Tram drivers using mobile phones

[185143]

I'm not naming the tram system I'm on as I'm not necessarily after getting the guy in trouble, but I've just alighted a tram where I had noticed the driver using a mobile phone while the tram was moving at around 70kph.

Thinking of the recent tram derailment in Croydon (ok-that wasn't a driver on a phone-but the aftermath of that was horrific) and also the high speed derailment in Spain a couple of years ago, which was caused by a driver being distracted on a phone, I was quite concerned by this.

Am I making a deal out of nothing, or is this a serious issue?

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[Antman]

I'm not naming the tram system I'm on as I'm not necessarily after getting the guy in trouble, but I've just alighted a tram where I had noticed the driver using a mobile phone while the tram was moving at around 70kph.

Thinking of the recent tram derailment in Croydon (ok-that wasn't a driver on a phone-but the aftermath of that was horrific) and also the high speed derailment in Spain a couple of years ago, which was caused by a driver being distracted on a phone, I was quite concerned by this.

Am I making a deal out of nothing, or is this a serious issue?

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Serious issue and you should report it straight away.

 

[185143]

Serious issue and you should report it straight away.

As I thought-will do.

EDIT-Have now reported it.

Not sure why I hesitated tbh-even a car driver would get done for that.
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[rebmcr]

Seems pretty serious to me.

 

[bramling]

I'm not naming the tram system I'm on as I'm not necessarily after getting the guy in trouble, but I've just alighted a tram where I had noticed the driver using a mobile phone while the tram was moving at around 70kph.

Thinking of the recent tram derailment in Croydon (ok-that wasn't a driver on a phone-but the aftermath of that was horrific) and also the high speed derailment in Spain a couple of years ago, which was caused by a driver being distracted on a phone, I was quite concerned by this.

Am I making a deal out of nothing, or is this a serious issue?

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Yes it's serious, and if you're *sure* it was a mobile phone then you should report it. However please take some time to think about what you saw, and ensure you are comfortable in your mind that it was *definitely* a mobile phone, as opposed to other equipment for example PA handset etc.

 

[pdeaves]

other equipment for example PA handset etc.

or communicating with control.

 

[Antman]

As I thought-will do.

EDIT-Have now reported it.

Not sure why I hesitated tbh-even a car driver would get done for that.
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As I mentioned in the thread about the accident, a few years ago I saw a Tramlink driver driving with a phone in his hand which he was looking at. I was so appalled that I went straight to the tramlink shop/office near East Croydon to report the matter. The official I spoke to took my contact details and assured me that the matter would be taken very seriously and a few days later I got a phone call to say that the driver had admitted having the phone in his hand whilst driving and had been suspended pending a disciplinary.

 

[tsr]

or communicating with control.

Why would a tram driver be able to use that as any more reason to use a mobile phone than a train or bus driver? Handheld mobiles may well affect use of controls in a cab environment which will likely be designed for two-handed use (in fact, trams such as Flexity Swift models require a similar level of co-ordination to a road vehicle, even though you obviously don't actually steer, and have a hands-free microphone for things like PA announcements), and potentially could be illegal if the vehicle could be driven on a road. There is also the issue of distraction from being given instructions over the phone from personnel who may not be experienced in use of the environment in which rail movements are controlled (ie. cab/train/tram/signalling centre), even if they are used to making strategic decisions about it, and distraction from controlling the phone itself, which is akin to concentrating on a tiny screen waving round the cab in a vehicle which is driven on line of sight. Many tram networks are not "closed systems" but run on line-of-sight principles where the public are less easily deterred from trespassing, etc., where other trams may block the same section of line, and where sudden braking is perhaps more possible but also has the trap of being more likely to injure passengers too.

At the (railway) company I work for, Control aren't even allowed to issue instructions to a driver on the move anyway. Only the signaller and train crew are usually permitted to talk to them, when essential, as designated safety critical personnel competent to be involved during the movement of a train. Even then, the driver will not talk to them if they could be distracted, and this is both emphasised in training and put into practice very regularly. Some TOCs even require drivers to come to stand before using any type of phone-based conversation. I appreciate that on some tram systems, the controller and "signaller" (or whomever authorises movements) may in fact be one and the same entity, and they may be trained to do so, but use of a normal mobile phone to gain a clear understanding of movements is a) potentially distracting, b) possibly able to result in a loss of efficient control and c) able to be very easily interpreted as any other type of conversation by the public or indeed an inspecting/observing member of staff.

