EnviroExplorer
Member
Perhaps wishful thinking but they would seem ideal for the 843 short journeys and could be liveried up rather than the current grey vehicles used?
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Transdev Blazefield
- Thread starter RustySpoons
- Start date
Perhaps wishful thinking but they would seem ideal for the 843 short journeys and could be liveried up rather than the current grey vehicles used?
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R
RailUK Forums
No, what would be ideal for the short 843s are the B5s. People are avoiding the shorts to some degree because they aren't up to scratch, and it's getting worse.
I have seen the comments aimed at me. Unlike anyone else who posts on here, I live on the route. I posted an analysis a while ago, which echoes what Transdev have said. I said that outside the peak times and beyond the ring road, there was little trade. The previous MD wanted it and threw resources at it. He left and so did they. Currently it has some of the oldest buses in the fleet. They slowed the route in terms of timings. The peak times have the same timings as the late evening services, so the buses just sit around at timing points to lose time. They ditched the limited stop service, which slowed it further.
As to Connexions, yes it would be inconvenient if there were no evening buses, as it would mean that a £2.50 bus journey becomes a £35 taxi, if you are not using the car, but at least the taxi does the journey in half the time. However, East Keswick Parish Council have been vocal in the recent past about the inadequacies of the service, and the impossibility of enjoying a night out in Wetherby. As a result a recent trial saw a last 99 from Wetherby operate via Linton, East Keswick and Rigton Bank and then went back to Starbeck via the A58, so that Council would not just accept a 98 service, as it would leave East Keswick isolated. Linton is a 20 minute walk, a large part of it in the dark, as there are no street lights in Linton, and no pavements either for a large part of the route from either Wetherby or Collingham.
I have previously mentioned a shuttle service for Linton and East Keswick to the 36 at Harewood, but that was when Transdev were operating both routes. Whether a rival operator would be so keen to hand over trade to another operator is unclear. I suspect that the shuttle would be back to Wetherby and may have to be funded by Metro. Connexions would probably be the only candidate. They ran a Solo as a shuttle into Wetherby from Linton, when Linton Bridge was closed for a long period, a few years ago.
People mention the 7, but that only operates once per hour, for most of the day, is even slower than the 99 and goes nowhere near Collingham, Linton, East Keswick, Rigton, Bardsey or Scarcroft.
As to Connexions, yes it would be inconvenient if there were no evening buses, as it would mean that a £2.50 bus journey becomes a £35 taxi, if you are not using the car, but at least the taxi does the journey in half the time. However, East Keswick Parish Council have been vocal in the recent past about the inadequacies of the service, and the impossibility of enjoying a night out in Wetherby. As a result a recent trial saw a last 99 from Wetherby operate via Linton, East Keswick and Rigton Bank and then went back to Starbeck via the A58, so that Council would not just accept a 98 service, as it would leave East Keswick isolated. Linton is a 20 minute walk, a large part of it in the dark, as there are no street lights in Linton, and no pavements either for a large part of the route from either Wetherby or Collingham.
I have previously mentioned a shuttle service for Linton and East Keswick to the 36 at Harewood, but that was when Transdev were operating both routes. Whether a rival operator would be so keen to hand over trade to another operator is unclear. I suspect that the shuttle would be back to Wetherby and may have to be funded by Metro. Connexions would probably be the only candidate. They ran a Solo as a shuttle into Wetherby from Linton, when Linton Bridge was closed for a long period, a few years ago.
People mention the 7, but that only operates once per hour, for most of the day, is even slower than the 99 and goes nowhere near Collingham, Linton, East Keswick, Rigton, Bardsey or Scarcroft.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Yes I've noticed that, which only makes it worse when a single decker is used on a Scarborough and/or Thornton-le-Dale run. On top of that, the shorts are often cancelled to provide service on the rest of the network which makes sense considering the frequency of the York-Leeds service, but again, only makes it worse when a single decker is used on a long run to the Coast.
This route probably lost a significant chunk of its commerciality when Npower closed its Scarcroft site in 2017 / 18 (out of Leeds the 07:25, 08:05 and 08:35 were always well loaded double deck services, and by early 2020 (even before covid) were less than a quarter full, which may be why First quit the route.
