Transdev Blazefield

[Bantamzen]

Virtual Launch @burnleybuses

The Burnley Bus Company on Twitter

“It’s our first ever #LockdownLaunch! ✨Stay tuned as we show you the #PendleWizz route this evening✨ First the lovely town of #Skipton - home to some of the best markets around and the stunning @Skiptoncastle Buses run hourly Mon-Sat from tomorrow https://t.co/iUOWVEqtNN”

twitter.com

As a Bradford City fan, I approve of those colours! (We play in claret & amber for those unfamiliar)

 

[Tetchytyke]

As a Bradford City fan, I approve of those colours! (We play in claret & amber for those unfamiliar)

As another Bradford City fan,I approve of whizzing into Burnley

 

[RustySpoons]

As another Bradford City fan,I approve of whizzing into Burnley

Ey now, we aren't that far behind the times. We have toilets for that kind of thing now.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As a Bradford City fan, I approve of those colours! (We play in claret & amber for those unfamiliar)

Footballing allegiances aside*, the colour pallet is the one bit that I'm not quite so taken with. However, they do look smart and the branding looks ok.

* - just checked last time my team played the Bantams. Got beaten both home and away....but then again, most teams beat us that season!!!

 

[Swimbar]

Footballing allegiances aside*, the colour pallet is the one bit that I'm not quite so taken with. However, they do look smart and the branding looks ok.

* - just checked last time my team played the Bantams. Got beaten both home and away....but then again, most teams beat us that season!!!

Am I reading it correctly that there is no service to Skipton on a Sunday?

 

[RustySpoons]

Am I reading it correctly that there is no service to Skipton on a Sunday?

For now there isn't, they're still operating on temporary timetables.

 

[Deerfold]

Am I reading it correctly that there is no service to Skipton on a Sunday?

Although most Transdev routes have seen significant frequency increases today, The Wizz is still running pretty much the same timetable as the Witch Way was last week.

Expect the daytime frequency to double at some point.

 

[RustySpoons]

Going off the replies to AH's tweet it seems the 60 in Keighley could be one route that's being upgraded to deckers (after being downgraded from deckers), but not sure what the other one could be. More than likely in Yorkshire though unless they're planning on bringing luxury to Burnley local services!

Would there be enough ex Witch Ways to replace the B7s on the 152 AND upgrade two other single deck routes?

https://twitter.com/alextransdev/status/1267709191864627200?s=20

 

[Stan Drews]

Going off the replies to AH's tweet it seems the 60 in Keighley could be one route that's being upgraded to deckers (after being downgraded from deckers), but not sure what the other one could be. More than likely in Yorkshire though unless they're planning on bringing luxury to Burnley local services!

Would there be enough ex Witch Ways to replace the B7s on the 152 AND upgrade two other single deck routes?

https://twitter.com/alextransdev/status/1267709191864627200?s=20

My money would be on Aireline and Dalesway for the DD upgrade.

 

[Deerfold]

My money would be on Aireline and Dalesway for the DD upgrade.

In normal times the Dalesway buses get fairly busy (I live on the route). I didn't understand why they got such small single deckers for them. A few years ago they tried running them every 20 minutes which apparently increased patronage, but not by enough to justify it (it also made it hard to interleave them with the M4 so large parts of the route had bigger gaps even though there were more buses). Occasionally they get deckers in the peak (which I always seem to catch contra-peak when they're nearly empty).

 

[M60lad]

If I'm right didnt Dalesway used to interwork with the Ilkley service once over, I know it doesnt now apart from on Sundays/Bank Holidays unless this has stopped aswell, I think this is why they go the Versas as there's a low bridge on the Ilkley service which double decks dont fit under.

 

[Stan Drews]

In normal times the Dalesway buses get fairly busy (I live on the route). I didn't understand why they got such small single deckers for them. A few years ago they tried running them every 20 minutes which apparently increased patronage, but not by enough to justify it (it also made it hard to interleave them with the M4 so large parts of the route had bigger gaps even though there were more buses). Occasionally they get deckers in the peak (which I always seem to catch contra-peak when they're nearly empty).

