Trains are better than the stress of flying, anyone agree?

[theironroad]

Since the lack of working toilets seems to be a perennial problem on the railways nowadays perhaps it would be a good idea if they got more of them working properly !!

Part of the problem is that not all locations where trains are outberthed overnight have the facilities to empty the CET tanks and stock the water tanks. Trains berthed in stations overnight don't get serviced.

 

[bramling]

(I’m not sure if this is the right forum to post this, please move if there is a more appropriate forum on here.)

People might moan about train fares being expensive, about overcrowding etc but flying is far far more stressful.
I’ve had the airport experience many times and certainly do not enjoy it these days. Unlike the railways baggage weight restrictions are very strict with airlines issuing fines for being 1kg over. Railways require that only a reasonable amount of baggage is taken. I think it’s around 35kg max correct me if I’m wrong.

Airport Security is increasingly horrible, long queues and increasing strictness and rude staff. It’s not unusual to queue up for an hour a Stansted Airport security. People are fed up of the no liquids rule, 12 years after it was introduced. At least on the train you can take a flask through, at the airport it gets confiscated. Then of course it’s shoes off, belts with metal buckles off, coats off and in some cases your carefully packed bags emptied. I know there is a reason but there just seems to be a new check or rule every 6 months. Now there are plans to ban laptops, iPads etc from hand luggage and even introduce fines if you carry through a prohibited item like liquids. Staff are also quite rude with it too.

If security has not stressed you out enough and made you need a sit down, you often have to endure walking through a busy shopping mall before reaching any seats.

Airline delays. They can delay you up to 3 hours and not give any compensation. At least railway companies compensate passengers after 2hrs. Ive been delayed 2 hrs 45 mins in an airport because of the fault of the airline and got nothing not even a free cup of tea on the plane as a good will gesture. I really think they don’t care and punctuality is not a right.

So do you prefer trains because flying is exceedingly stressful these days?

It depends. Four hours from London to Glasgow by train is a very pleasant experience if the train isn't overcrowded. However four hours surrounded by families with screaming kids is a highly unpleasant experience. On balance I'd say by car early on a Sunday morning generally provides the most stress-free means of making a journey in this country nowadays.

 

[Wivenswold]

It it's feasible I'll go by train or drive. I actually enjoy the flight bit of travel, the car parks, airport security, food, bright shiny duty free stores and sitting around I hate.

 

[Robertj21a]

Part of the problem is that not all locations where trains are outberthed overnight have the facilities to empty the CET tanks and stock the water tanks. Trains berthed in stations overnight don't get serviced.

In which case they should be looking for a proper solution !. I'm rather surprised that this situation is allowed to exist.

 

[cf111]

It it's feasible I'll go by train or drive. I actually enjoy the flight bit of travel, the car parks, airport security, food, bright shiny duty free stores and sitting around I hate.

This matches what I would say. I like the centre-to-centre nature of train travel and detest airports but sometimes the airline prices, especially to London, are so cheap it makes it a no-brainer.

 

[w1bbl3]

In which case they should be looking for a proper solution !. I'm rather surprised that this situation is allowed to exist.

CET Tanks are not the nicest of things to empty and not really something you'd want to do at a station. The solution would be not to berth trains in stations but rather after completing the last service send them off to servicing depot, this may in case of many services that start early and where the unit has a long distance to the nearest depot result in later starts.

 

[Suraggu]

If I could I would prefer to fly, yes whilst most airports are out of the town/city, online check in, quick bag drop and security a lot quicker than it used to be I can be at an airport 50 mins before my flight and be at my destination long before the train would get there.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Last October I took the train from Huddersfield to Prague. I looked at flights but with the additional costs of getting to and from the airport at both ends (I only had 10 days notice) plus at such short notice the flights to Prague from any airport easily accessible by public transport at the home end were into 3 digits each way. Best option was flying from (IIRC) Newcastle to Bratislava and getting the train from there, or from Manchester to Munich with a change at Düsseldorf (which I've already done before many moons ago), again with onward train travel. Price-wise there was little between the cost of flights and the train, but the cost of getting to Manchester or Newcastle airports was more than the cost of a hotel room in Brussels on the outward leg. The ONLY additional cost on the train was a single from Cottingley to Leeds (as I hold a 2-5 MCard).

