Trains advertised short of final destination e.g. to 'Ealing Broadway'

[berneyarms]

No more patronising than lying to passengers because of a patronising view that they are stupid. Actually, far less patronising than that.

It's a ridiculous practice, particularly with modern PIS where there is plenty of scope to say "get that train instead" in some form - IF that train isn't late/cancelled/full and standing, which anything out of Paddington all too often is. Not to mention that off peak tickets are valid to Oxford in the evening peak only on trains from Paddington that claim not to be going to Oxford.

It's not "lying" - it's a very simple method of directing longer distance passengers onto the faster service that exists and, as I said above, it clearly works - otherwise there would be huge numbers of reports of passengers on the wrong trains. And I don't believe that there are.

Only a complete pedant would get upset about something like that. It is getting one's knickers in a twist over nothing. There are far greater problems to get upset about.

I'm sure if the faster train was cancelled etc then a full PA announcement would be made in the station redirecting passengers if needed.

This has got to be one of the dafter discussions that I've read in all of my time here.

 

[6Gman]

It always worries me that the 1720 Crewe - Shrewsbury stopper (which then forms a HOWL service to Swansea and then goes forward to Cardiff) is advertised at Crewe as the 1720 to Cardiff Central. Not a sensible choice if you're heading to the Welsh capital.

(Or even Swansea!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It always worries me that the 1720 Crewe - Shrewsbury stopper (which then forms a HOWL service to Swansea and then goes forward to Cardiff) is advertised at Crewe as the 1720 to Cardiff Central. Not a sensible choice if you're heading to the Welsh capital.

(Or even Swansea!)

And if we hadn't been stupid and abolished train categorisation you'd have (times are made up)

1720 LOCAL - CARDIFF CENTRAL - ON TIME
1729 EXPRESS - CARDIFF CENTRAL - ON TIME

Which one would you pick? It'd at least raise the question.

 

[cholsey-choose]

It may be simple if you understand the system but I refuse to believe that you knew what it all meant when you first set foot in Japan.

So your answer isn't brilliantly convincing.

Just trying to remember the instructions I was given when I landed in Japan, which involved the train and the bus. Bus was horrendously confusing. Train basically amounted to "take the tokaido shinkansen (ie, tokyo-kyoto route), the nozomi named stopping pattern is the fastest, and when you get to kyoto get to this metro station". All major signage is in English and with the combo of train name and destination it was very simple. I was broadly informed about the system after reading my Lonely Planet on the plane.

Now ticketing on trains in Tokyo though was complex. There are two separate metro systems and national rail trains... all confusing.

Anecdotally, we've had visitors from the US both to our place in Japan and to the Thames Valley, and we've had more questions about how to get around in the UK (may be selection bias though).

 

[cholsey-choose]

It's not "lying" - it's a very simple method of directing longer distance passengers onto the faster service that exists and, as I said above, it clearly works - otherwise there would be huge numbers of reports of passengers on the wrong trains. And I don't believe that there are.

Hey hey hey, calm down. We can disagree about whether it's a good idea or not (I'm on the fence). But it is lying.

 

[berneyarms]

Hey hey hey, calm down. We can disagree about whether it's a good idea or not (I'm on the fence). But it is lying.

With respect I'm perfectly calm - I'm not the poster who is getting rather worked up about it and using somewhat emotive language like "lying", which suggests a malicious attempt to deceive.

Let's be realistic here - the practice is there for a very good reason as I outlined above, and as I said already it clearly works.

This is a non-issue.

There are far more important things to be worried about in life.

 

[jimm]

Just trying to remember the instructions I was given when I landed in Japan, which involved the train and the bus. Bus was horrendously confusing. Train basically amounted to "take the tokaido shinkansen (ie, tokyo-kyoto route), the nozomi named stopping pattern is the fastest, and when you get to kyoto get to this metro station". All major signage is in English and with the combo of train name and destination it was very simple. I was broadly informed about the system after reading my Lonely Planet on the plane.

Now ticketing on trains in Tokyo though was complex. There are two separate metro systems and national rail trains... all confusing.

