Trains skipping stations when they are less than 5 minutes late

[davethebus002@]

Why are trains allowed to skip past stations when they are less than 5 minutes late

 

[Somewhere]

Perhaps the delay was expected to be more when the decision was made. Perhaps there's a faster train following that they don't want to slow down

 

[The exile]

May be an incident either on the train or on the station…

 

[davethebus002@]

The train in question was expected to be later leaving the terminal than it actually did it left 2 minutes late but the decision to skip stops should have been reversed but wasn't and to make it worse the one behind was cancelled I think it's a delibrate ploy to make the industrial action look worse. This is South western railway who are prolific at skipping stations

 

[Class800]

Never seen SWR skip Cranbrook even though it's not a major station

 

[185]

15 minutes maybe - but 5 minutes is gross incompetence. Or Merseyrail.

5 minutes could be a single wheelchair assist.

 

[davethebus002@]

Never seen SWR skip Cranbrook even though it's not a major station

Probably because they don't often get that far

15 minutes maybe - but 5 minutes is gross incompetence. Or Merseyrail.

5 minutes could be a single wheelchair assist.

The train was the 1012 Shepperton to waterloo today 29th January

 

[The exile]

At some point the “catch 22” situation will arise. Getting the stops reinstated presumably requires the train to be held - potentially long enough for the stops to need to be skipped again. Granted - it does all seem excessive for a 5 minute delay….

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Probably the decision was made, and that’s that. Train crew generally aren’t allowed to challenge what control tell them to do.

 

[Somewhere]

Once a decision has been made, its usually better to run with it. Trying to change it at short notice causes confusion and may lead to an incident. Whoever made the decision may not be aware the delay was only 5 minutes either, they may be busy dealing with lots of incidents

 

[davethebus002@]

Once a decision has been made, its usually better to run with it. Trying to change it at short notice causes confusion and may lead to an incident. Whoever made the decision may not be aware the delay was only 5 minutes either, they may be busy dealing with lots of incidents

Perhaps they shouldn't make these decisions until they know the train is actually late not pre determine that it might be. The passengers are deemed to be a nuisance it seems

 

[Somewhere]

Perhaps they shouldn't make these decisions until they know the train is actually late not pre determine that it might be. The passengers are deemed to be a nuisance it seems

Again, making a last minute decision may cause an incident. Its not ideal, scheduling shouldn't be so tight as to need an intervention if a train is only a few minutes late.
Don't forget there's an overtime ban on, so maybe the decision was made to prevent avoidable overtime being worked

 

[davethebus002@]

Probably the decision was made, and that’s that. Train crew generally aren’t allowed to challenge what control tell them to do.

Maybe not challenge it but could say don't think it's necessary for a 2 minute late departure

Again, making a last minute decision may cause an incident. Its not ideal, scheduling shouldn't be so tight as to need an intervention if a train is only a few minutes late.
Don't forget there's an overtime ban on, so maybe the decision was made to prevent avoidable overtime being worked

Surely 3 minutes could have been recovered on the journey

 

[Kite159]

SWR up to their usual tricks of ripping out stops to pay out less money?

 

[Somewhere]

Maybe not challenge it but could say don't think it's necessary for a 2 minute late departure

Which the two minute delay turns into a five minute delay while you wait for someone to answer the phone so you can challenge it. Its one of those arguments that can go round in circles

 

[NSE]

Depends which stations were skipped. If it’s Raynes Park north, then plenty of time to change and wait for one behind making the stop while the original runs fast. If they’re skipping stations on the branch then that’s not so great.

Maybe not challenge it but could say don't think it's necessary for a 2 minute late departure

That is literally challenging. It may be a nice and polite way of challenging, but it’s challenging. As another poster said, by the time wait for another person to answer, check it can happen, repass the new info back, it’s just going to take longer. The line has to be drawn somewhere.