Now it is more mixed, with some very well loaded journeys mixed in with some (almost) empty ones.
I do wonder if a hourly combined (ie x98 and x99 running every 2 hours each) would work, with a faster limited stop journey via Easterly Road (avoiding the bottleneck at Oakwood traffic lights) and North Street (avoiding Regent Street) would be sufficient (possibly with evening journeys tendered).
Were Transdev considering a frequency reduction when they ordered two (not four vehicles)? And then realised that the vehicle costs were too high given that franchising effectively cuts down their depreciation period.
I also wonder whether a combined hourly Leeds Wetherby Harrogate x99 route would work (30 min frequency with 7 between Harrogate and Wetherby).
Or could a shortened x99 running between Seacroft Tesco and Wetherby only, work on a one vehicle 90 min cycle?
Connexions have operated on this route before (during the 2016 First bus strikes with Leeds departures hourly between 0800 and 1800) so maybe Connexions Leeds to Wetherby daytimes (2 buses) with evenings and weekends between Seacroft and Wetherby (one vehicle, Squarepeg?)
Could First make a return?
Or could Go Ahead's East Yorkshire try (given their Cleckheaton base is around 20 minutes away on the M621 and they seem to be in the mood for expansion?).
Now it is more mixed, with some very well loaded journeys mixed in with some (almost) empty ones.
I do wonder if a hourly combined (ie x98 and x99 running every 2 hours each) would work, with a faster limited stop journey via Easterly Road (avoiding the bottleneck at Oakwood traffic lights) and North Street (avoiding Regent Street) would be sufficient (possibly with evening journeys tendered).
Were Transdev considering a frequency reduction when they ordered two (not four vehicles)? And then realised that the vehicle costs were too high given that franchising effectively cuts down their depreciation period.
I also wonder whether a combined hourly Leeds Wetherby Harrogate x99 route would work (30 min frequency with 7 between Harrogate and Wetherby).
Or could a shortened x99 running between Seacroft Tesco and Wetherby only, work on a one vehicle 90 min cycle?
Connexions have operated on this route before (during the 2016 First bus strikes with Leeds departures hourly between 0800 and 1800) so maybe Connexions Leeds to Wetherby daytimes (2 buses) with evenings and weekends between Seacroft and Wetherby (one vehicle, Squarepeg?)
Could First make a return?
Or could Go Ahead's East Yorkshire try (given their Cleckheaton base is around 20 minutes away on the M621 and they seem to be in the mood for expansion?).
peterblue
Member
Or extending to Knaresborough in place of the 8 might make sense since it isn't that far from Deighton bar. Tricky thing to make work, though.
Running from Seacroft only is a lot worse, people don't like having to change en-route.
I suspect that economically x98/99 peak journeys do well but it struggles off-peak.
Npower isn't the reason. They wound the site down long before 2017 and less than 6 people ever got on at that stop in the last 10 years. In any event it is currently being converted into an enormous retirement village, - look up Audley, Scarcroft Park, so there should be plenty of trade in the future.
Transdev were not considering a reduced service. They ordered 2 Merc Citaro hybrids for the 99 and were keeping the 2 current deckers (2427/8) for the X98.
Speeding up the service would help, using faster routes as you suggest, also travelling via North Street in Leeds, which is bus only inbound, to avoid Regent St.
You are right about Oakwood too. The problem is that there is no other bus between the junction with Easterly Road and Oakwood lights, past the schools and Roundhay Park, so I expect that would be an issue. There are plenty of other buses between Oakwood Clock and Leeds, so the 98/99 should revert to a limited stop service. There is also no other bus along Roseville Road, although that section sees few passengers.
A service extending to Harrogate would be too slow compared with the train or the 36. The 99 would have to go back into Wetherby after Linton, do the loop of the centre and then come back out again to Harrogate. There are already three buses an hour for most of the daytimes and they are never even a quarter full and 99% of passengers are ENCTS. There were 2 people on the 18:30 X70 from Harrogate to Wetherby yesterday.