Anecdotally, we've had visitors from the US both to our place in Japan and to the Thames Valley, and we've had more questions about how to get around in the UK (may be selection bias though).

So you'd read up a bit - not everyone does, do they? Especially if just doing a day trip, which is what very many of the overseas visitors travelling out from London to Oxford are doing. I haven't noticed lots of signs in Japanese at Paddington, though they do get a bit of assistance out in the Cotswolds at Moreton-in-Marsh station.

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/BY919D/tou...ted-into-japanese-moreton-in-marsh-BY919D.jpg

Honestly, do you think it is a good idea to 'tell people the truth' - so they find themselves stopping every five minutes all the way to Oxford and losing 45 minutes of their day out on the way? Which is what used to happen quite a lot.

Rather than adding all these layers of train numbers, route names, and all the rest, someone had a simple idea to address the problem, which actually works out on the ground in the real world in the Thames Valley.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

But before that, I was worried that one of the 'next trains to London' on the board might be a slow one, and I was in a bit of a rush so wanted to make sure I didn't get the stopping service.

That particular problem could presumably be easily solved, simply by labelling the board fastest trains to... instead of next trains to....

London Bridge used to have such a display in the days before the rebuild (I'm not sure whether it still does) and I often found it very useful.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The Cannon Street loop services (they are not circular as they begin and end at the same destination) are particularly annoying. There is no consistency as to how they are advertised online,at the station or on the train.

I did Maze Hill to Sidcup recently, a perfectly sensible journey on a direct train. At Maze Hill station it was listed as the service to Slade Green. At Plumstead station it was a service to Crayford. Only at Slade Green did it become a Cannon Street service. However on the train it was a service to Slade Green throughout , until it changed at Slade Green to be Cannon Street. Online was the only place where it was correctly advertised as a loop service.

Personally, I would have solved that particular problem by advertising those services as something like 'circular via Greenwich and Crayford'.

I think there is an additional issue on that particular route that the way those trains are advertised means people - even local people - won't realize that it's possible to use them to make some orbital journeys in SouthEast London (such as Abbey Wood to Sidcup) relatively easily, and I'm sure that must mean they are losing some potential passengers. Making it explicit that they are on circular routes ought to help with that.

More generally, I do agree with people that it is very confusing - and somewhat disconcerting - when you're on a train and the final destination that the audio PIS announces doesn't match what the display at the station originally said, or when the announced destination keeps changing as the train carries along its route. There have certainly been times in the past when that has left me wondering whether I'm on the correct train or not.

 

[cholsey-choose]

With respect I'm perfectly calm - I'm not the poster who is getting rather worked up about it and using somewhat emotive language like "lying", which suggests a malicious attempt to deceive.

Let's be realistic here - the practice is there for a very good reason as I outlined above, and as I said already it clearly works.

This is a non-issue.

There are far more important things to be worried about in life.

You may wish to think about whether your writing is communicating your serenity.

There are far more things to be worried about in life than almost anything discussed on these boards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That particular problem could presumably be easily solved, simply by labelling the board fastest trains to... instead of next trains to....



London Bridge used to have such a display in the days before the rebuild (I'm not sure whether it still does) and I often found it very useful.

Manc Pic only has that type of board, no regular one.

These are probably the best solution to people taking the stopping train by mistake.

 

[Ianno87]

Manc Pic only has that type of board, no regular one.

These are probably the best solution to people taking the stopping train by mistake.

There is a 'small' departure board listing all trains as you walk onto each platform in the main shed (but no large Euston-style one, which went in the early 2000s rebuild).

The London Bridge train listed (located above the entrance to former subway to the bottom of the old ramps to Platforms 1-6) I think went when the last of those platforms (1-3) closed back in August, so you no longer 'entered' there to access any platforms.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There is a 'small' departure board listing all trains as you walk onto each platform in the main shed (but no large Euston-style one, which went in the early 2000s rebuild).

The London Bridge train listed (located above the entrance to former subway to the bottom of the old ramps to Platforms 1-6) I think went when the last of those platforms (1-3) closed back in August, so you no longer 'entered' there to access any platforms.

