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Trains are a rich man's toy, says transport secretary

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Zoe

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The problem is the vast majority of people view the cost of their car journey (wrongly) as the cost of the fuel (and in the odd case the parking on top), so there's always this notion that trains (and sometimes buses) are expensive because it costs more than the fuel in many cases. This tends to colour perceptions on cost, and decision making. Especially if politicians are insistent that passengers should pay the full cost, which makes the differential between the fuel cost of the car and the public transport fare more extreme in many cases.
The issue here is that a lot of costs of running a car are paid up front before you even put fuel in it. With rail the cost is paid entirely per journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I am not against privatisation for the most part, but the whole idea was to encourage competition that would make fares lower.
The companies compete for the franchises by putting in their bids. The government often select the bid that will require the least subsidy or pay the highest premium so in this case it seems competition actually makes things more expensive for the passenger although of course competition here is making it cheaper for the tax payer.
 
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swt_passenger

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The numbers are all over the place to be honest. I doubt we'll know the exact figures for a good few years.

Andrew McNaughton is the chief engineer of HS2, and has basically designed the whole thing - I'd suggest his frequency figures are exact...

PS ...and I've just been back and looked up the original HS2 Ltd report, which also mentions 18 tph as the effective capacity, so I don't think the numbers are as random as you seem to think...
 
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Zoe

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Andrew McNaughton is the chief engineer of HS2, and has basically designed the whole thing - I'd suggest his frequency figures are exact...
If the M40 is to be emptied then high frequencies will indeed be needed. A train every 2.5 minutes from London to Birmingham would make rail as convenient as car.
 

Butts

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Yes, I know it's cheaper here, only a couple of days ago a chap was explaining to a fellow traveller how it is much cheaper, not to mention quicker, for him to commute from Ferryside to Swansea by train than by car.

However, I do wish people would look outside of London and the South East when describing passengers as affluent!

There are lots of reasons why people choose a particular mode of transport, including, cost, speed, convenience and flexibility - I am not going to disagree! Richer people may well use different criteria, and give more or less weight to some, but that doesn't mean we can classify rail as a rich man's toy, any more than we can say it's only used by the less well off as all the rich have their own cars!

I think passengers outside the London / South East are known as effluent :p
 

SS4

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If the M40 is to be emptied then high frequencies will indeed be needed. A train every 2.5 minutes from London to Birmingham would make rail as convenient as car.

Except it [the M40] dumps you in what is essentially rural Warwickshire.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think passengers outside the London / South East are known as effluent :p

You mean people manage to live outside London/South East :o
 

Zoe

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Except it [the M40] dumps you in what is essentially rural Warwickshire.
The point here though is that the M40 is part of a London to Birmingham motorway route and running trains from London to Birmingham every 2.5 minutes has the potential to empty it of cars on this route.
 

Flamingo

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I wonder would something like the Channel Tunnel be feasible? Trains full of cars from London to Brum. Having a loading point and off-loading point onto the M-Way system at each end.

just a thought...
 

Oswyntail

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Some fares are "eye-wateringly expensive", so no shock there; whether that makes the railway a rich-man's toy is moot. But let's not believe that commuters subsidise the rest. Season tickets are ridiculously cheap by comparison with single-journey fares; commuters tend to commute because their overall cost of living is smaller that way.
 

SS4

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The point here though is that the M40 is part of a London to Birmingham motorway route and running trains from London to Birmingham every 2.5 minutes has the potential to empty it of cars on this route.

Yet Frequency =/= Convenience.

Undoubtedly it plays a part but what about parking? Being able to have a drink? Conduction of business? Even sleeping.
 

swt_passenger

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If the M40 is to be emptied then high frequencies will indeed be needed. A train every 2.5 minutes from London to Birmingham would make rail as convenient as car.

How can it possibly be every 2.5 mins to Birmingham?

18 tph is the upper limit to capacity of the trunk route - which will include the direct trains to Manchester and the northeast.

