Trainline app storing a railcard without the user's knowledge

[30907]

I'd settle the court case first. Then, making it easy to sell invalid tickets to people who need the zoom function sounds like disability discrimination, so you may have a case against trainline that might recover your losses.

But even using the zoom function, all the screenshots the OP has shown include a railcard icon at the very least.
So the only information missing is the type of railcard, which makes no difference to the discounted fare (it may affect whether a discount is applied, though). I cannot see that there is any sense in which the OP could claim discrimination - nor, more importantly, that they have been misled.

 

[Dai Corner]

It would be interesting to a screenshot / photo of the actual ticket, as presented to the revenue inspector.

 

[Cdd89]

Can trainline be expected to ensure that their app works in all possible circumstances on all possible devices?

In my opinion, the answer to that is no. You could then argue that well I want to access the website on a Windows 95 device. Should they accommodate that?

I doubt you would be able to access Trainline’s website using a web browser running on Windows 95, so I’m not sure that’s a great comparison.

If Trainline’s app can’t work well enough on an iPhone 8 in zoomed resolution, then they should not be supporting that configuration.

I do think there should be more warning that a discounted ticket is being purchased that needs extra ID. Booking portals that save railcards should not assume that a user using the app later even knows what a railcard is - people play around with apps and forget; the text should be explicit, eg “only valid with xyz railcard” displayed prominently on the payment page.

 

[londonteacher]

I doubt you would be able to access Trainline’s website using a web browser running on Windows 95, so I’m not sure that’s a great comparison.

If Trainline’s app can’t work well enough on an iPhone 8 in zoomed resolution, then they should not be supporting that configuration.

I do think there should be more warning that a discounted ticket is being purchased that needs extra ID. Booking portals that save railcards should not assume that a user using the app later even knows what a railcard is - people play around with apps and forget; the text should be explicit, eg “only valid with xyz railcard” displayed prominently on the payment page.

My point was more that should older devices be supported? An iPhone 8 was released in 2017 so is not the most recent device - luckily though iOS 14 is still compatible for now.

On an iPhone using the trainline website when zoomed in is this still an issue?

I agree though that there should be more warning for purchasing a railcard ticket.

Then, making it easy to sell invalid tickets to people who need the zoom function sounds like disability discrimination, so you may have a case against trainline that might recover your losses.

What a load of rubbish! There is plenty of warning as can be seen in the OP's screenshots and as @skyhigh shows even on the payment page, 1 railcard is clear. In order to purchase you have to scroll past this so you would definitely see it.

There are too many occurrences (at least mentioned on this forum) of people purchasing a ticket for which they do not have a valid railcard (most often by accident although I am sure this is not always the case) and then when they get caught out they feel hard done by. Check things before traveling!

 

[Cdd89]

On an iPhone using the trainline website when zoomed in is this still an issue?

Looking at the mobile site, I don’t see how it could (there aren’t overlapping elements), and based on a bit of testing nor does it appear to save railcard choices in the way the app does. Saving railcards is the root of all this trouble, and ties into other discussions about people travelling on railcards they didn’t realise expired recently.

If you try to buy a groupsave ticket via the app, the warning is displayed every time and much more prominently. Would the average person know that “annual gold card discount applied” on the final payment page means they need to have special documentation to travel, or would they just be pleased they’re getting a discount?

 

[londonteacher]

Looking at the mobile site, I don’t see how it could (there aren’t overlapping elements), and based on a bit of testing nor does it appear to save railcard choices in the way the app does. Saving railcards is the root of all this trouble, and ties into other discussions about people travelling on railcards they didn’t realise expired recently.

That makes sense - thanks for checking.

As the app will most likely be used with regular customers storing a railcard should not be too much of an issue. Ultimately this still falls down to customer responsibility.

 

[robbeech]

If you’ve frequented the forum for a while you’ll know that some users are more passenger focussed than others, and I like to think I fall firmly in the fair to all category with an emphasis on passengers rights.

That said, I don’t see as you have many here. Each price on the list as you scroll down is greyed out and the railcard discounted price put in its place. The railcard icon is also present.
Add this to :

*Railcard number and (when scrolled) type on the Home Screen

*Railcard type message at the top of the next screen

*Railcard numbers on the payment screen.

*Railcard discount shown on the ticket itself.

....and you’ll find you don’t have a lot to argue about.

You’re not obliged to use the app, or any app to purchase a ticket. GA do not require this so someone unfamiliar with the app is more than welcome to use the other methods to purchase a ticket such as a ticket machine or a ticket office. Where none are available then a purchase on board or at the destination is permitted.