There was also one on the old footbridge, which is the one I used most often - since it's where you would normally end up if you were changing trains at London Bridge. But of course that footbridge is now long since gone too.

 

[ComUtoR]

1720 LOCAL - CARDIFF CENTRAL - ON TIME
1729 EXPRESS - CARDIFF CENTRAL - ON TIME

Which one would you pick? It'd at least raise the question.

I still wouldn't have a clue which train to take. There is no information about arrival time at Cardiff or intermediate stations. As a passenger I would ask myself. Where am I going. What time is the next train there. When I need to know, I ask what time does it get there. Neither option provides that so its a little pointless for me.

 

[BurtonM]

I think that Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Piccadilly via Glossop services are an anomaly in this context.

Considering the (unique?) triangular nature of the Glossop end of the line (line is linear from Manchester to Dinting, where it then divides in two directions, trains usually go Dinting - Hadfield - Glossop - 'terminate/commence'- Hadfield - Dinting [using two of the 'triangle''s three sides), the issue is not speed, as there are no alternatives to Glossop services, but to prevent confusion. The line is operated in a circular manner, but is advertised to passengers as being linear to prevent people going to the wrong end of the line and back through their start point on the way to their destination. If the service was advertised as it operates then everything would be a Manchester Piccadilly service, albeit some would call at certain stations on more occasions than others - and at first glance one might not realise that.
Thus Glossop is considered the true end of the line, and Hadfield an intermediate stop.


The thing is, as all services serve Hadfield twice, the service is technically linear as opposed to circular, so this in turn makes you wonder why the services aren't considered linear. I imagine it is to leave place for contingencies in the track layout (it is possible to omit one out of Hadfield and Glossop, or to reverse the calling order should the need ever arise - Dinting is the junction point, with chords to both Hadfield and Glossop, and platforms on each chord).

 

[FGW_DID]

Stood with the wife on Oxford station yesterday morning (travelling to Paddington), 09:07 Ealing Broadway rolls in, so I say to wife, "Shall we jump on this one?"

She looks at me as if I'm daft and says, "Thats not for Paddington, it says Ealing Broadway!"

I asked if it had said London Paddington, would she have boarded?
"Most probably," came the reply.

I then told her it did actually go to Paddington but was the stopping service which, because of engineering work, took just shy of 2 hours!

Her response was basically stuff that, we'll wait for the next fast.

So we waited 20 minutes, caught an HST, which even with a 10 minute delay due to the aforementioned engineering work got in way before the stopper arrived!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

It's fine when dealing with one operator but not for instance at New Street or Euston where different companies and fares are involved.
The problem being of course we don't have a 'joined up' national railway operator so there is no standard practice anymore.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think that Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Piccadilly via Glossop services are an anomaly in this context.

Considering the (unique?) triangular nature of the Glossop end of the line (line is linear from Manchester to Dinting, where it then divides in two directions, trains usually go Dinting - Hadfield - Glossop - 'terminate/commence'- Hadfield - Dinting [using two of the 'triangle''s three sides), the issue is not speed, as there are no alternatives to Glossop services, but to prevent confusion. The line is operated in a circular manner, but is advertised to passengers as being linear to prevent people going to the wrong end of the line and back through their start point on the way to their destination. If the service was advertised as it operates then everything would be a Manchester Piccadilly service, albeit some would call at certain stations on more occasions than others - and at first glance one might not realise that.
Thus Glossop is considered the true end of the line, and Hadfield an intermediate stop.


The thing is, as all services serve Hadfield twice, the service is technically linear as opposed to circular, so this in turn makes you wonder why the services aren't considered linear. I imagine it is to leave place for contingencies in the track layout (it is possible to omit one out of Hadfield and Glossop, or to reverse the calling order should the need ever arise - Dinting is the junction point, with chords to both Hadfield and Glossop, and platforms on each chord).