I expect 6 tph to central Birmingham will be the maximum they're planning for. The larger area will also be catered for by trains stopping at the Birmingham interchange station, near the NEC and Birmingham International.
 

Zoe

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How can it possibly be every 2.5 mins to Birmingham?
Sorry, I was referring to the 24 tph posted earlier. 18 tph is still going to be very convenient though. Even if only 6 tph run to Central Birmingham that's still just about as convenient as car.
 
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I am not against privatisation for the most part, but the whole idea was to encourage competition that would make fares lower. If it had worked, we'd not have any of these discussions.

I'm not sure that was the intention - the "only Intercity rail operation in the world" was nationalised and therefore hideously inefficient. By selling it off to Tory donors they could realise the asset value of the infrastructure and rolling stock sold off cheaply and profiteer on the operations contracts.

Competition and cheaper fares doesn't come into it when most of the franchises are absolute monopolies on most routes. Even better when you engineer the system so that you get paid large amounts of public money to run a service that loses money and thanks to the inefficiencies added in by fragmentation that public subsidy balloons upwards to many multiples ofwhat it once was with "inefficient" BR running it.

Someone needs to ask Hammond what he plans on doing about it. Transport infrastructure is an asset - it allows our economy to function. By pricing many people away and forcing many more to squander ever-increasing amounts of their decreasing salaries on travel to work, it harms the economy. Hammond knows that investment in transport pays a handsome return (hence his pro-HS2 status) but chooses to ignore these facts on the existing network as expanding the cash wealth of the plutocracy is more important than a viable mass transport system if you are a Tory or their Orange Book LibDem / New Labour stooges.
 

Zoe

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Undoubtedly it plays a part but what about parking? Being able to have a drink? Conduction of business? Even sleeping.
Why would anyone need to park? The idea here is to get people out of cars.
 

matt

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Why would they need to? They could go by public transport, buses run quite frequently in Birmingham and London.

Because a bus is likely slowly due to frequent stops so will negate a lot of the time saving made by HS2
 

Zoe

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Because a bus is likely slowly due to frequent stops so will negate a lot of the time saving made by HS2
Then you improve public transport. HS2 won't be for a few years so that's enough time to get public transport improvements. The last thing you are going to want is more traffic in London and Birmingham due to people driving to HS2.
 

exile

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This is exactly what was said by Labour ministers in Harold Wilson's government arguing against subsidies for railways (which Wilson, being a train enthusiast, personally supported).

Unfortunately, it is true that train users have a higher average income than bus users, and nowadays probably than car owners too. This is a two edged sword - the train lobby is pretty strong (compared to buses), trains being used by relatively wealthy commuters, and businessmen travelling to meetings etc - but on the other hand it can open up the railways to the "rich men's toys" sort of attack we've seen here.
 

Greenback

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This is exactly what was said by Labour ministers in Harold Wilson's government arguing against subsidies for railways (which Wilson, being a train enthusiast, personally supported).

Unfortunately, it is true that train users have a higher average income than bus users, and nowadays probably than car owners too. This is a two edged sword - the train lobby is pretty strong (compared to buses), trains being used by relatively wealthy commuters, and businessmen travelling to meetings etc - but on the other hand it can open up the railways to the "rich men's toys" sort of attack we've seen here.

On my route (Llanelli to Swansea), the bus is not only slower than the train, but more expensive too. As I stated earlier, the commuters outside London are not all wealthy - indeed I doubt that every commuter in the south east would describe themselves as rich or wealthy.
 

Metroland

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Indeed. The problem is London (and other big city) commuting distorts the figures. The average fare is £5, so out in the sticks taking journeys like Sleaford - Lincoln, Stoke-Derby, Liskeard - Looe, you are hardly going to find the same demographic, and these are the services that are heavily subsidised, not the commuter lines and inter-city network which tends to be used by the better off.