The bottom line is, however you managed it you’ve purchased a ticket you do not have a valid railcard for, and you’ve travelled on a train and attempted to use that ticket to do so. This is against the rules and GA have every right to take steps to penalise you as the passenger for this. If your current exit strategy is £156.50 then you are incredibly lucky and you should jump at this chance and clear the matter up at your earliest convenience.

Trying to deal with a 3rd party retailer, the largest one at that for this matter will be pointless but I can see you are determined to make them pay for your mistake so I wish you well in that.

A little further advice, Trainline, for at least 2 years used to charge 16-25 railcard holders up to 60% more than none railcard holders on selected flows that crossed over the morning time limit due to a bug. They also allowed you to generate any itinerary with shared routing points so you could travel a long distance for the price of a 1 stop ticket, this lasted several months. Nothing came of this because there is nobody to stop them doing what they want. If this sort of thing can go on, I’d suggest it’s unlikely you’ll get actual money from them because they haven’t provided a 6th opportunity to tell you your ticket holds a railcard discount.

 

[alistairlees]

If you’ve frequented the forum for a while you’ll know that some users are more passenger focussed than others, and I like to think I fall firmly in the fair to all category with an emphasis on passengers rights.

That said, I don’t see as you have many here. Each price on the list as you scroll down is greyed out and the railcard discounted price put in its place. The railcard icon is also present.
Add this to :

*Railcard number and (when scrolled) type on the Home Screen

*Railcard type message at the top of the next screen

*Railcard numbers on the payment screen.

*Railcard discount shown on the ticket itself.

....and you’ll find you don’t have a lot to argue about.

You’re not obliged to use the app, or any app to purchase a ticket. GA do not require this so someone unfamiliar with the app is more than welcome to use the other methods to purchase a ticket such as a ticket machine or a ticket office. Where none are available then a purchase on board or at the destination is permitted.

The bottom line is, however you managed it you’ve purchased a ticket you do not have a valid railcard for, and you’ve travelled on a train and attempted to use that ticket to do so. This is against the rules and GA have every right to take steps to penalise you as the passenger for this. If your current exit strategy is £156.50 then you are incredibly lucky and you should jump at this chance and clear the matter up at your earliest convenience.

Trying to deal with a 3rd party retailer, the largest one at that for this matter will be pointless but I can see you are determined to make them pay for your mistake so I wish you well in that.

A little further advice, Trainline, for at least 2 years used to charge 16-25 railcard holders up to 60% more than none railcard holders on selected flows that crossed over the morning time limit due to a bug. They also allowed you to generate any itinerary with shared routing points so you could travel a long distance for the price of a 1 stop ticket, this lasted several months. Nothing came of this because there is nobody to stop them doing what they want. If this sort of thing can go on, I’d suggest it’s unlikely you’ll get actual money from them because they haven’t provided a 6th opportunity to tell you your ticket holds a railcard discount.

We will get off topic, but the issues that you level at independent retailers are, at best, very biased, and, at worst, plain wrong. Perhaps it should be the subject of a separate thread?

However, I do agree with you that the OP should settle for £156.50 as rapidly as possible. They can then decide whether to pursue a claim or not.

 

[skyhigh]

There are two points to prove, the Officers statement just about meets the threshold, but her grasp of the English language is poor and a damming indictment to the professional standard of a law enforcement department such is Revenue Protection.

Sadly, GA nor the court will be worried about that.

I won't take this to court because even with the glaring errors (the statement of facts isn't complete on the court declaration part of the SJPN) I don't want to risk a criminal record over something so so trivial.

They don't have to provide a statement of facts and a witness statement with the SJPN. One or the other is sufficient. Why should the spelling and grammar of the inspector matter?

For the charge, what is written? I'm assuming it basically says what I quoted earlier as Byelaw 18. They also have the option of prosecuting under the Regulation of Railways act. To succeed at that, they'd need to prove your intent, so it's a more difficult prosecution. It's worth checking what they're actually prosecuting you under.

Whatever you choose to do, don't go past the deadline on the SJPN without responding to it (if you don't come to an agreement with GA by then.)

 

[robbeech]

We will get off topic, but the issues that you level at independent retailers are, at best, very biased, and, at worst, plain wrong. Perhaps it should be the subject of a separate thread?

However, I do agree with you that the OP should settle for £156.50 as rapidly as possible. They can then decide whether to pursue a claim or not.

My point is simply stating that Trainline are a 3rd party retailer, and a big one. One that has fallen foul of regulation on more than one occasion, and falls foul of acceptable customer service on a daily basis, especially when things ‘go wrong’.