Didn't the direction round the triangle change in the peaks a few years back? In effect the services ran one way round in the morning and the other way in the evening, though this may have been a way to increase frequency and avoid conflicts- indeed I hadn't realised this had changed. Services always used to be advertised as running to Hadfield via Glossop back then anyway.

 

[berneyarms]

Didn't the direction round the triangle change in the peaks a few years back? In effect the services ran one way round in the morning and the other way in the evening, though this may have been a way to increase frequency and avoid conflicts- indeed I hadn't realised this had changed. Services always used to be advertised as running to Hadfield via Glossop back then anyway.

You are quite right - trains operate direct to Hadfield first and then Glossop and then direct back to Manchester in the morning peak.

In the evening peak the reverse applies - direct to Glossop, then Hadfield and then back to Manchester.

https://be803fe5c416e39d38ae-aa2108...016-11/route-timetables/Northern24web1216.pdf

 

[Andyh82]

I witnessed an example of this yesterday in Leeds

A couple were waiting for a train to Halifax, the next train was the Brighouse train. In bounced a pacer displaying Huddersfield on the front. The couple didn't get on thinking it was a different service.

They were obviously quite nervous and worried they were about to get on a train fast to Penzance, and even when asking a member of the public for confirmation still weren't entirely sure if they should board or not. Only when the conductor appeared and they asked him did they feel confident to board, by which time the train was quite full and they were last to board.

 

[mervyn72]

At Kings Cross they now have the arrival time next to each station call which I think helps massively and should be rolled out nationwide. The Cambridge stopper is now advertised to Cambridge and Kings Lynn flashes 'via Cambridge'.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I witnessed an example of this yesterday.

A couple were waiting for a train to Halifax, the next train was the Brighouse train. In bounced a pacer displaying Huddersfield on the front. The couple didn't get on thinking it was a different service.

They were obviously quite nervous and worried they were about to get on a train fast to Penzance, and even when asking a member of the public for confirmation still weren't entirely sure if they should board or not. Only when the conductor appeared and they asked him did they feel confident to board, by which time the train was quite full and they were last to board.

Which station was this at? I thought that Leeds was the only place that service was advertised with a "false destination" in that direction. Ideally the false destinations would only be used when it will help rather than hinder the majority of passengers.

 

[Envy123]

At Kings Cross they now have the arrival time next to each station call which I think helps massively and should be rolled out nationwide. The Cambridge stopper is now advertised to Cambridge and Kings Lynn flashes 'via Cambridge'.

I've been to Euston quite recently and the arrival times next to each station call are also there.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

I also think that apart from train-specific numbers, line numbers would be an improvement. GTR already has ‘route identities’, as shown here http://www.southernrailway.com/download/35735.7/network-map-gtr-all-routes/ but they are not really advertised. Some routes are also not too clear, e.g. it is not easy to know where an SN6 or an SN3 (why don’t divide it into SN31, SN32 etc.?) service is going to. Look at this map of train services in the German state of North Rhine-Westphalia and you see it is quite easy to see where a train is going to and which will presumably be faster than another: http://busse-und-bahnen.nrw.de/file...ng/ITF_SPNV/Regionalverkehrsplan_NRW_2017.pdf These numbers are generally known to the public and apart from the DB app, these numbers are also shown everywhere.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I also think that apart from train-specific numbers, line numbers would be an improvement.

Well, that's progress for you. Its what used to exist on the slammers on the Southern region. 4 was fast Brighton; 14 semi fast; 34 was a stopper. Simple and effective, it worked in the days before we had computers. But then university-educated people came along and made everything complicated so no one understood it.

 

[GW43125]

Well, that's progress for you. Its what used to exist on the slammers on the Southern region. 4 was fast Brighton; 14 semi fast; 34 was a stopper. Simple and effective, it worked in the days before we had computers. But then university-educated people came along and made everything complicated so no one understood it.

Even on the Windsor side. 37 rolls in. Reading via Hounslow. 38 via Richmond. 13 Weybridge via Hounslow. Simple really.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've been to Euston quite recently and the arrival times next to each station call are also there.