The experience was actually enjoyable, unlike flying which is stressful at the best of times. The only irritation was the security at St. Pancras which was still many times less annoying that the equivalent at Airports (biggest annoyance was other passengers, mostly British, who decided that then was the time to throw off the stereotypes about the English and queuing!).

I'm in the early stages of planning my next trip, and the airline industry will have to go some way to secure my custom even just one way.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Having a son with type 1 diabetes doesn't help with flying. The extra explaining we have to do and checks they do on his insulin pump and paraphenalia adds at least 20 minutes on.
However that flights we have done with him, there hasn't been much choice. Trains to Majorca or Lanzarote are a bit thin on the ground.

This is another factor for me when choosing modes. Security staff at St Pancras and Brussels-Midi were fine once I opened my needle-pen case and showed them my MedicAlert bracelet. Using the plane would involve a signed doctor's note, which most GPs charge for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Flying is as stressful as you make it, turn up in plenty of time with just cabin luggage without any prohibited items and its stress free in my experience. Slip on shoes for security

Unless you're in the US or typically wear very heavy boots this really isn't needed, I haven't had to de-shoe for security for years. Some people seem to just get into the habit[1] of doing it but you really don't need to unless asked.

[1] For some people being over-prepared such that they won't be "tripped up" by anything done randomly works for them to reduce stress, these are probably the people who de-shoe every time. But if that doesn't work for you, you really don't need to do it unless asked

 

[marks87]

The experience was actually enjoyable, unlike flying which is stressful at the best of times.

Again I say - what exactly is so stressful about flying?

It's one of those things where because so many people say it, it's just become an accepted fact.

Unless you're in the US or typically wear very heavy boots this really isn't needed, I haven't had to de-shoe for security for years. Some people seem to just get into the habit[1] of doing it but you really don't need to unless asked.

I've only had to de-shoe once in the UK, and that was at Gatwick after a worldwide security alert in the preceding days. Better to be safe than sorry.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do dislike the fact all airports are now designed to make you walk through what feels like miles and miles of shops.

Yes, that hacks me off. I do like airports having a good selection of shops - Schiphol, for instance, last time I went there didn't really have enough to keep me occupied while waiting - but I don't like being *forced* to go through them with people in the way looking at stuff one little bit. Yes, Luton, that means you. And Edinburgh, if I recall.

At Luton, I always loved walking through to nearer the gate and having almost my own personal coffee shop - with ample seating (plus a short walk to the gates). Sadly easyJet now seem to fly from another set of gates, or did on my last flight to Barcelona, so that trick didn't work out.

You mean the old terminal gates (1-9 or thereabouts)? They are used pretty randomly, so I expect there will be Easyjet flights that use them, it just varies as to which ones. As a regular on a particular flight every week for about 2 years we didn't get the same gate every day, it's not consistent like the railway tends to be, indeed swapping the gates round is probably how aircraft get switched between "diagrams" as unlike trains they are stored overnight at the gates rather than at a separate depot. Though Ryanair do seem to have quite a lot of flights from those gates so I expect they are cheaper than the others. Of course there are now the new gates as well I think (are they finished?)

Also wouldn't surprise me if they close the old terminal gates for a refurb once the new pier opens (if it's not open already).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, you're in charge of of a big piece of metal at height and speed and we've seen what happens when a few pilots have alterior motives, either 9/11 or with the German pilot who decided to commit suicide and take all his passengers with him, so it's hardly a surprise that all staff have to be screened as well as passengers.

You know all a pilot has to do to crash a plane is push forwards, right? He doesn't need a Tesco Value microwave meal to do so?

Of course, the reason is that other staff are not in such a position and it would be impracticable to deal with them separately. Also, staff could theoretically smuggle something nefarious in and pass to a passenger to carry out an attack on another flight.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Part of the problem is that not all locations where trains are outberthed overnight have the facilities to empty the CET tanks and stock the water tanks. Trains berthed in stations overnight don't get serviced.

True, but it is only a challenge in so much as the TOCs don't want to pay to install those facilities at the relevant stations. There are stations with those facilities in the world.

 

[Bletchleyite]

CET Tanks are not the nicest of things to empty

Then there is a need to design a system that makes it less "not nice" by ensuring there is no way effluent can occur outside a properly sealed emptying mechanism. So ATOC/Network Rail should get together and open their wallets and commission such a design.

