Trains Arriving at Unlit Stations

[Clip]

Given that solar-powered LED floodlights with light level sensors are now available very cheaply, is it time some stations had these fitted in addition to the main lighting such that you never get a completely dark station?

Its a solution to the problem for sure but when do you turn the lights off to protect any neighbours from getting pollution at night? ( Not needed in this case but the point stands)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its a solution to the problem for sure but when do you turn the lights off to protect any neighbours from getting pollution at night? ( Not needed in this case but the point stands)

I'd probably say you don't. Except for some Councils looking to save money, you don't turn streetlights off, after all.

Modern LED lighting can be very directional, in any case. It's noticeable how much the light pollution in MK has reduced now most of the streetlight heads have been replaced with LED.

 

[ComUtoR]

I thought it use to be that unlit stations were not stopped at when dark, end of. Perhaps that was in the days of stations not being lit at all. This being possibly over 50 years ago. I may have read it in an old general Great Western Railway appendix.

What I stated was exactly what happens on a regular basis on my TOC. We used to have a situation with one platform where the station lights at a certain station always switched off before the last train.

In context what was asked was what the Driver can do and if we believed it wasn't safe then we can refuse. Most of the time someone may have already stopped there and told the Signaller specifically that they didn't believe it was safe and then trains are told not to stop. There are other actions we can take to ensure passenger safety.

As TDK has mentioned a Rulebook instruction I'm going to defer to him currently and have a check through.

@theageofthetra On a DOO service I can see the length of an 8 car (in my experience) on an unlit platform. Not a problem.

Yes, I can see in the dark. Probably not great but its not pitch black and to the point where I'm blind and can't see more than a few front of me.

All in all I would say that my responsibility ends when a passenger is on the platform. My job as the Driver is to make sure that the train safety check is carried out and no one is stuck in the doors. If I believed they would be put at risk by alighting at an unlit station then I wouldn't stop there. I think I have only done that once. Now I call the Signaller (if I haven't been notified already) and go on their advice. Make an announcement on approach. Then let passengers decide if they wish to alight or not.

The responsibility is then down to the TOC to ensure that its environs are safe. It is the TOC/Station owners duty of care to make sure that people are safe when they access their property.

If I was a passenger then the second I decide that I wish to alight and then step off the train onto an unlit platform then I must accept that I have placed myself into a situation where it may be unsafe and due to it being dark I would need to take care. It is still your choice to alight.

I'd probably say you don't. Except for some Councils looking to save money, you don't turn street lights off, after all.

My council switches off the street lights late at night. As a point of interest a few of our stations have dimmed lights with PIR's

 

[EbbwJunction1]

Can I turn this around and ask what would happen if there was a passenger at a station where the decision not to stop there had been made?

I'm assuming in this case that the station would be totally dark, so it would be very difficult for the driver to see the would-be passenger waving the train down. However, if he did see someone, would the driver have to stop (I'm guessing yes) or would the train just go on past?

I appreciate that it's possibly a hypothetical situation, but I'd appreciate your guidance on this, please. Thank you.

 

[PHILIPE]

If there is no lighting available at a station (defective), ATW publish on their Journey Check and ask that care be taken.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think the OP would have mentioned friends being there at 0100 to greet him if they had been there - and that would make more people potentially to fall over.

The OP did not mention a mobile 'phone.

How would "adequate clothing" have provided more light?

Are you suggesting that Starmill might have fallen over his friends if they had been there? That even in at night and in darkness Starmill would not have recognised his friends?

You're right if course in that Starmill didn't mention whether he had his phone with him. However young people tend to have their phone with them at all times and given that Starmill appears to be a cautious and thoughtful young man I'd be even more surprised if he didn't have his phone with him.

Starmill has stated that in addition to the platform being unlit the weather was very cold which appeared to have added to his woes. In which case I was curious to know whether Starmill was wearing adequate clothing.

 

[ComUtoR]

Can I turn this around and ask what would happen if there was a passenger at a station where the decision not to stop there had been made?

I'm assuming in this case that the station would be totally dark, so it would be very difficult for the driver to see the would-be passenger waving the train down. However, if he did see someone, would the driver have to stop (I'm guessing yes) or would the train just go on past?

.

If in ANY situation where I was instructed specifically NOT to stop then I would be going at a speed in which I would most likely not be able to stop. If I was instructed not to stop then I wouldn't.

We have had a situation where a Driver did stop at a station where he thought it was ok to stop. It transpires that the station was locked out of use and passengers ended up stranded on a locked platform.

Part of the reasons why we need to specifically ONLY do our job is because we are often totally in the dark as to what is happening elsewhere. Its not being uncaring or being a jobsworth. There is so much that we are simply unaware of that is beyond our control.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Why is the stations name top secret?

Yes I was wondering that too.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

If in ANY situation where I was instructed specifically NOT to stop then I would be going at a speed in which I would most likely not be able to stop. If I was instructed not to stop then I wouldn't.

We have had a situation where a Driver did stop at a station where he thought it was ok to stop. It transpires that the station was locked out of use and passengers ended up stranded on a locked platform.

