Train v bus in the snow

[geoffk]

Someone writing on Facebook yesterday.

"I tried to get a train from Swansea to Builth Road last Thursday. Turned up to find the 1418 train was cancelled, but there was a Rail Replacement Bus running. The bus driver said "Trains can't run in snow, but they expect us to run!"
He had a good point. The bus drove up the A483, over the top of Sugar Loaf, lots of hairpin bends with sheer drops on one side, all in the snow. Probably quite hazardous - I expected us to re-enact the final scene from The Italian Job at any minute. Meanwhile, the trains were tucked up safe and warm in the depot, because it was too dangerous to go out!"

I remember a time when, in bad weather, you were asked to consider switching from car or bus to train. Now it's usually the other way round. Discuss, as they say. (There may have been other issues like trees on the line, but trees can also block roads.)

 

[skyhigh]

I remember a time when, in bad weather, you were asked to consider switching from car or bus to train. Now it's usually the other way round. Discuss, as they say. (There may have been other issues like trees on the line, but trees can also block roads.)

The train in question was cancelled due to another train blocking the line due to hitting an obstruction. Would you rather TfW didn't provide a rail replacement bus and just waited until the line reopened?

 

[zwk500]

Well, trains do run in the snow so the premise is not entirely correct.

On a more technical note, rubber tyres on gritted roads have a increased level of grip compared to steel wheels on steel rails, so there are circumstances in which I would expect a bus to run and a train cannot. Equally trains could be not running because the driver couldn't make it to the depot due to their car not coping with snowy roads.

 

[nlogax]

"Trains can't run in snow, but they expect us to run!"

Having seen the famous video of a bus driver ascending Saltburn Bank in grim snowy conditions I'm convinced of bus drivers' skills to get us around when winter is afoot. What you describe above sounds pretty similar!

 

[Spartacus]

I believe it was actually more due to a train ahead being disabled due to a striking a fallen tree, and buses are no more capable than driving through trees, or other buses, than trains are. They are however more capable of finding alternative routes.

 

[Deepgreen]

Well, trains do run in the snow so the premise is not entirely correct.

On a more technical note, rubber tyres on gritted roads have a increased level of grip compared to steel wheels on steel rails, so there are circumstances in which I would expect a bus to run and a train cannot. Equally trains could be not running because the driver couldn't make it to the depot due to their car not coping with snowy roads.

As has been discussed in another thread, the adhesion in snowy weather is only slightly reduced, and, of course the fundamental thing is that a train is not steered and will not veer off the track on a snowy curve! This thread is based on the premise that the trains had given up because of the snow per se, but the cancellation was for an obstruction. Of course, the OP wasn't told that, and the bus driver probably didn't know.

 

[furnessvale]

At one time, you relied on the Buxton line train when the snow fell. Nowadays the opposite is true. Just the other day, 10th March, the trains were cancelled ALL day because of snow. The road was also affected but before lunchtime a virtually normal bus service was running.

Sadly, the railway justs seems to give up these days and any idea of resilience is a joke. On one occasion, they ploughed out the Buxton line and at 8pm proudly announced that they would restart services at 8am the following morning. No prizes for guessing that at 8am the trains didn't run because of overnight drifting.

As an example, a couple of years ago, a serious railway journalist castigated me for telling someone (a railway employee) they were wrong in suggesting trains couldn't run if the driver couldn't see the rails! Given that a snow plough only removes snow down to 8" above rail level, the suggestion was that no trains should run until snow has melted down to rail level.

 

[notverydeep]

At one time, you relied on the Buxton line train when the snow fell. Nowadays the opposite is true. Just the other day, 10th March, the trains were cancelled ALL day because of snow. The road was also affected but before lunchtime a virtually normal bus service was running.

Sadly, the railway justs seems to give up these days and any idea of resilience is a joke. On one occasion, they ploughed out the Buxton line and at 8pm proudly announced that they would restart services at 8am the following morning. No prizes for guessing that at 8am the trains didn't run because of overnight drifting.

As an example, a couple of years ago, a serious railway journalist castigated me for telling someone (a railway employee) they were wrong in suggesting trains couldn't run if the driver couldn't see the rails! Given that a snow plough only removes snow down to 8" above rail level, the suggestion was that no trains should run until snow has melted down to rail level.