Mind you, it's no more unpleasant than the strewn human faeces along the line at many stations due to non-CET fitted trains. Paddington, for instance, stinks of the proverbial in summer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

These advantages have corrollaries:

1. A guaranteed seat, means that you can't move if you are sat next to a screaming baby, or a drunk.

True, though in my lifetime I've done about 250-300 flights and that has happened very rarely. One way to avoid it is to cough up for the exit row (which I do anyway for the legroom) - neither of those would be allowed to sit there. But even away from that, stress is in some ways reduced by not being able to move seats - whether you should or not, and the logistics of doing it if you have lots of bags, are *themselves* stressors.

It's one reason I really like the VTWC seat selector - I know I can sit where I choose before boarding. I would absolutely pay for it, probably up to £5 per single journey would still work for me. Indeed, I'm surprised they haven't tried charging for it.

4. Convenient travelling with a lot of luggage means that you have a lot of luggage for the connections at either end. When you check in a bag for a flight, you increase the chances of it going astray. In the words of Colin Chapman of Lotus, "Add lightness and simplicate".

I go with one of my late colleagues' views (he was a classic and slightly eccentric true English gentleman - always wore a bow tie and a well-fitting suit) - "always travel heavy, you never know what you might want". With a modern trolley case, even a very large and heavy one, this really is not made difficult at all. I remember, before they were widespread, moving to Germany for a year with two traditional suitcases (albeit with wheels at one end), lugging those across London was not fun!

And in the 250-300 flights noted above, I've had luggage delayed twice. It's not anywhere near as common as people think it is, and some things people do without thinking (e.g. leaving old luggage tags on) make it a lot more likely.

 

[bspahh]

True, though in my lifetime I've done about 250-300 flights and that has happened very rarely. One way to avoid it is to cough up for the exit row (which I do anyway for the legroom) - neither of those would be allowed to sit there. But even away from that, stress is in some ways reduced by not being able to move seats - whether you should or not, and the logistics of doing it if you have lots of bags, are *themselves* stressors.

I've had my seat kicked by a toddler from several times, and you don't need to be sitting next to a grumpy baby for the noise to be a distraction. I don't need the extra legroom, and with an exit row seat, your bag has to go in the overhead bins and the middle seat will always be taken. Its a moot point now, as all of the flights I've been on in the last few years have had allocated seating.

There is another way to avoid the stress of lots of bags ...

I go with one of my late colleagues' views (he was a classic and slightly eccentric true English gentleman - always wore a bow tie and a well-fitting suit) - "always travel heavy, you never know what you might want". With a modern trolley case, even a very large and heavy one, this really is not made difficult at all.

It seems that am pretty good at knowing what I want, and I've got a credit card for the stuff I don't have with me.

If you have a bag that goes in the hold, it needs to be sturdy or, given enough flights, it will get damaged. That makes it heavy, and if its rigid, then its inflexible, and you can't fit it into small gaps on luggage rack, or in the boot of a car. I hate the noise of trolley bags being dragged along a pavement, and if you use the wheels outside, the bag ends up grubby. Stairs are a pain with heavy luggage.

And in the 250-300 flights noted above, I've had luggage delayed twice.

I have colleagues who check bags in, and I hear of their hassles. I haven't had any luggage delays in my last 300 flights, but I've only checked stuff in a couple of times out of those.

 

[Robertj21a]

In the last few years I've done 100+ flights, all with just hand luggage. It makes an enormous difference and I try to now tailor my trips to ensure that this is achievable. Previously, I usually put a case in the hold and came to dread the delays (and fear of it getting lost).

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the last few years I've done 100+ flights, all with just hand luggage. It makes an enormous difference and I try to now tailor my trips to ensure that this is achievable. Previously, I usually put a case in the hold and came to dread the delays (and fear of it getting lost).

Are there particular airports that are bad for this? I know luggage at Gatwick can be rather slow and Schiphol has a bit of a reputation for bags not making connections if they're a bit tight (solution: don't book tight connections), but I genuinely haven't had these experiences people moan about as if they happen every flight. Similarly, I had a serious security delay only ever once (at Luton caused by the M1 and railway both having problems, so a backlog of passengers all arriving at once as soon as both resolved), and the airport staff were handling it well, finding people for particular flights and moving them to the front so they didn't miss them.