Part of the reasons why we need to specifically ONLY do our job is because we are often totally in the dark as to what is happening elsewhere. Its not being uncaring or being a jobsworth. There is so much that we are simply unaware of that is beyond our control.

Okay, thanks - that makes sense to me.

Incidentally, I wasn't trying to make appoint about anything, I was just being curious about what would happen.

 

[Deepgreen]

Are you suggesting that Starmill might have fallen over his friends if they had been there? That even in at night and in darkness Starmill would not have recognised his friends?

You're right if course in that Starmill didn't mention whether he had his phone with him. However young people tend to have their phone with them at all times and given that Starmill appears to be a cautious and thoughtful young man I'd be even more surprised if he didn't have his phone with him.

Starmill has stated that in addition to the platform being unlit the weather was very cold which appeared to have added to his woes. In which case I was curious to know whether Starmill was wearing adequate clothing.

No, I was suggesting that if more people had turned up then there would be more opportunities for slips/trips by those people in the dark. My apologies, I didn't know that the OP is a young man (no clue was provided that I could see to inform us of this, nor is his age disclosed on his profile) and would therefore obviously have a 'phone at all times.

 

[ComUtoR]

Okay, thanks - that makes sense to me.

Incidentally, I wasn't trying to make appoint about anything, I was just being curious about what would happen.

No worries, happy to help.

 

[EssexGonzo]

If I was a passenger then the second I decide that I wish to alight and then step off the train onto an unlit platform then I must accept that I have placed myself into a situation where it may be unsafe and due to it being dark I would need to take care. It is still your choice to alight.

That wouldn't fly had there been serious injury. Not even slightly.

Where were the unsafe environmental warning signs or announcements?

Do the terms and conditions of carriage clearly state that an unsafe environment is provided as a default at all times unless otherwise advised?

Since when was it to be assumed that alighting at a planned station stop is unsafe unless otherwise advised?

If the passenger, sorry paying customer, had stayed on the train, who's responsibility would it have been to get him home from a distant station? Would the person on the ground have accepted the previously unsafe station and called a taxi funded by the TOC?

Might it have been even less safe at 1.30am on an unfamiliar station?

From the passenger's point of view (a bit radical around here, I know ), might it have been reasonable to assume that the next station might not have lighting too?

I think we all know the answers that would apply in the majority of occurrences.....

Starmill - well done for bringing it to the TOC's attention even though, according to a significant part of this thread, the fault is actually yours and yours alone. Obviously. :roll: The opinion-gathering to support this assertion will no doubt continue.

Whatever the opposite of "the customer is always right" is (which I don't subscribe to) it clearly applies here. We (the customers) are clearly inattentive, inconvenient and unintelligent halfwits because all of the bright members of the human race work for the railways.

Please let us know the TOC response.

 

[infobleep]

If in ANY situation where I was instructed specifically NOT to stop then I would be going at a speed in which I would most likely not be able to stop. If I was instructed not to stop then I wouldn't.

We have had a situation where a Driver did stop at a station where he thought it was ok to stop. It transpires that the station was locked out of use and passengers ended up stranded on a locked platform.

Part of the reasons why we need to specifically ONLY do our job is because we are often totally in the dark as to what is happening elsewhere. Its not being uncaring or being a jobsworth. There is so much that we are simply unaware of that is beyond our control.

Interesting from a bystander point of view. Do you know how the passengers got out?

 

[theironroad]

Can I turn this around and ask what would happen if there was a passenger at a station where the decision not to stop there had been made?

I'm assuming in this case that the station would be totally dark, so it would be very difficult for the driver to see the would-be passenger waving the train down. However, if he did see someone, would the driver have to stop (I'm guessing yes) or would the train just go on past?

I appreciate that it's possibly a hypothetical situation, but I'd appreciate your guidance on this, please. Thank you.

If a driver is issued a not to stop notice, it is that - not to stop, not stop if you want to, unless of course there is a red signal on the end of the platform or some other incident.

 

[DarloRich]

Good grief!!
How do people manage?
Good job you don't live outside the urban area where there are no street lights and darkness is accepted as the norm.

You could obviously see the station was in darkness as you approached the station, so how could you be "shocked by the darkness"?

I very much doubt that someone has been along and switched the lights off. I expect they are on automatic timers, so unfortunately aren't able to deal with late running trains.

this! Without wishing to be difficult where lived in rural North Yorkshire had no street lights and it wasn't, in itself a problem. It was quite nice to be able to see the stars! Visibility was not a problem once you adjusted to it, usually a minute or two after leaving the pub.

In many areas there aren't street lights and despite what the media would have you believe there are rarely roving gangs of urchins looking to rob you.

I would be more worried about the fact you slipped and fell. That could be of more danger to passengers, especially the elderly or infirm.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would be more worried about the fact you slipped and fell. That could be of more danger to passengers, especially the elderly or infirm.

Surely the two are related?

 

[Clip]

I would be more worried about the fact you slipped and fell. That could be of more danger to passengers, especially the elderly or infirm.