 

[Matt Taylor]

We use Iphones for communicating with control or the train crew resource managers, when they call us the first thing they ask is 'Are you in a position of safety', as guards we are not permitted to use mobiles during safety critical duties such as train despatch and if we do need to contact control when at a station we are advised to stand well clear of the doors and key off if possible.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

We use Iphones for communicating with control or the train crew resource managers, when they call us the first thing they ask is 'Are you in a position of safety', as guards we are not permitted to use mobiles during safety critical duties such as train despatch and if we do need to contact control when at a station we are advised to stand well clear of the doors and key off if possible.

Wouldn't a guard's first choice of method of contacting control or crew resource managers be the use of a GSM-R terminal in another cab?

 

[atillathehunn]

Yes it's serious, and if you're *sure* it was a mobile phone then you should report it. However please take some time to think about what you saw, and ensure you are comfortable in your mind that it was *definitely* a mobile phone, as opposed to other equipment for example PA handset etc.

I absolutely don't have to be sure. If someone is clearly not/unable to focusing on the job at hand - and the consequences of this are too clear to see in the Croydon crash - it should be reported. Official communication would have been recorded, and the matter would be dismissed as sanctioned by the management, so no harm. But it may also transpire it wasn't official and the driver was negligent and one small incident away from killing people.

It has also been highlighted by professionals that using even official communication devices under these circumstances are unlikely to be sanctioned.

So no, I don't agree with your premise at all. This kind of defence of "I'm sure they know what they are doing, they are the professional" leads us into dangerous territory.

 

[bramling]

I absolutely don't have to be sure. If someone is clearly not/unable to focusing on the job at hand - and the consequences of this are too clear to see in the Croydon crash - it should be reported. Official communication would have been recorded, and the matter would be dismissed as sanctioned by the management, so no harm. But it may also transpire it wasn't official and the driver was negligent and one small incident away from killing people.

It has also been highlighted by professionals that using even official communication devices under these circumstances are unlikely to be sanctioned.

So no, I don't agree with your premise at all. This kind of defence of "I'm sure they know what they are doing, they are the professional" leads us into dangerous territory.

It's not about whether professionals know what they are doing, but if everyone reported a driver every time they see them using some sort of communications handset, then it would waste a *massive* amount of management time investigating, plus the fact that in each case the driver would be stood down from safety-critical duty until the investigation was complete - with a massive effect on the service. Where I am (heavy rail not tram) use of radio/PA on the move is permitted - at the driver's discretion. Bear in mind also that virtually every allegation made by members of the public turns out on detailed investigation to be unfounded.

I'm not saying people shouldn't report things of concern to them, especially where it could be a safety issue, just bear the above in mind.

 

[reb0118]

Wouldn't a guard's first choice of method of contacting control or crew resource managers be the use of a GSM-R terminal in another cab?

We can contact control via GSM-R but the TCS has been specifically excluded from the phone book.

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[AM9]

It's not about whether professionals know what they are doing, but if everyone reported a driver every time they see them using some sort of communications handset, then it would waste a *massive* amount of management time investigating, plus the fact that in each case the driver would be stood down from safety-critical duty until the investigation was complete - with a massive effect on the service. Where I am (heavy rail not tram) use of radio/PA on the move is permitted - at the driver's discretion.

Maybe for a couple of weeks there would be disruption. I can't see any media-facing TOC management (as in Tram or Train - or bus operating organisation) saying that this or that driver was dealing with an official communication whilst supposedly in charge of a vehicle in motion. They would be slaughtered by the press and probably the safety authorities. Then there would be a long overdue nationwide ruling that such practice was not allowed and subject to disciplinary or even legal action, (maybe even the caller for putting the driver in that position).
That sort of positive action tends to focus minds and would probably stamp the practice out in a matter of days. I doubt that al the 'elf & safety' deniers would even come out of their boxes in the current environment.

