Train waiting outside East Croydon?

[Sunset route]

Are Closing up signals what would be called draw ups on the Underground, in any case can you please explain what they are for those of us unaware. Cheers.

Draw ups on the underground are speed controlled signals which will not clear until the train is doing less than a specified speed, they ensure that the train does not reach the signal ahead travelling quickly enough to do damage if it spads that signal.

The ones at East Croydon work with an automatic restrictive aspect from red once the berth track circuit has been occupied for a pre-determined time.

Some term lifters straight from Railway Group Standards.

Closing-Up Signal

A Signal that is provided to optimise Headways and/or to provide earlier clearance of junctions on the Approach To stations. It may or may not form part of the normal Aspect Sequence.

Overlap (OL)

The distance beyond a Stop Signal that must be clear, and where necessary Locked, before the Stop Signal preceding the Stop Signal in question can display a Proceed Aspect.

Reduced Overlap

An Overlap that is shorter than the minimum permitted length of a Full Overlap, where the permitted approach speed is below a specified level which still allows an unrestricted approach to a Signal at danger.

Restricted Overlap (ROL)

An Overlap that is shorter than the minimum permitted length of a Full Overlap, which is available only when the preceding Signal is subject to Approach Control by selection of a Warning Class Route.

 

[Tio Terry]

I seem to remember something from the dim and distant past about sideswipes at East Croydon and additional controls being added to prevent a recurrence, is that likely to anything to do with this?

 

[Sunset route]

I seem to remember something from the dim and distant past about sideswipes at East Croydon and additional controls being added to prevent a recurrence, is that likely to anything to do with this?

I’ve been at TBASC. for around 20yrs and this happened before my time, something about a railair and a cig/vep/big getting a little too close and one of them losing their door handles (could of possibly been T1608 points being closer to T1605 points with an up and down parallel move onto plat 6 and out of plat 5 at the same time, results door handles stripped off and the points being moved closer to the station, which turn creates the problem of departing plat 5 can’t arrive in plat 4 at the same time), but it’s gone into folklore now.

But as a separate issue most of the extra wiggly routes where the speed differential was too great got permanently restricted OOU on the interlocking.

 

[Sunset route]

I seem to remember something from the dim and distant past about sideswipes at East Croydon and additional controls being added to prevent a recurrence, is that likely to anything to do with this?

I’ve been at TBASC. for around 20yrs and this happened before my time, something about a railair and a cig/vep/big getting a little too close and one of them losing their door handles (could of been T1608 points being closer to T1605 points with an up and down parallel move onto plat 6 and out of plat 5 at the same time, results door handles stripped off and the points being moved closer to the station, which turn creates the problem of departing plat 5 can’t arrive in plat 4 at the same time), but it’s gone into folklore now.

But as a separate issue most of the extra wiggly routes where the speed differential was too great got permanently restricted OOU on the interlocking.

 

[Tio Terry]

I’ve been at TBASC. for around 20yrs and this happened before my time, something about a railair and a cig/vep/big getting a little too close and one of them losing their door handles (could of possibly been T1608 points being closer to T1605 points with an up and down parallel move onto plat 6 and out of plat 5 at the same time, results door handles stripped off and the points being moved closer to the station, which turn creates the problem of departing plat 5 can’t arrive in plat 4 at the same time), but it’s gone into folklore now.

But as a separate issue most of the extra wiggly routes where the speed differential was too great got permanently restricted OOU on the interlocking.

If my memory serves me well it would have been around 1983/4/5.

 

[Belperpete]

Are Closing up signals what would be called draw ups on the Underground, in any case can you please explain what they are for those of us unaware. Cheers.

Draw ups on the underground are speed controlled signals which will not clear until the train is doing less than a specified speed, they ensure that the train does not reach the signal ahead travelling quickly enough to do damage if it spads that signal.

Closing-up signals are generally provided at the entrance-end of a platform. They allow a second train to approach the platform while the first train is departing. Provided the first train keeps moving, the second train shouldn't have to stop at the closing-up signal.