Yeah, the increase from 30 to 20 min frequency seemed sensible, but with the PVR increasing from 3 to 5 it needed a lot of extra patronage to maintain its profitability, let alone improve it.
Keeping the current frequency, but increasing capacity with well spec’d DDs could be a good move, provided the railway bridge on the way into Skipton isn’t a problem for the Witch Way B9TL’s.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

My money is on the Hotline 152 (which desperately needs to replace the tired B7TLs there), and the Aireline 60. As others have noted, the Airport services (which I would think will have new E200 MMCs in due course - the contracts have specified new vehicles before, and I've no doubt will have been again) will likely need temporary vehicles, which the Versas will do nicely for part of it, and provides a convenient excuse to solve the loading issues on the Aireline 60 - and replace the now elderly 402/03 from front-line service - in one swoop.

 

[Stan Drews]

My money is on the Hotline 152 (which desperately needs to replace the tired B7TLs there), and the Aireline 60. As others have noted, the Airport services (which I would think will have new E200 MMCs in due course - the contracts have specified new vehicles before, and I've no doubt will have been again) will likely need temporary vehicles, which the Versas will do nicely for part of it, and provides a convenient excuse to solve the loading issues on the Aireline 60 - and replace the now elderly 402/03 from front-line service - in one swoop.

The Hotline is already DD operated, so that wouldn’t fit with the suggestion from Alex H that two single deck routes will benefit from the WitchWay DDs.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

The Hotline is already DD operated, so that wouldn’t fit with the suggestion from Alex H that two single deck routes will benefit from the WitchWay DDs.

You know, Stan, I'd missed that critical bit! (It's been a long day).

In that case, hmm. There aren't many routes that could be covered by this many 'deckers (about ten or so - remember five of 2766-80 are already accounted for at Harrogate and Coastliner). Maybe it is Dalesway and Aireline, then - which would free up the ten Versas for Airport work.

And in that case, the elderly Hotline deckers stagger on for another year...

 

[Tetchytyke]

provides a convenient excuse to solve the loading issues on the Aireline 60 - and replace the now

Are they still using the Presidents on the Aireline (at least pre-Covid)? If they are then they're a good fit, especially as the Versas haven't been big enough since the day they were bought.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

Are they still using the Presidents on the Aireline (at least pre-Covid)? If they are then they're a good fit, especially as the Versas haven't been big enough since the day they were bought.

Not to my knowledge - Geminis 402/03 have been the regulars for some time.

 

[darloscott]

Are they still using the Presidents on the Aireline (at least pre-Covid)? If they are then they're a good fit, especially as the Versas haven't been big enough since the day they were bought.

Not to my knowledge - Geminis 402/03 have been the regulars for some time.

Either way none of the B7s are upgradeable to Euro6, and therefore unable to go to Leeds. Therefore they need replacing on the 60.

 

[upasalmon]

Hello . I am new to this site but not far from my bus pass!
Blazefield has got a polarised fleet. The policy of leasing buses has led to a situation of having a large number of buses dating from 1997 to 2005. Blazefield needs 100 doubles and 90 single decks to replace the above. These figures can only grow if leasing continues and is surely unsustainable. Of course new buses are entering service but insufficient to replace elderly vehicles especially if buses built around 2010 are returned. Either that or Transdev will have to sell to a larger concern which will replace the growing,%age of elderly buses.

 

[Andyh82]

You know, Stan, I'd missed that critical bit! (It's been a long day).

In that case, hmm. There aren't many routes that could be covered by this many 'deckers (about ten or so - remember five of 2766-80 are already accounted for at Harrogate and Coastliner). Maybe it is Dalesway and Aireline, then - which would free up the ten Versas for Airport work.

And in that case, the elderly Hotline deckers stagger on for another year...

Aireline is a no brainer, I can't see the Dalesway 66 getting deckers though.

When new buses are purchased for the airport work, they could cascade the Versas to a service that is still using renowns

- Valleyline 22 at Blackburn
- Burnley local services

 

[RustySpoons]

When new buses are purchased for the airport work, they could cascade the Versas to a service that is still using renowns

- Valleyline 22 at Blackburn
- Burnley local services

That makes sense. Although it'd bring the end of near enough 20 years of continuous operation of B10s out of Queensgate! That's going to be a sad day.