The railway learned a significant lesson from its treatment by the media during the 1991 "wrong kind of snow" episode. It was that, however hard they tried to keep things going (and in 1991 they tried very hard indeed), they will still be castigated by the media. So if you get no credit for trying, why not just advise people to stay away and resume when the adverse conditions pass? Given the elevated incidence of slips trips and falls, risk of stranding a train and self evacuation etc. such conditions entail, it seems hard to say this wasn't the lesson they should have taken...

 

[Spartacus]

Also when maintenance teams are cut to the bare minimum and a major weather incident occurs the one team can't be in 16 places at once clearing snow and ice from points, removing trees etc. Inevitably they're concentrated on the core routes.

 

[Rescars]

The railway learned a significant lesson from its treatment by the media during the 1991 "wrong kind of snow" episode. It was that, however hard they tried to keep things going (and in 1991 they tried very hard indeed), they will still be castigated by the media. So if you get no credit for trying, why not just advise people to stay away and resume when the adverse conditions pass? Given the elevated incidence of slips trips and falls, risk of stranding a train and self evacuation etc. such conditions entail, it seems hard to say this wasn't the lesson they should have taken...

They did try hard. I was caught up in this. My London Bridge to Epsom service took over 5 hours to get to East Croydon via an unusual route, where it was understandably terminated. I don't recall the buses doing much better. Truly a commute to remember!

 

[al78]

I was due to go by train from Horsham to Manchester last Friday (10th) via Sheffield only to find out when I checked that trains from Sheffield to Manchester weren't running because of fallen trees. Had I tried to wing it, I'd have had at least an hour's idle time at Sheffield station. I thus binned the tickets and drove, without incident.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I was due to go by train from Horsham to Manchester last Friday (10th) via Sheffield only to find out when I checked that trains from Sheffield to Manchester weren't running because of fallen trees. Had I tried to wing it, I'd have had at least an hour's idle time at Sheffield station. I thus binned the tickets and drove, without incident.

Why "bin" the tickets? Would have thought that you'd have been entitled to a full refund, under the given circumstances. (Or, perhaps, to have travelled by rail via an alternative route).

 

[furnessvale]

I was due to go by train from Horsham to Manchester last Friday (10th) via Sheffield only to find out when I checked that trains from Sheffield to Manchester weren't running because of fallen trees. Had I tried to wing it, I'd have had at least an hour's idle time at Sheffield station. I thus binned the tickets and drove, without incident.

Now on that I have some sympathy, although a lot is self inflicted. Trees can fall in snow, wind and heavy rain.

I have had a saying for years that no tree should stand anywhere, where if it falls it can obstruct a running line. I include private land in this and the law should be changed accordingly. It is a safety issue.

Sadly, a lot of this is self inflicted. Since 1968 trees have been allowed to grow freely and the railways now have a major catch up operation on their hands, hampered at evey turn by misguided tree huggers.

 

[Runningaround]

Well, trains do run in the snow so the premise is not entirely correct.

On a more technical note, rubber tyres on gritted roads have a increased level of grip compared to steel wheels on steel rails, so there are circumstances in which I would expect a bus to run and a train cannot. Equally trains could be not running because the driver couldn't make it to the depot due to their car not coping with snowy roads.

Train drivers are supposed to live within 60 min walking distance of their depot so can make it in all weather, are they moving outside this once past their probationary period?

 

[Horizon22]

Now on that I have some sympathy, although a lot is self inflicted. Trees can fall in snow, wind and heavy rain.

I have had a saying for years that no tree should stand anywhere, where if it falls it can obstruct a running line. I include private land in this and the law should be changed accordingly. It is a safety issue.

Sadly, a lot of this is self inflicted. Since 1968 trees have been allowed to grow freely and the railways now have a major catch up operation on their hands, hampered at evey turn by misguided tree huggers.

Yes and, as mentioned above, it is much easier for a bus or a car to re-route than a train; in many circumstances there is no alternative train route at all if there is an obstruction. Regulatory and legal issue for Network Rail though as you say to interfere with trains not on their land.

 

[L401CJF]

Train drivers are supposed to live within 60 min walking distance of their depot so can make it in all weather, are they moving outside this once past their probationary period?