It is true, that the railways were, to an extent, always the domain of the middle class, as is flying. It's because of the sorts of markets it serves and tends to trade on speed and quality, with a slightly higher price (although not always) compared to a bus. Which is why if you look at the demographics of bus users, it tends to be people that cannot afford cars and are travelling over small distances. Indeed, on average only 43% of bus riders tend to be employed (nearly half tend to be retired and 12% unemployed), and at the opposite end of the scale, the average person through Heathrow is on 80k per year. The railways fall somewhere in the middle, in fact, as a mode contain the widest demographic - with a slant of the better off travelling more and on longer journeys.
 

Greenback

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That seems like a good summary of the position of rail in the travel market. The provision of free bus travel for seniors has increased the likelihood of them taking the bus rather than the train, at least in Wales. I notice relatively few older people catching the train at Llanelli or Swansea, those that do seem to be going on longer journeys judging by the amount of luggage they have.
 

passmore

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What a silly comment, trains serve city centres where the better jobs are, so of course 'the better off' tend to use them more, as they do intercity services for business.

In fact the 'better off' tend to travel more full stop, they have more holidays, own more cars, and go further afield. If you look at the demographic of the average airline passenger or car owner, the also tend to be 'better off'.

Poor people tend to either not travel, walk, or take buses.

That said, if you go out into the sticks on (heavily subsidised) regional railway, most passenger are students, single mums and older people. Hardy the 'better off'.

The question is, what does Philip Hammond propose to do about it? Or is this just another excuse to cut subsidy or hike up fares more?

I use trains all the time, I'm certainly not rich.

I agree. With the salary I used to have and the fares on trains we get today, I couldn't afford them and still can't to this very day. Trains these days are geared towards the season-ticket commuter, not the poor person who doesn't have appointments in various corners of the country and cannot afford the train. The privatisation of our railways has encouraged most, if not all of these TOCs, to set these high fares, with the government seemingly at a loss not to increase them year on year. You put a former public service into the hands of private companies and you get no regulation, with competition between fares into London coming at the detriment to the passenger/commuter who has to endure these higher fares.
Trains are hardly a 'rich-man's toy' though, visiting relatives down near Penzance a couple of years ago I was amazed to find I could afford some of the fares on the lines there as they were much cheaper than the ones you'll find at Milton Keynes Central. Some areas of the country are much cheaper in terms of single/return fares than others. Generalising from a government minister is nothing new. Proposing a solution to these fare hikes would be a lot more productive than saying something we already know.
 

Wolfie

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Some fares are "eye-wateringly expensive", so no shock there; whether that makes the railway a rich-man's toy is moot. But let's not believe that commuters subsidise the rest. Season tickets are ridiculously cheap by comparison with single-journey fares; commuters tend to commute because their overall cost of living is smaller that way.

Season tickets, particularly annual ones, do cost less (often significantly so) than single-journey fares. However, the season ticket buyer is paying a large sum of money up-front, which can be invested etc, for his/her journeys. Offering a discount for such a purchasing strategy is common eg football or rugby season ticket holders pay much lass per match than those who purchase match by match. Indeed it is also recognised that such purchasers are the loyalist supporters of the business and that it is essential to retain their loyalty as they provide the buisness baseline.

Where the arguement you are advancing is bogus and indeed deceptive is that it assumes that season ticket holders would continue to travel by train even if such a discount for bulk purchase was not available (and incidentally why should a one-off purchase cost no more than a bulk purchase? - such an assumption reflects a complete absence of any knowledge of basic economics). I am sorry but it just would not happen; other options such as coaches or cars would be used instead and many of the contributors to this forum would be seeking alternative employment.
 

Greenback

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Season tickets, particularly annual ones, do cost less (often significantly so) than single-journey fares. However, the season ticket buyer is paying a large sum of money up-front, which can be invested etc, for his/her journeys. Offering a discount for such a purchasing strategy is common eg football or rugby season ticket holders pay much lass per match than those who purchase match by match. Indeed it is also recognised that such purchasers are the loyalist supporters of the business and that it is essential to retain their loyalty as they provide the buisness baseline.