I’m comparing them to other retailers (toc based or other 3rd party ones) but at the same time I think it’s important to note that if the passenger had used GA as a retailer you could see their point a little more, despite the fact that for all intents and purposes it’s unrelated.

My retailer of choice is a third party one. Who provide the best service before during and after sales, so there is no link between the issue and the type of retailer, just the link between issues (which are tenuous at best in this case imo) and that particular retailer.

 

[Steve Turner]

But even using the zoom function, all the screenshots the OP has shown include a railcard icon at the very least.
So the only information missing is the type of railcard, which makes no difference to the discounted fare (it may affect whether a discount is applied, though). I cannot see that there is any sense in which the OP could claim discrimination - nor, more importantly, that they have been misled.

Its called a False Floor, the user believes that they are at the bottom of the screen because the auto scroll takes them there, however they are not and they need to manually scroll further to reach the truth bottom of the screen.

If you’ve frequented the forum for a while you’ll know that some users are more passenger focussed than others, and I like to think I fall firmly in the fair to all category with an emphasis on passengers rights.

That said, I don’t see as you have many here. Each price on the list as you scroll down is greyed out and the railcard discounted price put in its place. The railcard icon is also present.
Add this to :

*Railcard number and (when scrolled) type on the Home Screen

*Railcard type message at the top of the next screen

*Railcard numbers on the payment screen.

*Railcard discount shown on the ticket itself.

....and you’ll find you don’t have a lot to argue about.

You’re not obliged to use the app, or any app to purchase a ticket. GA do not require this so someone unfamiliar with the app is more than welcome to use the other methods to purchase a ticket such as a ticket machine or a ticket office. Where none are available then a purchase on board or at the destination is permitted.

The bottom line is, however you managed it you’ve purchased a ticket you do not have a valid railcard for, and you’ve travelled on a train and attempted to use that ticket to do so. This is against the rules and GA have every right to take steps to penalise you as the passenger for this. If your current exit strategy is £156.50 then you are incredibly lucky and you should jump at this chance and clear the matter up at your earliest convenience.

Trying to deal with a 3rd party retailer, the largest one at that for this matter will be pointless but I can see you are determined to make them pay for your mistake so I wish you well in that.

A little further advice, Trainline, for at least 2 years used to charge 16-25 railcard holders up to 60% more than none railcard holders on selected flows that crossed over the morning time limit due to a bug. They also allowed you to generate any itinerary with shared routing points so you could travel a long distance for the price of a 1 stop ticket, this lasted several months. Nothing came of this because there is nobody to stop them doing what they want. If this sort of thing can go on, I’d suggest it’s unlikely you’ll get actual money from them because they haven’t provided a 6th opportunity to tell you your ticket holds a railcard discount.

The point I wish to make and am frankly astonished how long it has taken to arrive at after establishing other pit falls in the app, is that there should be two extra screens presented to the consumer before they are asked to make payment:

There is a rail card applied to this booking


Annual Gold Card

(Card number)


Is this correct YES or NO?


Once YES is selected, the next screen will say:


Are you sure YES or NO?


Once YES is selected then the app takes the consumer to the payment page. Naturally any errors at the booking stage are boldly highlighted to the consumer and affording them the option, several times, to rectify it, thus protecting them from potential prosecution. I have not been protected and as a result I am under threat of prosecution.


This is not ground-breaking consumer protection. Whatsapp the social media app changed one its message protection features some years ago. Previously all the user had to do was left swipe and the option to delete or archive was displayed. Select delete and that message was permanently deleted. The very obvious issue is that the delete or archive buttons were next to each other, similar to Trainline’s ‘Find times and prices’ and ‘Add railcard’ buttons.


Now when the user left swipes they are presented with 2 options, More and Archive. Archive will automatically put the message in the archive box, from which it is easily retrievable. If More is selected, then a menu is displayed. Delete Chat is on this menu and is highlighted in RED and not faded like Trainline’s app. If Delete is selected, then another screen is displayed which again enforces the user to confirm their decision, again delete is highlighted in RED.

Whatsapp are customer focused, Trainline either are not or behind the times of Consumer Protection. I will laugh if this changes within the year and will take full credit for it from my report to them!!!

Thanks for all your replies. I will look to make the £156.50 payment but currently cannot because the case number on the SJPN is incorrect and missing a digit. Also the Statement of Facts is incomplete and doesn't detail Day/Date/Time/Place. Sure it's on the charge wording, but we are talking about a professional law enforcement agent here are we not, so these week 1 day 1 mistakes should not occur.

The MG11 is truly shocking, so with all the above, GA are making a lot more mistakes that I every did and this is their day job!!!