I genuinely feel a hold bag provides a vastly superior travel experience, particularly when coupled with the likes of easyJet Plus (or status on a traditional carrier) which takes the check-in queue out. OK, it slows you down a bit - but trying to travel too quickly is the biggest stressor I can think of. Slow down a bit and it's a whole lot less stressful and more enjoyable.

FWIW Luton is quite good for baggage delivery, possibly the best UK airport I have experienced for it. But when all you do is throw it on the back of a flatbed Transit and drive it over there's not a lot to go wrong. I'm somewhat unconvinced that the complex belt systems at some airports really provide a benefit - there's a lot to be said for the low cost airline approach of "keep it simple, and it'll be quick, reliable and cheap". Usually with that list of attributes it's "choose any two".

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you have a bag that goes in the hold, it needs to be sturdy or, given enough flights, it will get damaged. That makes it heavy, and if its rigid, then its inflexible, and you can't fit it into small gaps on luggage rack, or in the boot of a car. I hate the noise of trolley bags being dragged along a pavement, and if you use the wheels outside, the bag ends up grubby. Stairs are a pain with heavy luggage.

1. Hold bags should be treated as consumables in my book. Buy a cheap one from Argos, then when it gets knackered buy another one. They aren't expensive at that level of the market and they do the job.

2. A well-designed train (so not anything made by AdTranz/Bombardier, ever) has overheads that will take a normal sized hold bag and floor level stacks that will fit massive ones.

3. Put your headphones in and listen to some music There are many sounds that people don't like...that's a bit tough!

4. Use the lift then. Airports and hotels tend to be fully wheelchair accessible.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Again I say - what exactly is so stressful about flying?

It's one of those things where because so many people say it, it's just become an accepted fact.



I've only had to de-shoe once in the UK, and that was at Gatwick after a worldwide security alert in the preceding days. Better to be safe than sorry.

I'm not sure exactly where the stress is for me, I just know that it is there. It might be the other passengers who are also inexplicably more stressed out too, so behave accordingly.

I don't believe I'm "afraid" of flying, and I'm aware of the safety statistics, but if I'm absolutely honest the fact that a catastrophic system failure on a plane will most likely be the end of me, (whereas with a catastrophic system failure on a train I've still a reasonable chance of walking away) is indeed a factor!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't believe I'm "afraid" of flying, and I'm aware of the safety statistics, but if I'm absolutely honest the fact that a catastrophic system failure on a plane will most likely be the end of me, (whereas with a catastrophic system failure on a train I've still a reasonable chance of walking away) is indeed a factor!

The other side of that is that, for instance, in their entire existence neither Ryanair nor easyJet has ever had such a failure, whereas railway related "bumps" are rather more common despite the railway's very strong safety culture. The reason for this is essentially that trains interact with far more other things (e.g. level crossings) than planes do - once in the air and past bird level the only thing that's going to hit a plane is another plane, and we've got fairly good at stopping that happening.

It's also the case that even in case of a catastrophic system failure it is quite possibly going to be possible to land the aircraft safely. Bizarrely, depending on how you think, Air Crash Investigation can actually be good viewing to get over a fear of flying - because it highlights just how bad things have to get for something to end up as non-survivable. A plane crash is pretty much never caused by one thing, it's caused by a chain of things.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You know all a pilot has to do to crash a plane is push forwards, right? He doesn't need a Tesco Value microwave meal to do so?

Of course, the reason is that other staff are not in such a position and it would be impracticable to deal with them separately. Also, staff could theoretically smuggle something nefarious in and pass to a passenger to carry out an attack on another flight.

Indeed, there's a reason they call it "Security Theatre/Theater"!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The other side of that is that, for instance, in their entire existence neither Ryanair nor easyJet has ever had such a failure, whereas railway related "bumps" are rather more common despite the railway's very strong safety culture. The reason for this is essentially that trains interact with far more other things (e.g. level crossings) than planes do - once in the air and past bird level the only thing that's going to hit a plane is another plane, and we've got fairly good at stopping that happening.

It's also the case that even in case of a catastrophic system failure it is quite possibly going to be possible to land the aircraft safely. Bizarrely, depending on how you think, Air Crash Investigation can actually be good viewing to get over a fear of flying - because it highlights just how bad things have to get for something to end up as non-survivable. A plane crash is pretty much never caused by one thing, it's caused by a chain of things.