Very much so but Im struggling to understand why the light from the open doorway wasn't enough for them to see what they were stepping down on to?

 

[miami]

If the passenger, sorry paying customer, had stayed on the train, who's responsibility would it have been to get him home from a distant station? Would the person on the ground have accepted the previously unsafe station and called a taxi funded by the TOC?

Worse than that, the passenger may find themselves up against a byelaw prosecution or even a regulations of railway powered criminal record!

 

[berneyarms]

Not defending the lack of station lighting, but I have to admit - my first question on reading this thread was why didn't the OP use his mobile phone to provide at least some light (even if it doesn't have a torch like iphones do)?

It's not ideal but it should be enough to get out of the station with.

Perhaps the OP could comment on this?

 

[DarloRich]

Surely the two are related?

Very much so but Im struggling to understand why the light from the open doorway wasn't enough for them to see what they were stepping down on to?

I was assuming the slipping was due to poor treatment of the surface rather than the darkness.

 

[Clip]

I was assuming the slipping was due to poor treatment of the surface rather than the darkness.

I read it as the darkness caused it as he was shocked by it being dark.

 

[DeeGee]

Not defending the lack of station lighting, but I have to admit - my first question on reading this thread was why didn't the OP use his mobile phone to provide at least some light (even if it doesn't have a torch like iphones do)?

It's not ideal but it should be enough to get out of the station with.

Perhaps the OP could comment on this?

Perhaps the OP is unaware of how to use his mobile phone as a torch.

Or perhaps, as is usually the case with me if I've been delayed by almost an hour travelling at the end of the day without access to a phone charger, there wasn't enough battery charge left in the mobile phone to allow this.

Or perhaps the OP has heard of mobile phones being snatched out of people's hands at dark locations because they're visible to thieves because they're lighting the place up.

Any number of reasons, really.

 

[DarloRich]

I read it as the darkness caused it as he was shocked by it being dark.

agreed - but I am not sure how darkness can shock. it happens every night

 

[berneyarms]

Perhaps the OP is unaware of how to use his mobile phone as a torch.

Or perhaps, as is usually the case with me if I've been delayed by almost an hour travelling at the end of the day without access to a phone charger, there wasn't enough battery charge left in the mobile phone to allow this.

Or perhaps the OP has heard of mobile phones being snatched out of people's hands at dark locations because they're visible to thieves because they're lighting the place up.

Any number of reasons, really.

Perhaps he could answer for himself rather than other people making all sorts of suppositions?

I'm just asking the question as the OP hasn't commented on that aspect at all.

 

[Minilad]

agreed - but I am not sure how darkness can shock. it happens every night

This!

 

[Clip]

I'd probably say you don't. Except for some Councils looking to save money, you don't turn streetlights off, after all.

Modern LED lighting can be very directional, in any case. It's noticeable how much the light pollution in MK has reduced now most of the streetlight heads have been replaced with LED.

You're quite right they don't turn off street lights in most places however people expect street lights to be on and we get complaints from the public about having station lights burning all night if left on so we generally try and turn them off where possible/practical.

agreed - but I am not sure how darkness can shock. it happens every night

Ive no idea then

 

[fulmar]

On the approach to the station the driver should be informing the guard of the situation or making a PA announcement themselves. Alternatively there is a bell/buzzer code to tell the guard not to open the doors allowing time for passengers to be warned.

Both driver and guard should have handlamps to assist passengers as necessary although there isn't much they can realistically do beyond the station exit.

As for delays, I would take as long as necessary to ensure everyone was safely off the station. It is not an unusual situation on the rural routes where I work.

 

[Llanigraham]

this! Without wishing to be difficult where lived in rural North Yorkshire had no street lights and it wasn't, in itself a problem. It was quite nice to be able to see the stars! Visibility was not a problem once you adjusted to it, usually a minute or two after leaving the pub.

In many areas there aren't street lights and despite what the media would have you believe there are rarely roving gangs of urchins looking to rob you.

I would be more worried about the fact you slipped and fell. That could be of more danger to passengers, especially the elderly or infirm.

Quite!
But it seems that there are many who disagree with that view.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On the approach to the station the driver should be informing the guard of the situation or making a PA announcement themselves. Alternatively there is a bell/buzzer code to tell the guard not to open the doors allowing time for passengers to be warned.

Both driver and guard should have handlamps to assist passengers as necessary although there isn't much they can realistically do beyond the station exit.

As for delays, I would take as long as necessary to ensure everyone was safely off the station. It is not an unusual situation on the rural routes where I work.

Have you ever used a Bardic lamp?
I suspect a candle might be more effective to light a platform.

 

[fulmar]

Have you ever used a Bardic lamp?

Yes. I'm a driver with over twenty years experience of working on mostly rural routes. I have used one on many occasions to assist passengers on unlit stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the approach to the station the driver should be informing the guard of the situation or making a PA announcement themselves. Alternatively there is a bell/buzzer code to tell the guard not to open the doors allowing time for passengers to be warned.

The guard should (and indeed usually does) step out onto the platform and check it is safe to release the doors before he does. Checking the lights are on is presumably one aspect of this.