 

[robbeech]

Please feel free to contact them. But do not hold your breath of so much as a reply let alone a resolution. Nobody is arguing they’re customer focused, although generally when a telephone is on is normal settings the app is very intuitive and easy to use.

The fact is, regardless of why, you broke the law and have been provided with a very reasonable way of dealing with it.
My car is limited to 155mph instead of 70mph. If I were to drive it at >70mph and was stopped for speeding I would not complain at the police for the manufacturer of my car allowing it to happen, nor would I get anywhere with the manufacturer if I tried to get them to pay my speeding fine for making a car capable of breaking the law, even if the speedometer was difficult to read.

 

[Steve Turner]

Please feel free to contact them. But do not hold your breath of so much as a reply let alone a resolution. Nobody is arguing they’re customer focused, although generally when a telephone is on is normal settings the app is very intuitive and easy to use.

The fact is, regardless of why, you broke the law and have been provided with a very reasonable way of dealing with it.
My car is limited to 155mph instead of 70mph. If I were to drive it at >70mph and was stopped for speeding I would not complain at the police for the manufacturer of my car allowing it to happen, nor would I get anywhere with the manufacturer if I tried to get them to pay my speeding fine for making a car capable of breaking the law, even if the speedometer was difficult to read.

This forum is like an extension of FB

I've got a better one.....my gym has a laser light card reader to gain entry, it works when you angle the card at exactly the right degree. It then doesn't work for the rest of the week, but might work on a Sunday, or maybe next Tuesday.

If the airline boarding pass readers at the the airport I used to work at operated with the same level of inefficiency, the queue to get in would be outside the building!!!

The point is, when you mention it to the gym, some say its my fault and give me a lesson in how to angle the card. They are very good at this lesson because the deliver it a lot of times during their shift oddly enough. Other shrug their shoulders and acknowledge that the reader is not fit for purpose.

The reader is still there and no doubt always will be....................

 

[robbeech]

It’s fine to consider the Trainline app unfit for purpose. Thankfully it’s not mandatory to use it.

If the issue was with a TVM at the station I think you’d have a more appropriate justification for being annoyed.

 

[Snow1964]

Looking at the mobile site, I don’t see how it could (there aren’t overlapping elements), and based on a bit of testing nor does it appear to save railcard choices in the way the app does. Saving railcards is the root of all this trouble, and ties into other discussions about people travelling on railcards they didn’t realise expired recently.

If you try to buy a groupsave ticket via the app, the warning is displayed every time and much more prominently. Would the average person know that “annual gold card discount applied” on the final payment page means they need to have special documentation to travel, or would they just be pleased they’re getting a discount?

I understand the saving of railcards, but is the problem the app has added a railcard to a ticket automatically, but the ticket is dated beyond the expiry of a railcard. Why would it allow you to do this without suggesting a renewal, or ignoring any expired railcard

Or is there not a railcard, but somehow one has been accidentally added to discount the ticket.

 

[robbeech]

I think in this case it is the latter.

 

[londonteacher]

I understand the saving of railcards, but is the problem the app has added a railcard to a ticket automatically, but the ticket is dated beyond the expiry of a railcard. Why would it allow you to do this without suggesting a renewal, or ignoring any expired railcard

Or is there not a railcard, but somehow one has been accidentally added to discount the ticket.

You do not need to add an expiry date although that would be useful.

This is a case of the OP accidentally adding a discount but not checking before purchase or before travel where it could still have been changed.

 

[SteveM70]

You do not need to add an expiry date although that would be useful.

If you were buying a ticket for immediate use then yes, possibly. But buying in advance it becomes irrelevant

 

[londonteacher]

If you were buying a ticket for immediate use then yes, possibly. But buying in advance it becomes irrelevant

Not necessarily. If you tried to buy a ticket for a month down the line and your railcard expired before then it could warn you!

 

[skyhigh]

I will look to make the £156.50 payment but currently cannot because the case number on the SJPN is incorrect and missing a digit.

Are you sure the settlement is still on the table? I'm not sure that the reference number on the SJPN is what you need to pay online? (Assuming you're trying to pay on the IRCAS website.)

 

[30907]

I think you are now suggesting that you accidentally selected Railcard discount; the App then chose Gold Card without your intervention?
You originally suggested (as per thecthread title) that the GC discount had been applied totally without your knowledge - are you withdrawing that?

The point I wish to make and am frankly astonished how long it has taken to arrive at after establishing other pit falls in the app, is that there should be two extra screens presented to the consumer before they are asked to make payment:

An interesting suggestion which you have indeed taken some time to make.