 

[Andyh82]

In fact looking at the numbers, if the versas did come off the 60, it'd make sense for them to come off the 66 as well, as otherwise that'll only leave 4 left at Keighley. Transferring all 10 to Burnley would allow conversion of the Burnley locals, and give Burnley quite a consistent fleet of 40 versas.

 

[markymark2000]

In fact looking at the numbers, if the versas did come off the 60, it'd make sense for them to come off the 66 as well, as otherwise that'll only leave 4 left at Keighley. Transferring all 10 to Burnley would allow conversion of the Burnley locals, and give Burnley quite a consistent fleet of 40 versas.

Transdev don't normally do allocations so that similar types are kept in the same depots, they allocate what is best for the route and are happy to take the extra maintenance cost on varied fleets at each depot.


I am interested to see where the Zap buses go because they are quite old. They certainly won't be an 'upgrade' unless they are upgrading something like Valleyline so the only thing they will be of use for is replacing Presidents.

 

[Andyh82]

Transdev don't normally do allocations so that similar types are kept in the same depots, they allocate what is best for the route and are happy to take the extra maintenance cost on varied fleets at each depot.


I am interested to see where the Zap buses go because they are quite old. They certainly won't be an 'upgrade' unless they are upgrading something like Valleyline so the only thing they will be of use for is replacing Presidents.

If they do keep the old Cityzap buses, I wonder if they would reseat them as 2+1 leather seats wouldn’t be ideal for schools.

 

[Stan Drews]

Hello . I am new to this site but not far from my bus pass!
Blazefield has got a polarised fleet. The policy of leasing buses has led to a situation of having a large number of buses dating from 1997 to 2005. Blazefield needs 100 doubles and 90 single decks to replace the above. These figures can only grow if leasing continues and is surely unsustainable. Of course new buses are entering service but insufficient to replace elderly vehicles especially if buses built around 2010 are returned. Either that or Transdev will have to sell to a larger concern which will replace the growing,%age of elderly buses.

The old leasing argument has been brought up many times before, but it makes no difference whatsoever to the age profile of the overall fleet. The costs of vehicle ‘ownership’ don’t really vary by much, based on the method of ‘purchase’. The names on the rows and columns in the management accounts may differ, but ultimately the numbers will be much the same.
What is more important is how those costs of ownership relate to the revenue generated by the routes they are used upon, and therefore their level of commercial viability.
There are numerous examples of buses that have been retained after their initial lease period has been reached, primarily because it has made financial sense for them to do so at the time, either on their existing route or cascaded elsewhere - often with a refurbishment too. Similarly they have been happy to let other vehicles go, either because their performance/running costs may not have been as desirable, or there aren’t other routes where the lease/purchase/depreciation cost could be justifie.
Operators large and small, all over the UK, have buses of all ages coming and going in their fleets for many reasons, but very rarely solely due to the method of purchase/ownership.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Operators large and small, all over the UK, have buses of all ages coming and going in their fleets for many reasons, but very rarely solely due to the method of purchase/ownership.

I don't know much about how bus leases are drafted, so I am likely to be clueless here. But surely the method of ownership does have an impact?

On a traditional outright purchase the depreciation would be accounted for over 10 years or so, and at the end of that you've got a bus that costs you nothing to own but still has an asset value. This old bus goes on routes with lower patronage; the route can survive because it doesn't have to fund depreciation on a bus.

But on a lease, presumably the lease company will charge you the depreciation over the duration of the lease, plus a profit margin, and at the end of the lease you either buy the bus or hand it back. Not dissimilar to a PCP when buying a private vehicle.

If you buy it then you've then got to fund purchase and the additional depreciation
Although both amounts will naturally be lower, that's still something extra for alow margin route to have to pay for. So the temptation is, surely, to hand the buses back and get brand new ones on lease, just as you would with a PCP?

I think this is the point- Transdev have some really old kit they depreciated to zero a very long time ago, and they have brand new kit on lease. What they don't have is much stuff that's 10 years old and fully paid off. Maybe that's wrong?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don't know much about how bus leases are drafted, so I am likely to be clueless here. But surely the method of ownership does have an impact?

