaining coaches, some seats are unreserved and/or some of the reserved seats are reserved by people with full fare tickets, which can be done at no extra cost.
In my opinion, advance tickets should not come with a seat reservation, rather a card stating which service the ticket is to be used on, which would at least give full-fare paying passengers an equal chance of getting a seat.
There should also be no advance tickets on the busiest of trains, ie those at the height of the peak and the first trains on which savers, cheap days, supersavers and the like are valid on. Walk up tickets should be a sensible price, with a premium for travelling in the peak on route on which peak time overcrowding occurs, with advance tickets used to fill otherwise empty off-peak seats. However, I don't see this as very likely on this railway run more for profit than as a public service.

 

[WatcherZero]

I quiet like the Pendolino seat booking system (can see where the reserved seat passenger will board) Though half the time the computer would crash, and reverse the order of the coachs :P

 

[142094]

TPE have started to annoy me with their reserved seating arrangements. I usually go for a forward facing, non table window seat. However there have been a few times recently where the booking system says there are only aisle seats left, but when I get on there are plenty of window seats available. Also, it doesn't take into account the length of journey. I did Liverpool Lime Street to York a couple of weeks back and I had to get up for people getting on/off at Warrington, Manchester Oxford Road, Man Piccadilly, Huddersfield and Leeds.

 

[royaloak]

When the person got off at Warrington why didnt you sit in the window seat?

 

[yorkie]

When the person got off at Warrington why didnt you sit in the window seat?

In case a pedantic guard boarded at Manchester who said that the tickets are only valid in the booked seat I guess anyone sitting in another seat could be branded a fare dodger and bla bla bla

There's no way a TPE guard would do that though, and if you simply sat in a nearby seat and removed the label, thus freeing up the seat for others that would be fine. Or you could ask the guard if you were worried. TPE guards are generally very good and helpful, I've not experienced any exceptions to that personally at all.

 

[First class]

In case a pedantic guard boarded at Manchester who said that the tickets are only valid in the booked seat I guess anyone sitting in another seat could be branded a fare dodger and bla bla bla

There's no way a TPE guard would do that though, and if you simply sat in a nearby seat and removed the label, thus freeing up the seat for others that would be fine. Or you could ask the guard if you were worried. TPE guards are generally very good and helpful, I've not experienced any exceptions to that personally at all.

It is printed on the labels that you would be liable for fines for the following:

1) Penalty for unauthorised removal of this label £200
2) Penalty for unauthorised occupation of this seat £50

Does anyone know whether this was ever fully enforced, or whether it is still printed on them?

There is no specific byelaw, (except I suppose failing to co-operate with a member of staff's reasonable demands, but that has up to £1000 fine).

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3352/3295933164_28a57eb1cc.jpg?v=0

 

[stut]

Walk up tickets should be a sensible price, with a premium for travelling in the peak on route on which peak time overcrowding occurs, with advance tickets used to fill otherwise empty off-peak seats. However, I don't see this as very likely on this railway run more for profit than as a public service.

I fully agree - this is the nub of the matter.

Many here seem to have forgotten the old-fashioned way of doing it, which was simply to make the busiest trains 'reservation only' and the next busiest 'reservation recommended'. It works in many other countries!

Personally, I find the Japanese system works well - you have designated reserved and unreserved carriages, the ratio between them varying according to time of day. It's clear where to queue for access to the unreserved carriages, and first-come-first-served. People know which trains it's wise to book in advance, and which ones are find to take a chance on. And yes, there are now some discount tickets on the slower (e.g. Kodama) Shinkansen services.

 

[LondonLarry]

The issue about reduced fares is that for example in the case of Virgin, only ONE vehicle in each class is allocated for the use of walk on passengers paying full fare. The rest are sold off at rock bottom prices.

Those paying full fare will normally be business travellers, who actually do have alternative options, and it only takes a couple of journey's standing up when those who have paid very little have a seat that droves them away from using rail. As they are paying sometimes 7 or 8 times the cheaper fares, Virgin are turning away their best revenue, however as they are (still.......despite all Branson's promises) subsidised by the taxpayer, why should they worry anyway ?

You know this how? Do you work in Virgin's revenue team?

Ultimately, Advance fares are a near guaranteed income stream whereas travel is more discressionary for those on higher fares. I'm sure there are plenty of business people travelling on Advance fares.

 

[Drsatan]

I've noticed that there are some quite striking fare anomalies.

I've looked on the NR website and an AP single from Romsey to Gloucester (including 16-25 railcard discount) leaving on 14/4/10 is just £3.95 , which by anyone's standards is ridiculously cheap, although it's only valid on the only through service to Gloucester (ex. Southampton Central, leaves Romsey at 08:35 )

The only fare available for the return working, which leaves Gloucester at 17:54, is a £19.60 off-peak single, for some reason no AP single is available

Leaving on the same day, an AP single to Bristol Temple Meads on the 08:35 is £2.95, although an AP single on the 08:00 is £7.25. However, these are only available in advance. Nonetheless, very cheap AP fares (assuming that I know far enough in advance when and where I'm going to be travelling) are great if like me, you're a student on a limited budget.