Euston was first, I seem to recall VT paid for it to be developed/added along with the reservation level thing. It does seem the best solution on any display technology where it will fit.

Interestingly, the fact that it's now all right justified (and so easier to read) is my fault - one of the screens was wrongly set like that, and I Tweeted Network Rail saying it was much nicer as you can scan down the column, and the following day they were all like that!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I also think that apart from train-specific numbers, line numbers would be an improvement. GTR already has ‘route identities’, as shown here http://www.southernrailway.com/download/35735.7/network-map-gtr-all-routes/ but they are not really advertised. Some routes are also not too clear, e.g. it is not easy to know where an SN6 or an SN3 (why don’t divide it into SN31, SN32 etc.?) service is going to. Look at this map of train services in the German state of North Rhine-Westphalia and you see it is quite easy to see where a train is going to and which will presumably be faster than another: http://busse-und-bahnen.nrw.de/file...ng/ITF_SPNV/Regionalverkehrsplan_NRW_2017.pdf These numbers are generally known to the public and apart from the DB app, these numbers are also shown everywhere.

I had wondered whether well-advertised route numbers would work - after all they are the main means by which we identify bus routes. The problem however is that numbers require quite well defined and distinct routes with unchanging stopping patterns - and outside of very local metro services, that rarely happens in the UK. For example, London-Alton looks like a pretty well-defined route that ought to have a single number. But then you get some trains that stop at Clapham Junction and some that don't, and some stop at Bentley and some don't, and so on. Situations like that crop up almost everywhere in the UK. I'm not sure from your post whether that's a problem in Germany or not? (Do trains there tend to have better defined routes, or do German railways somehow cope with numbers on varying routes anyway?)

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

I'm not sure from your post whether that's a problem in Germany or not? (Do trains there tend to have better defined routes, or do German railways somehow cope with numbers on varying routes anyway?)

I would say, yes, they have. Regarding the trains in NRW (the map I linked), there are only some minor exceptions (e.g. the RE6 service only stops at Cologne Messe/Deutz in the early morning, or the RE1 service alternatively calls at Nordbögge and Dortmund-Scharnhorst; RE2 and RE5 sometimes skip stations because they are overtaken by a high-speed train) but apart from that, the route is always clearly defined. This wasn’t the case until 1998 (at least in NRW), but since the so-called ‘NRW-Takt’ scheme was introduced, which included trains at a clearly defined interval, either every 30, 60 or 120 minutes) and line numbers, it has been this way.
But it is really so varying in the UK?

 

[jimm]

I would say, yes, they have. Regarding the trains in NRW (the map I linked), there are only some minor exceptions (e.g. the RE6 service only stops at Cologne Messe/Deutz in the early morning, or the RE1 service alternatively calls at Nordbögge and Dortmund-Scharnhorst; RE2 and RE5 sometimes skip stations because they are overtaken by a high-speed train) but apart from that, the route is always clearly defined. This wasn’t the case until 1998 (at least in NRW), but since the so-called ‘NRW-Takt’ scheme was introduced, which included trains at a clearly defined interval, either every 30, 60 or 120 minutes) and line numbers, it has been this way.
But it is really so varying in the UK?

In the instance that prompted this entire thread - the Paddington-Reading-Oxford semi-fast services, yes it is.

Between Oxford and Didcot, trains can stop at Radley, Culham and Appleford, or Appleford and Radley, or Culham and Radley, or just Radley. In the peaks, some services start at Didcot and in both directions some are non-stop between Maidenhead and Paddington, then also have varied stopping patterns on the Didcot-Oxford leg.

Moving on to the Oxford fasts, some just call at Reading, some call Reading and Slough, some call at Didcot, Reading and Slough, some call at Maidenhead and Reading, and there are yet more variations in calling patterns beyond Oxford for the trains that continue up the Cotswold Line and terminate/start from five different stations as well.

Just try remembering numbers for all that lot - never mind making allowances for all the overseas visitors travelling between London and Oxford, who are the key reason why showing the last stop before the terminus as the destination of the semi-fasts was adopted for this route in the first place - a system which works.