On a traditional outright purchase the depreciation would be accounted for over 10 years or so, and at the end of that you've got a bus that costs you nothing to own but still has an asset value. This old bus goes on routes with lower patronage; the route can survive because it doesn't have to fund depreciation on a bus.

But on a lease, presumably the lease company will charge you the depreciation over the duration of the lease, plus a profit margin, and at the end of the lease you either buy the bus or hand it back. Not dissimilar to a PCP when buying a private vehicle.

If you buy it then you've then got to fund purchase and the additional depreciation
Although both amounts will naturally be lower, that's still something extra for alow margin route to have to pay for. So the temptation is, surely, to hand the buses back and get brand new ones on lease, just as you would with a PCP?

I think this is the point- Transdev have some really old kit they depreciated to zero a very long time ago, and they have brand new kit on lease. What they don't have is much stuff that's 10 years old and fully paid off. Maybe that's wrong?

Leasing in bus operations was never that prevalent. You bought a bus, tying up the capital, and then depreciated it for 15 years and that was it. There were some instances of leasing - notably London Country in the late 70s/early 80s with their Green Line fleet. There are others too. Coach firms have traditionally done so for more obvious reasons as you struggle to cascade and so often take a hit on the disposal.

More recently, the differential between lease cost and the total cost has narrowed as money's cheaper to borrow. There's the cost of the lease (and profit) but you aren't tying up capital. Made your balance sheet look better and so on.

If you have a large fleet with the ability to cascade, then buying probably does make sense. If you don't, the cost penalty of leasing isn't that great. When you have fixed term franchises (e.g. London) then you have perhaps a 7 year contract that you may lose and then have to find a home for them, which is why Stagecoach (and I think Arriva) now lease rather than buy. That is the model that Transdev are comfortable with around the world; Blazefield is a bit of an anomaly.

 

[RustySpoons]

On a traditional outright purchase the depreciation would be accounted for over 10 years or so, and at the end of that you've got a bus that costs you nothing to own but still has an asset value. This old bus goes on routes with lower patronage; the route can survive because it doesn't have to fund depreciation on a bus.

Up until about 2005-ish when Blazefield used to buy buses for the flagship routes and then cascade the vehicles they replaced down. But since they've been leasing and not buying the buses when the lease expires they've got nothing to cascade down. Which is why we're in the situation where we've got near enough 20 year old heavy weight B10s on town services, and 15 year old B7TLs repainted and pushed back out onto an intense front line service on the Pendle Wizz, or having to buy second hand buses in to fill the gaps (the gop-eyed Presidents for example)

I don't actually think there's anything wrong with using older buses as long as reliability and comfort don't suffer. The B10s, still brilliant machines and I could happily spend all day on one. The B7s they've got on the 152 and now Pendle Wizz don't seem to be too bad either, although with low emission zones popping up across various cities the places they can go will be limited. Which explains why it now seems the Euro 5 B9s on the Witch Way seem to be heading to depots that operate into Leeds...

 

[Jordan Adam]

I don't actually think there's anything wrong with using older buses as long as reliability and comfort don't suffer. The B10s, still brilliant machines and I could happily spend all day on one. The B7s they've got on the 152 and now Pendle Wizz don't seem to be too bad either, although with low emission zones popping up across various cities the places they can go will be limited. Which explains why it now seems the Euro 5 B9s on the Witch Way seem to be heading to depots that operate into Leeds...

From what i see online the B7TLs do seem to breakdown quite often... The B10s look superb for their age though.

 

[northrob]

The policy of leasing buses has led to a situation of having a large number of buses dating from 1997 to 2005. Blazefield needs 100 doubles and 90 single decks to replace the above.

Does Blazefield really need 190 replacement buses? How many of these 190 are in frontline service and not confined schools/contract services? How many of the vehicles have been given an extensive refurbishment during their lives?

As other people have mentioned, as long as it's well maintained and comfortable and meets any current regulations, I can't see a problem with them running older vehicles - indeed, given the way some bus services have been going, it may be the case between them running vehicles of that age or no service at all...