Also, I appreciate people have places to be and times to be there by, but this is London/just outside London. This is not like cancelling the last train of the day from Inverness to Wick half way and stranding everyone at a Scottish halt with no onward travel.

 

[TUC]

Skipping stations after the journey has started is a major hzard for disabled people. They may well be content that they can manage their planned stations independently and so have not arranged assistance , but to find that they now have negotiate an unfamiliar station and change trains is a different ask entirely.

 

[MontyP]

SWR are notorious for this, it regularly causes passengers on the branch lines to be 30+ mins delayed e.g. on the Shepperton branch it seems to be operating procedure to divert via Putney after any delay, thus missing out all the stops on the Wimbledon/Kingston stretch. Not great when your journey to school is from Wimbledon to Hampton! SWR get to report that the train is on time but a lot of passengers are delayed by 30 mins as they have to wait for the next service. There is only a 6 min turnaround at Shepperton compared to 8 at Chessington, 10-11 at Hampton Court, and considerably longer at Guildford/Dorking/Woking.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

Worse still is a driver being told to skip stops then being held at a signal in a platform the train was meant to be skipping. Happened to me once heading London-Horley and having resigned myself to doubling back via Gatwick then spent 5 minutes at Horley unable to get off.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Accepted that metro railways are very different beasts to the national network, but on the Met line a delay of five minutes is the trigger for services to run fast to make up some time. The exact stations skipped will depend on where the fast running is required.

 

[30907]

Probably because they don't often get that far


The train was the 1012 Shepperton to waterloo today 29th January

Unless RTT is wildly wrong the stops were reinstated and the following train was not cancelled. Do you have other information?

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Maybe not challenge it but could say don't think it's necessary for a 2 minute late departure

By the time the guard has been holding on the phone for 15 minutes trying to speak to someone the original delay would’ve snowballed anyway.

 

[infobleep]

Again, making a last minute decision may cause an incident. Its not ideal, scheduling shouldn't be so tight as to need an intervention if a train is only a few minutes late.
Don't forget there's an overtime ban on, so maybe the decision was made to prevent avoidable overtime being worked

I once had a situation where train staff had been told to run fast during disruption but no one else so train station boards were not updated.

It was something like the 7:34 Guildford to Waterloo via the New Line Guildford. I wanted to alight at New Malden but that stop was cancelled. So I got out at Surbtion and when I helpfully informed a member of platform staff, they weren't impressed by the situation.

Twitter staff seemed to think nothing was wrong because unless they are told by control it can't be.

As it turned out, the train stopped at New Malden.

That is very rare though.

SWR up to their usual tricks of ripping out stops to pay out less money?

The thing is, don't the government take the revenue risk?

Unless RTT is wildly wrong the stops were reinstated and the following train was not cancelled. Do you have other information?

Unless NRE is wrong, the stops were not reinstated. The following train was eirher, as you say, not cancelled, or it was cancelled but then reinstated.

 

[Leyland155]

Probably the decision was made, and that’s that. Train crew generally aren’t allowed to challenge what control tell them to do.

It's not necessarily the case that crew can't politely challenge control, it's perfectly reasonable to make suggestions if we think the decision is not ideal. Control have the overall insight of what is happening on the network, but it's crew that can see directly what is happening on the ground, and the impact the decision may have. Whether or not Control would listen is another matter, but it helps to have both perspectives when making a final decision. That being said, Control are usually very busy and there can be a wait to get hold of them. Equally, in a busy situation, train crew may not be readily available to answer their phones. So, as you say, it can take time to reverse a decision once made, and that's one of the reasons they often aren't.

 

[43066]

Why are trains allowed to skip past stations when they are less than 5 minutes late

Trains can skip stations for various operational reasons, I’ve never heard of a skip to make up time due to a five minute delay, though. More likely the decision was made, notices issued to traincrew etc., and was then overtaken by events.

Skipping stations after the journey has started is a major hzard for disabled people. They may well be content that they can manage their planned stations independently and so have not arranged assistance , but to find that they now have negotiate an unfamiliar station and change trains is a different ask entirely.