Apologies for all the double-posting...

I know that air travel is pretty safe even compared to rail, statistically speaking. I know that the fear of the plane I'm on dropping out of the sky is infinitely small. The worry of being in a plane crash is irrational but it is there.

My main issue with plane travel (other than environmental concerns which I won't go into because I don't want to be THAT guy!) is that compared to (international, at least) train travel, as a passenger you're treated like cattle, at the low-cost end at least. Ironically, the worst part of my Prague trip were the legs that involved a brand more traditionally associated with high-end air travel!

 

[Tetchytyke]

FWIW Luton is quite good for baggage delivery, possibly the best UK airport I have experienced for it. But when all you do is throw it on the back of a flatbed Transit and drive it over there's not a lot to go wrong.

I don't know, I waited nearly 90 minutes there for Ryanair to get my cabin bag to me after I was given the yellow tag of doom.

(Solution: I just started ripping them off and taking them on board anyway after that fiasco).

 

[Bletchleyite]

(Solution: I just started ripping them off and taking them on board anyway after that fiasco).

Must admit I've never understood why they do it that way round rather than tagging that a bag *is* allowed on board. I bet loads of people do that.

 

[SaveECRewards]

I don't know, I waited nearly 90 minutes there for Ryanair to get my cabin bag to me after I was given the yellow tag of doom.

(Solution: I just started ripping them off and taking them on board anyway after that fiasco).

On Ryanair is the yellow tag a sign that you have to gate check your hand baggage? BA seem to have stopped giving out yellow tags, on there it meant it had to go under the seat in front of you (this was for things like laptop bags and handbags). People also started ripping those off.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't believe I'm "afraid" of flying, and I'm aware of the safety statistics, but if I'm absolutely honest the fact that a catastrophic system failure on a plane will most likely be the end of me, (whereas with a catastrophic system failure on a train I've still a reasonable chance of walking away) is indeed a factor!

There is that apprehension about stepping on a plane that you don't get stepping on a train or climbing in your car. I get it too. I'm getting more superstitious, I always take a photo of the plane before I get on because I always take a photo of the plane before I get on. Mrs Troll always says hello and goodbye to the plane. It's to do with a lack of control, I think. But it is totally irrational. I'm significantly more likely to be killed driving to the airport than I ever am on the plane I board once I'm there.

My main issue with plane travel (other than environmental concerns which I won't go into because I don't want to be THAT guy!) is that compared to (international, at least) train travel, as a passenger you're treated like cattle, at the low-cost end at least.

I think that's endemic across all transport modes these days, to be quite honest. The single most unpleasant waiting experience I've had when travelling was waiting to board the Eurostar at Brussels Midi. It depends on so many variables. I've been on the last plane out of Luton at 10pm before and it was lovely, the place was deserted, and I've flown out of there on a Saturday morning at 7am when it best resembled a zoo. Same with Eurostar, a lovely quiet train and quiet wait at St Pancras compared with a long, sweaty wait in that overcrowded cellar at Brussels Midi.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that's endemic across all transport modes these days, to be quite honest. The single most unpleasant waiting experience I've had when travelling was waiting to board the Eurostar at Brussels Midi.

Paris Nord is worse. An utter dump of a station in an utter dump of a location. Mind you Bruxelles Midi precisely fits that description too.

Most airports are nicer these days. Heathrow was a hellhole (and T4 still is to some extent) but they've turned it round with the new T5 and Queen's Terminal, both are very pleasant places to spend an hour or two.

 

[SaveECRewards]

Paris Nord is worse. An utter dump of a station in an utter dump of a location. Mind you Bruxelles Midi precisely fits that description too.

Most airports are nicer these days. Heathrow was a hellhole (and T4 still is to some extent) but they've turned it round with the new T5 and Queen's Terminal, both are very pleasant places to spend an hour or two.

T3 is a hellhole if you don't have lounge access, but amazing if you do. Fly BA (or other oneworld airline) and if you have lounge access you have the BA, Qantas, Cathy Pacific (my favourite) and American Airlines lounges to choose from. Fly Virgin Atlantic and their lounge is amazing. The contract (Priority Pass) lounges are even decent. I've not tried it but I assume the Emirates one is good as well.