Never heard of a 60 minute walking distance requirement before? 60 minute commute yes, walk no.

 

[158747]

Train drivers are supposed to live within 60 min walking distance of their depot so can make it in all weather, are they moving outside this once past their probationary period?

If that was true a train driver could only live a maximum of approximately 3 miles away from their depot, which would not be very practical.

 

[43066]

Train drivers are supposed to live within 60 min walking distance of their depot so can make it in all weather, are they moving outside this once past their probationary period?

Never heard of a 60 minute walking distance requirement before? 60 minute commute yes, walk no.

Precisely!

 

[dk1]

Train drivers are supposed to live within 60 min walking distance of their depot so can make it in all weather, are they moving outside this once past their probationary period?

News to me.

 

[Snow1964]

Also when maintenance teams are cut to the bare minimum and a major weather incident occurs the one team can't be in 16 places at once clearing snow and ice from points, removing trees etc. Inevitably they're concentrated on the core routes.

There are not many points on that line

To provide a balanced answer, some of the trees are because they have been allowed to grow where any falling branches are likely to end up on the track.

But I won't go off topic any further, as this isn't a lineside vegetation management thread.

 

[Deepgreen]

Now on that I have some sympathy, although a lot is self inflicted. Trees can fall in snow, wind and heavy rain.

I have had a saying for years that no tree should stand anywhere, where if it falls it can obstruct a running line. I include private land in this and the law should be changed accordingly. It is a safety issue.

Sadly, a lot of this is self inflicted. Since 1968 trees have been allowed to grow freely and the railways now have a major catch up operation on their hands, hampered at evey turn by misguided tree huggers.

I don't agree. You don't have to be a 'tree-hugger' to want trees in your garden. If all trees that could possibly fall onto the railway had to be removed, it would be a vast task, with huge legal ramifications and endless challenges in court. A change in the law to this end would simply never be passed. It would also be a never-ending task to maintain it that way (small trees growing to the point where they could obstruct the railway needing surveying, etc.), whereas pre-1968 there was a lot of assistance, at least on railway land, from line-side fires (which, by the way, would obviously be disastrous for today's signalling systems!). If that logic were to be extended then all trees in public spaces would have to go on the same basis that they could fall and cause injury. That would include all road, streets, parks, squares, etc. In fact the risk of injury from falling trees on the railway is hugely less in any one incident than on the roads, where a tree falling on a car will usually cause severe damage/injury.

 

[skyhigh]

Train drivers are supposed to live within 60 min walking distance of their depot so can make it in all weather

Absolute utter nonsense.

60 minute commute, not walk. And even that depends on company.

 

[Llanigraham]

Train drivers are supposed to live within 60 min walking distance of their depot so can make it in all weather, are they moving outside this once past their probationary period?

Really? I think you will find it is TRAVELLING time, not walking.

It is also interesting to note that on the day in question many bus operators in Mid Wales pulled their buses off the road and didn't run many services at all because it wasn't safe to run.

 

[alxndr]

Also when maintenance teams are cut to the bare minimum and a major weather incident occurs the one team can't be in 16 places at once clearing snow and ice from points, removing trees etc. Inevitably they're concentrated on the core routes.

I've just checked both my 1933 GWR rulebook and 1950 BR rulebook and both include:

Rule 212 - To summon men in an emergency
Each Inspector of Permanent-way or of Works must have a register of the names and addresses of all men under his control, so that in case of accident he may summon them immediately to assist as required. Should any obstruction be caused by snow, frost, slips, or other sudden emergency, he must immediately collect the men required.

These days no such rule exists, and even if it did, with people living much further from their places of work than they used to they may not be able to make it in to work in poor road conditions. The size of a modern maintenance patch also causes problems. I've known three vans to be crashed in snow and at least another three get stuck.

Where I used to work the roads were very poorly gritted and traffic came to a standstill at the slightest bit of snow. Despite almost everyone living within a 3 mile radius many people could not get into work and we came to an agreement that the outgoing shift would drop the team off as near as practicable to their houses, and then meet the incoming shift at a mutually convenient location to handover on the roadside. They could have walked from home, but walking isn't particularly fast on an icy pavement.