I've looked at fares for travel to Romsey and Bristol tomorrow and the only single available for the 07:00 departure is a £13.85 anytime single, whereas an AP single for £7.25 is still available for the 08:00 departure. IMO, this doesn't make sense since from my own experience the 08:00 is the busier train, so in theory fewer AP fares should be made available for that service. On the 08:35, an AP single from Romsey to Bristol (carries on to Gloucester) is still only £2.95, assuming you can put up with a 150 or 153 all the way to Bristol.

 

[142094]

When the person got off at Warrington why didnt you sit in the window seat?

The person who got on at Warrington wanted the window seat. If I had sat there, then someone who was standing would have taken the aisle seat, so would have caused a bit of a problem.

 

[Helvellyn]

Those paying full fare will normally be business travellers, who actually do have alternative options, and it only takes a couple of journey's standing up when those who have paid very little have a seat that droves them away from using rail. As they are paying sometimes 7 or 8 times the cheaper fares, Virgin are turning away their best revenue, however as they are (still.......despite all Branson's promises) subsidised by the taxpayer, why should they worry anyway ?

They should go down the SWT route - abandon seat reservations on advance fares and just book the passenger on the stated train. Quotas would remain the same but then it would be first come, first served for seats. We were told it was done on SWT precisely because of the number complainst from walk-on fare passengers who could not get a seat, and because so many advance fare passengers were going off and sitting elsewhere. This meant those with walk-on fares were unsure if they could occupy "reserved" seats!

 

[Zoe]

They should go down the SWT route - abandon seat reservations on advance fares and just book the passenger on the stated train.

Would it not be an idea to have an option for a reservation with an advance fare subject to a charge. The current system on most TOCs also leaves seats reserved if the person for any reason doesn't travel as Advance fares are non-refundable. This reservation charge of say £5 could be a refundable though even if the fare is not.

 

[jon0844]

Given they copy the low cost airline approach, I'm surprised the seat reservation hasn't been re-sold like priority boarding, so it sounds like a worthy extra to get one over your fellow passengers... In fact, imagine the TOC going one stage further and having walk-up fare customers boarding and being invited to take the next available seat in coach 'x'. You either try your luck on the other carriages, or pay extra to get a guaranteed seat there.

A good little money spinner on busy services! You can now offer cheaper tickets, but know that people will likely voluntarily pay a bit extra.

 

[Failed Unit]

They should go down the SWT route - abandon seat reservations on advance fares and just book the passenger on the stated train. Quotas would remain the same but then it would be first come, first served for seats. We were told it was done on SWT precisely because of the number complainst from walk-on fare passengers who could not get a seat, and because so many advance fare passengers were going off and sitting elsewhere. This meant those with walk-on fares were unsure if they could occupy "reserved" seats!

Don't give them ideas

However that is the thing with AP's you want to travel from London - Edinburgh you can book on 2 trains with a £13 ticket, much cheaper than the walk on single. I think this happens a lot so there are a lot of no-shows as a result. (The same happens on budget airlines). I guess £1 for a seat reservation isn't going to put someone off travelling.

I must admit if it is cheaper I often book two "return" tickets if I am not sure what time a meeting will finish just in case if it is cheaper than buying the more flexiable return.

 

[jon0844]

I must admit if it is cheaper I often book two "return" tickets if I am not sure what time a meeting will finish just in case if it is cheaper than buying the more flexiable return.

Easyjet will now let you travel on an earlier flight free, if there's a seat, which has two benefits; one, it might stop people buying two tickets they aren't going to use, and second, it means they can get to fill an earlier seat and then re-sell your other reservation.

I wonder if any TOC could do that. That way, I'd book a fairly late advance ticket and could still try and go earlier, which helps the TOC and myself.

 

[Failed Unit]

Easyjet will now let you travel on an earlier flight free, if there's a seat, which has two benefits; one, it might stop people buying two tickets they aren't going to use, and second, it means they can get to fill an earlier seat and then re-sell your other reservation.

I wonder if any TOC could do that. That way, I'd book a fairly late advance ticket and could still try and go earlier, which helps the TOC and myself.

I don't think that would ever really work on the railways. It is good PR for them but I think they would rather someone buy 2 tickets, not many people buy flights on the day.

However back to rail, you are at York going to Edinburgh with your AP. How do you know if the train has any seats free? If it does could you be taking someones seat at Darlington? Everyone would just book the 1800 and chance their arm! I sort of do now if I have a flexible, I book my seat on what I feel will be the most busy and if I escape then just hope their is a spare seat (or stand if it gets me home quicker!)

I would be nice if you could excess, but again that would defeat the whole point of AP's

 

[Lee_Again]

Some interesting ideas have been mentioned.

Not sure we covered the selling of AP tickets on busy trains but nevermind.

I see there are tickets available for less then £40 from York to London on Easter Monday afternoon. I'm no expert but I'm sure those trains will be rammed. The walk on fare is about £80. Why sell cheap tickets??

For what it's worth I think the whole ticketing system needs changing. There's obviously the pricing structure but as important is the seat allocation system. Most long distance trains have fixed formations so selling specific seats on a specific service should not be impossible to implement. The airlines (most) offer this as standard and their planes have all sorts of seating arrangements.

AP tickets should require an immediate reservation; you pick the seats from a carriage plan. That way you can pick exactly where you want to sit; window, table, facing, quiet, near the buffet? And groups can sit together around tables or where ever.

For other ticket types you should be able to 'check in' and book your seat almost up to departure from the originating station. This is not perfect but would cut down on 'no shows'.