Like normal signals, closing-up signals require an overlap beyond it that has to be clear before a train is allowed to run up to the closing-up signal. In some cases this overlap is mid-platform, meaning the second train can be signalled toward the closing-up signal while the rear of the first train is still leaving the platform. I understand this is common practice on LT. Where the overlap is at the far-end of the platform, then the second train can't approach until the rear of the first train has cleared the whole platform. The closing-up signal still gives an advantage in this latter case, as without it the second train would be held until the rear of the first train has cleared not just the platform, but also the overlap beyond the platform-end starting signal.

 

[IKB]

I tend to use all down East Grinstead Line trains down 6 all other traffic down 5 apart from the Reigates which catch the 2Jxx London Bridge to Caterhams up at East Croydon. When I use platform 6 for non East Grinstead Line traffic where I can I use the 1st (new crossover) before South Croydon station which is 40mph and no restrictions on the signalling as apposed to the original crossover at South Croydon Junction which is 20mph and with an approach restriction from red on it.

Interesting you mention that 40mph crossover at South Croydon. Whenever I've done a non-stop service down the slow at South Croydon over the old 20mph crossover I've always wondered why more use isn't made of that one before the station. It certainly nicks a minute or so off of the journey when you're running late. Many of your colleagues don't seem to use it. Understandable if there is a conflicting movement, but most of the time you come into the down slow platform and the route over the junction is set (a curve in the line and a row of overhanging tress prevents you from actually seeing when the signal changes from red to proceed).

 

[387star]

There's an older thread that said that 40 crossover is more restrictive than the 20 with regards signalling as well as the 20 requiring you to cross over the grinstead leads and merge in at the same time

It was said the 40 was put in relatively recently financed by Overground

The approach control on the route T131 to T135 signals via 1626 points (the northern set) is so restrictive that it makes using that route in preference to T137 to T143 via 1629 & 1630 points (the southern end) totally useless even though the points (1626) are 20mph faster. It only good for a get out of jail free card when things have gone wrong. It was paid for by the ELL project and even though I attended meetings with then, I never really understood the logic of providing it, especially and it ruined the flexibility of South Croydon interlocking.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/south-croydon-crossovers.136977/

 

[387star]

Not quite sure why it is so restrictive given the line speeds through east croydon are 45 and the down slow was reduced to 50 not long back

 

[IKB]

There's an older thread that said that 40 crossover is more restrictive than the 20 with regards signalling as well as the 20 requiring you to cross over the grinstead leads and merge in at the same time

It was said the 40 was put in relatively recently financed by Overground

The approach control on the route T131 to T135 signals via 1626 points (the northern set) is so restrictive that it makes using that route in preference to T137 to T143 via 1629 & 1630 points (the southern end) totally useless even though the points (1626) are 20mph faster. It only good for a get out of jail free card when things have gone wrong. It was paid for by the ELL project and even though I attended meetings with then, I never really understood the logic of providing it, especially and it ruined the flexibility of South Croydon interlocking.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/south-croydon-crossovers.136977/

Noted, thanks, I had missed that.

 

[Sunset route]

There's an older thread that said that 40 crossover is more restrictive than the 20 with regards signalling as well as the 20 requiring you to cross over the grinstead leads and merge in at the same time

It was said the 40 was put in relatively recently financed by Overground

The approach control on the route T131 to T135 signals via 1626 points (the northern set) is so restrictive that it makes using that route in preference to T137 to T143 via 1629 & 1630 points (the southern end) totally useless even though the points (1626) are 20mph faster. It only good for a get out of jail free card when things have gone wrong. It was paid for by the ELL project and even though I attended meetings with then, I never really understood the logic of providing it, especially and it ruined the flexibility of South Croydon interlocking.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/south-croydon-crossovers.136977/

Not quite sure why it is so restrictive given the line speeds through east croydon are 45 and the down slow was reduced to 50 not long back

The new crossover when installed was as restrictive as the crossover at South Croydon Junction ie approached controlled from red. But a good few years back now they reduced the line speed on the down slow and removed the approach control restriction over the new crossover.

It’s not used much as many staff prefer to leave as many controlled signals in auto working as they can to reduce workload including platform 6 / down slow line.