For some it will be, but clearly that depends on the nature of the disability. At least there are staff on board SWR services to assist. On my local network that wouldn’t be the case.

Worse still is a driver being told to skip stops then being held at a signal in a platform the train was meant to be skipping. Happened to me once heading London-Horley and having resigned myself to doubling back via Gatwick then spent 5 minutes at Horley unable to get off.

A lot of drivers will wait off the end of the platform until the signal clears in this situation. Waiting in the platform is just asking for someone to pull an egress!

It's not necessarily the case that crew can't politely challenge control, it's perfectly reasonable to make suggestions if we think the decision is not ideal. Control have the overall insight of what is happening on the network, but it's crew that can see directly what is happening on the ground, and the impact the decision may have. Whether or not Control would listen is another matter, but it helps to have both perspectives when making a final decision. That being said, Control are usually very busy and there can be a wait to get hold of them. Equally, in a busy situation, train crew may not be readily available to answer their phones. So, as you say, it can take time to reverse a decision once made, and that's one of the reasons they often aren't.

You can also challenge control’s decisions for safety reasons, or make unilateral decisions eg deciding to stop and offload a passenger who has been overcarried, incase they end up pulling an egress. That wouldn’t generally apply in this situation where clear announcements can be made in advance.

 

[Mike395]

A lot of drivers will wait off the end of the platform until the signal clears in this situation. Waiting in the platform is just asking for someone to pull an egress!

Out of interest - would it be permitted to stop short of a repeater and take its output as 'gospel' in this sort of scenario? Thinking somewhere (like Bedford P4 to use an example local to me) which is on a curve and you can't see the signal until you're platformed.

 

[43066]

Out of interest - would it be permitted to stop short of a repeater and take its output as 'gospel' in this sort of scenario? Thinking somewhere (like Bedford P4 to use an example local to me) which is on a curve and you can't see the signal until you're platformed.

Yes, as the banner repeaters are interlocked with signals, so can be treated as a definitive indication of a proceed aspect.

St. Albans and Wellingborough on the down are other MML locations where waiting at the banner happens from time to time.

 

[43096]

I once had a situation where train staff had been told to run fast during disruption but no one else so train station boards were not updated.

It was something like the 7:34 Guildford to Waterloo via the New Line Guildford. I wanted to alight at New Malden but that stop was cancelled. So I got out at Surbtion and when I helpfully informed a member of platform staff, they weren't impressed by the situation.

I’ve had the opposite, again with SWR. My train had been terminated at Twickenham due to a signal failure at Feltham*, with subsequent services diverted via Weybridge. Once the issue cleared the first one through was initially showing as stopping as normal, then came up as cancelled and running fast. Train then arrived, stopped and doors opened.

* in an utterly inept piece of operating, my original train went ECS to Reading and because it was late then ran back to Waterloo calling at Staines only, so pretty much empty again. They could have reinstated it, and at least got to Bracknell before sending it back, right time and thereby providing a service for far more people. But this is SWR.

 

[Taunton]

Once a decision has been made, its usually better to run with it. Trying to change it at short notice causes confusion and may lead to an incident.

Yes ... but none of this excess caution seems to apply when the train shortly before departure is non-stopped differently to the timetable in the first place

 

[Failed Unit]

On a different example, but the snowball on GTR soon mounts up.

At Welwyn Garden City you have a "faster" train to London at x21 followed by a stopper at x23. Should the x21 leave late the 5 minutes your are referring to it is now 15 minutes late at Finsbury Park. It return service to Kings Lynn is at risk of running late which then impacts LNER. The following x32 to Sevenoaks is late with services running through the Thameslink core impacted. So in this example skipping at least Alexandra palace prevents all this knock on disruption even with a 5 minute delay.

They could of course hold the stopper at Welwyn Garden City, which sometimes they do, but then the snowball starts building up on the stopping service as turn-arounds are short at Moorgate.