Without a screenshot of the payment screen (which another poster requested), I don't know how much additional protection this provides - I can only say that I have during lockdown become much more familiar with online purchases, and I don't recall being asked to do more than confirm that I wish to proceed.

 

[Cdd89]

I think you are now suggesting that you accidentally selected Railcard discount; the App then chose Gold Card without your intervention?
You originally suggested (as per thecthread title) that the GC discount had been applied totally without your knowledge - are you withdrawing that?

The discount could have been added without the OP's knowledge, even without a failure of the App. For example, if somebody else was using their device.

 

[londonteacher]

The discount could have been added without the OP's knowledge, even without a failure of the App. For example, if somebody else was using their device.

Then that is still the OP's responsibility. Their phone, their problem.

We can't keep finding excuses when quite clearly the OP didn't take enough care when booking.

 

[ashkeba]

But even using the zoom function, all the screenshots the OP has shown include a railcard icon at the very least.

That icon is meant to be a railcard? It looks like a ticket to me, so "ticket 1" is confirming what I am buying...

So the only information missing is the type of railcard, which makes no difference to the discounted fare (it may affect whether a discount is applied, though). I cannot see that there is any sense in which the OP could claim discrimination - nor, more importantly, that they have been misled.

Well, I think it should ask for explicit confirmation that I still hold a particular railcard. And selecting a wrong railcard not held could make the ticket invalid also, could it not?

And showing less necessary detail to visually impaired people seems almost a definition of discrimination, so I disagree about the existing of a sense.

 

[jumble]

Try post #14 above.

This does not show the final payment screen as in post 3 where it tells the OP what discount is or is not being applied and the OP seems reluctant to share this with us
In my view this is very simple as if this page mentions gold card discount then everything else is irrelevant as even if a mistake has been made by the app elsewhere it has not disadvantaged the OP in any way and would be of no help to the OP whatsoever in court
I would hope that the OP has not been foolish enough as to tell GA about their irrelevant views about staff competency as this would probably not make GA very keen to take a lenient view but much more likely to push to court to get the problem resolved

 

[Dai Corner]

This does not show the final payment screen as in post 3 where it tells the OP what discount is or is not being applied
In my view it this page mentions gold card then everything else is irrelevant as even if a mistake has been made by the app elsewhere it has not disadvantaged the OP in any way and would be of no help to the OP whatsoever in court

I'd also like to know how the revenue inspector ascertained that the ticket was only valid with a Railcard. Did he read some obscure wording on it, use his knowledge of the fares or have a device to read a barcode, magnetic strip or similar?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It remains on my screen. You can see from my screenshot that I have scrolled down.

Surely this becomes an argument as to how far back should devices be supported? You have already said that the zoom was on which makes it a user modification to the device. Can trainline be expected to ensure that their app works in all possible circumstances on all possible devices?

In my opinion, the answer to that is no. You could then argue that well I want to access the website on a Windows 95 device. Should they accommodate that?

If an app is not supported on a given OS configuration, the app should fail to run and advise you of why, not operate in a "random" degraded manner. It could perhaps offer the option to continue anyway at your own risk.

This is slightly more forgivable on Android as there are so many variants that they can't test them all. But that can be expected of iPhones as it is a much simpler lineage.

 

[talltim]

It remains on my screen. You can see from my screenshot that I have scrolled down.

Surely this becomes an argument as to how far back should devices be supported? You have already said that the zoom was on which makes it a user modification to the device. Can trainline be expected to ensure that their app works in all possible circumstances on all possible devices?

In my opinion, the answer to that is no. You could then argue that well I want to access the website on a Windows 95 device. Should they accommodate that?

To answer this question specifically, I would say they should support all iOS phone/ipads that can run the latest iOS version (ie not watches!)

Ive had issue with other responsive websites on an first generation iphone SE, e.g. on lego.com the cookies warning page wouldn't let me scroll down enough to click on OK!

 

[87 027]

The OP has said he has an iPhone 8. The latest version of iOS is supported on the iPhone 6S and above, and Apple’s track record since 2013 is to support phones for 5 or 6 major OS updates. So the iPhone 8 should get at least 1 further update and non-current operating system versions is something of a red herring in this case.

Nor would I consider use of the inbuilt accessibility functions to be a “user modification” of a device. I do agree that it’s poor app and website design not to check these sorts of things though.

 

[Haywain]

I'd also like to know how the revenue inspector ascertained that the ticket was only valid with a Railcard.

I would imagine he read the information printed on the ticket. There is, at the very least, a code on the ticket indicating that it has been issued with a railcard discount.