Where the arguement you are advancing is bogus and indeed deceptive is that it assumes that season ticket holders would continue to travel by train even if such a discount for bulk purchase was not available (and incidentally why should a one-off purchase cost no more than a bulk purchase? - such an assumption reflects a complete absence of any knowledge of basic economics). I am sorry but it just would not happen; other options such as coaches or cars would be used instead and many of the contributors to this forum would be seeking alternative employment.

The argument is not that there should be no discount, but that the discount is too big.

It should be noted that the discounts that commuters received as against daily tickets can vary enormously from route to route and frm TOC to TOC.

Also, an annual season protects against further fare increases, which can be a valuable beenfit in itself, particularly when the forthcoming increases are compared with the likely return from an investment of the season ticket money elsewhere.

It's probably just as wrong to say that commuters subsidise other travellers, as it is that other travellers subsidise commuters. The truth of the matter is that companies seek to maximise revenue from a wide range of ticket types and fares. In fairness to Oswyntail he was responding to the earlier suggestion that hard pressed commuters are subsidisng everyone ekse.
 

exile

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I agree. With the salary I used to have and the fares on trains we get today, I couldn't afford them and still can't to this very day. Trains these days are geared towards the season-ticket commuter, not the poor person who doesn't have appointments in various corners of the country and cannot afford the train. The privatisation of our railways has encouraged most, if not all of these TOCs, to set these high fares, with the government seemingly at a loss not to increase them year on year. You put a former public service into the hands of private companies and you get no regulation, with competition between fares into London coming at the detriment to the passenger/commuter who has to endure these higher fares.
Trains are hardly a 'rich-man's toy' though, visiting relatives down near Penzance a couple of years ago I was amazed to find I could afford some of the fares on the lines there as they were much cheaper than the ones you'll find at Milton Keynes Central. Some areas of the country are much cheaper in terms of single/return fares than others. Generalising from a government minister is nothing new. Proposing a solution to these fare hikes would be a lot more productive than saying something we already know.

Well, the fundamental reason for high fares is that railways are relatively expensive to run. McNulty is supposed to address this issue but I suspect the government is just going to cut subsidies - which is why we are hearing the "rich man's toy" arguments.
 

jetice

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Certain routes are heavily subsidised to the extent that it is cheaper to catch the train than the bus......I have a mix of people on my trains, schoolchildren, students, neds, football fans, workers, unemployed, pensioners (rich and poor), businessmen, leisure travellers......to be honest I would surmise that there are more average earners down to low income/unemployed than richer folk because they prefer to travel by car or fly! It may be different in the London/SE area but not where I am! A huge amount of travellers on my trains are travelling on Advance tickets or club 55 tickets when they are available. Many have student railcards etc...I would honestly say that the minority are rich!
 

jedy

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Boris Johnson also wants to put fares up on London Transport above inflation. As with all rail companies, he feels the train using public should pay for upgrades/improvements. These train companies are failing to realise that with the economy in the state it is, bills rising, pay freezes/cuts, job losses etc, dare I say it, even before the failing economy, people simply don't have the money to keep up with these price rises, even if it is for investment! Also not all people in large cities can find a job in walking distance so are forced to travel by train. Here in London, the congestion charge and the slow nature of buses mean trains are the only option.
 

jon0844

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I imagine many ordinary people would prefer to have new projects delayed than have above inflation increases!
 

jon0844

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Yes, and I think we'll all be glad that they're going ahead.

However, you can see why some people might say 'why not keep things as they are'. Besides maintenance, some rail users already get a pretty good service with pretty decent rolling stock. They may think being uncomfortable on a crowded train every now and then isn't as bad as paying another £500 a year this year, and another £600 the year after.

Would those with a good service be expected to pay more to improve the railway network as a whole, or those that need the service but don't need their faces rubbed in it? Why not consider a fixed levy on ALL tickets, rather than let individual TOCs decide what price rises to implement?
 
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