 

[Antman]

It's not about whether professionals know what they are doing, but if everyone reported a driver every time they see them using some sort of communications handset, then it would waste a *massive* amount of management time investigating, plus the fact that in each case the driver would be stood down from safety-critical duty until the investigation was complete - with a massive effect on the service. Where I am (heavy rail not tram) use of radio/PA on the move is permitted - at the driver's discretion. Bear in mind also that virtually every allegation made by members of the public turns out on detailed investigation to be unfounded.

I'm not saying people shouldn't report things of concern to them, especially where it could be a safety issue, just bear the above in mind.

Other than the incident I mentioned I have never seen a tramlink driver using any hand held device and I use the system regularly.

 

[atillathehunn]

It's not about whether professionals know what they are doing, but if everyone reported a driver every time they see them using some sort of communications handset, then it would waste a *massive* amount of management time investigating, plus the fact that in each case the driver would be stood down from safety-critical duty until the investigation was complete - with a massive effect on the service. Where I am (heavy rail not tram) use of radio/PA on the move is permitted - at the driver's discretion. Bear in mind also that virtually every allegation made by members of the public turns out on detailed investigation to be unfounded.

I'm not saying people shouldn't report things of concern to them, especially where it could be a safety issue, just bear the above in mind.

This is what management time is intended for: managing employees and the business. This includes ensuring safety critical roles are being performed correctly.

There may well be an issue of multicollinearity on use of a personal handset vs an approved method of communications. But when use of either, and particularly a personal handset presents the threat of a major and fatal collision, I'm fine with spending the time distinguishing between the two. As others have noted, this wouldn't last long, and I'm sure that the consensus is that no distractions in the cab are overall better.

 

[bramling]

This is what management time is intended for: managing employees and the business. This includes ensuring safety critical roles are being performed correctly.

There may well be an issue of multicollinearity on use of a personal handset vs an approved method of communications. But when use of either, and particularly a personal handset presents the threat of a major and fatal collision, I'm fine with spending the time distinguishing between the two. As others have noted, this wouldn't last long, and I'm sure that the consensus is that no distractions in the cab are overall better.

Okay, let's provide some enlightenment about how such a report would - realistically - be investigated where I am.

We don't have any process in place for checking mobile phone records for personal phones - quite simply that doesn't happen.

One can trawl through CCTV from stations, however this will be of variable quality and is unlikely to provide anything which will absolutely conclusively prove what the driver was doing. We don't have any download data that will show if PA was being used, although we can find out if radio was being used (note the latter will cost a four-figure sum to download).

Bear in mind the drivers will know all of the above, so whilst there are one or two things that can be done to encourage honesty in an interview, the outcome of the investigation may well depend on what the driver tells you or doesn't tell you.

Whilst all of the above is going on, the driver is stood down so can't perform any useful duties, and management hours are tied up.

It's quite possible, probably likely, that the driver will receive some form of ad-hoc monitoring -- although of course it's not actually possible to see what's going on inside the cab although it might be possible to sit behind the bulkhead and listen. Finding people to carry out monitoring outside of Mon-Fri office hours can also be tricky.

As I say, I'm not for one moment suggesting people shouldn't report things of concern - not at all. Just take a few moments before pressing the 'send button' (so to speak). I can't stress enough that virtually every single report that comes in turns out to be unfounded.

 

[AM9]

... As I say, I'm not for one moment suggesting people shouldn't report things of concern - not at all. Just take a few moments before pressing the 'send button' (so to speak). I can't stress enough that virtually every single report that comes in turns out to be unfounded.

'Unfounded' insomuch that the driver might be seen holding a phone shaped object up to his ear and his jaw and lips are moving like speech. Of course he's not using a phone, - maybe he's having a quick shave.
One result of frequent reports by the public might be that the unions insist there is a curtain/blind in between them and the passengers. Now that would be a union safety justification of course!

 

[the sniper]

Wouldn't a guard's first choice of method of contacting control or crew resource managers be the use of a GSM-R terminal in another cab?

Where I am we were told not to use the GSM-R routinely as calls made on it cost the company more than calls made on the work mobile... I don't know if that is right though!