 

[Runningaround]

Never heard of a 60 minute walking distance requirement before? 60 minute commute yes, walk no.

When asked at interview ''how will you get to work if your car breaks down'' then how can you make your shift? If you move an hours drive away off main roads you have put yourself at a high risk of missing shifts in areas where public transport doesn't exist.
The onus should be on railway employees to make getting into work a high priority.
If you are missing trains due to weather or car issues then you need to remove the problem either live within cycling or walking distance.

 

[zwk500]

When asked at interview ''how will you get to work if your car breaks down'' then how can you make your shift? If you move an hours drive away off main roads you have put yourself at a high risk of missing shifts in areas where public transport doesn't exist.
The onus should be on railway employees to make getting into work a high priority.
If you are missing trains due to weather or car issues then you need to remove the problem either live within cycling or walking distance.

So every train driver should be required to live within 5-10 miles of their depot for a once a year weather event? The answer to 'what happens if your car breaks down?' is I'll take proper care of it to reduce the risk of that happening to an acceptable level.

 

[Darandio]

When asked at interview ''how will you get to work if your car breaks down'' then how can you make your shift? If you move an hours drive away off main roads you have put yourself at a high risk of missing shifts in areas where public transport doesn't exist.
The onus should be on railway employees to make getting into work a high priority.
If you are missing trains due to weather or car issues then you need to remove the problem either live within cycling or walking distance.

It would be easier to admit you'd made it all up.

 

[L401CJF]

When asked at interview ''how will you get to work if your car breaks down'' then how can you make your shift? If you move an hours drive away off main roads you have put yourself at a high risk of missing shifts in areas where public transport doesn't exist.
The onus should be on railway employees to make getting into work a high priority.
If you are missing trains due to weather or car issues then you need to remove the problem either live within cycling or walking distance.

When asked in the interview how I would get to work if my car breaks down, I reply with using our second car..

The weather is never severe enough to not be able to drive to work in my area. If for whatever reason I had no car, I would ask a relative or book a taxi.

In the last 10 years (Including my previous job where I also had to drive to work) I have never been late or missed a shift due to weather/car problems. I have been late twice, once due to getting a flat tyre on the way to work which is completely unavoidable, and once because mid journey there was a suicide attempt on the motorway. This was when I was working on the buses, no buses cancelled as they got spare drivers to cover until I got in.

A while ago my car went to the garage for a week for various repairs, I resorted to using public transport and organised mutual shift swops well in advance so I wasn't in to early/late for the bus. Commute took much longer than driving, but again never I was never late.

"The onus is on railway employees to make getting to work a priority" - you say this as if people deliberately get snowed in, or break their cars. Its not just limited to railway employees, everybody should make it a priority to get to work on time. 99% of the time people manage it. In the real world things will go wrong from time to time.

I live 12 minutes drive from work. To walk it would take over 2 hours according to Google maps. By your logic only people who live within a 2 or 3 mile radius of a depot should be employed!

I have colleagues who live closer to the 60 minute mark, they usually arrive 30 odd minutes early to allow for problems en route. It's a none problem really.

 

[Llanigraham]

Network Rail have a 60 minute travelling time limit for their signallers, and in the 10 years I was in my Box I only failed to get in once, and that was due to me being involved in a road accident on the way in. What

When it did snow here in Mid Wales I managed it even when on one occasion my relief who lived closer failed to get in and the line had to be shut. I booked myself into a hotel locally for the day and NR paid my bill (eventually!).

As above we always changed shifts at 0530/1730 instead of the official time 30 minutes later so we could allow for any delays.

 

[Runningaround]

It would be easier to admit you'd made it all up.

Specifically, we are looking for people who:

• Understand what our customers want and put customer service first
• Always provide a safe working environment for our customers and staff
• Are proud to wear their uniform and look smart every day
• Remain motivated and enthusiastic to perform all aspects of their role to a high standard
• Are conscientious and make timely decisions based on their knowledge of rules and procedures
• Go above and beyond their normal working duties during times of disruption
• Live within one hours drive of Crewe train station

So if your car is unavailable you will need to be within 60 mins walking or cycling distance and as this thread is in an area where public transport is unavailable at times of early and late shifts, how are you getting into work?