I don't understand your Seacroft link. The 7 goes from Wetherby to Seacroft. There is no demand for a direct Seacroft link from Linton, Collingham or East Keswick. Changing at Seacroft to the 7 to go into Leeds would be a very slow route.
First may return, even if they do not want the route, on the basis that the routes will be bundled up with others that they do want, in the future, under franchising, but I think it is unlikely. They will wait.
As to Go Ahead - I think your timings are a bit out. It is 30 miles to Cleckheaton on the motorways. Transdev said in their withdrawal statement that it was difficult to run from a depot 10 miles away. Driver recruitment would be almost impossible.
It will be Connexions and there will be no evening service, which is sad, but inevitable, because there is just no demand. After the ring road in the evening from Leeds, there are next to no passengers. By Collingham, 3 left would be busy. It would not be a sensible use of resources to fund it.
Transdev were not considering a reduced service. They ordered 2 Merc Citaro hybrids for the 99 and were keeping the 2 current deckers (2427/8) for the X98.
Speeding up the service would help, using faster routes as you suggest, also travelling via North Street in Leeds, which is bus only inbound, to avoid Regent St.
You are right about Oakwood too. The problem is that there is no other bus between the junction with Easterly Road and Oakwood lights, past the schools and Roundhay Park, so I expect that would be an issue. There are plenty of other buses between Oakwood Clock and Leeds, so the 98/99 should revert to a limited stop service. There is also no other bus along Roseville Road, although that section sees few passengers.
A service extending to Harrogate would be too slow compared with the train or the 36. The 99 would have to go back into Wetherby after Linton, do the loop of the centre and then come back out again to Harrogate. There are already three buses an hour for most of the daytimes and they are never even a quarter full and 99% of passengers are ENCTS. There were 2 people on the 18:30 X70 from Harrogate to Wetherby yesterday.
I don't understand your Seacroft link. The 7 goes from Wetherby to Seacroft. There is no demand for a direct Seacroft link from Linton, Collingham or East Keswick. Changing at Seacroft to the 7 to go into Leeds would be a very slow route.
First may return, even if they do not want the route, on the basis that the routes will be bundled up with others that they do want, in the future, under franchising, but I think it is unlikely. They will wait.
As to Go Ahead - I think your timings are a bit out. It is 30 miles to Cleckheaton on the motorways. Transdev said in their withdrawal statement that it was difficult to run from a depot 10 miles away. Driver recruitment would be almost impossible.
It will be Connexions and there will be no evening service, which is sad, but inevitable, because there is just no demand. After the ring road in the evening from Leeds, there are next to no passengers. By Collingham, 3 left would be busy. It would not be a sensible use of resources to fund it.
The Roseville Road stops are very low usage and are close to the 12/13/13a stops on Roundhay Road and Regent Street has the 42. Maybe one of the 49 / 50 / 50A services could divert to run via Oakwood.
I think Connexions would do a reasonable job Monday to Saturday day times but we might need one or two evening and some Sunday journeys. Looking at how Connexions have run the 64 for several years, with First running evening and Sundays between Cross Gates and Aberford only, something similar could work here.
It just becomes a question of where most demand (if any) there is between Deighton Bar, Wetherby, Linton, Collingham, East Keswick, Bardsey and Scarcroft in the evenings, Sundays and Bank holidays and could such demand be met economically (one bus on a full route two hourly x99 or a part route like the current last x99 between Wetherby and Bardsey? Linking to Seacroft Tesco evenings and Sundays might allow driver changeover there similar to how the Sunday 64 journeys start at Cross Gates).
I think Connexions would do a reasonable job Monday to Saturday day times but we might need one or two evening and some Sunday journeys. Looking at how Connexions have run the 64 for several years, with First running evening and Sundays between Cross Gates and Aberford only, something similar could work here.
It just becomes a question of where most demand (if any) there is between Deighton Bar, Wetherby, Linton, Collingham, East Keswick, Bardsey and Scarcroft in the evenings, Sundays and Bank holidays and could such demand be met economically (one bus on a full route two hourly x99 or a part route like the current last x99 between Wetherby and Bardsey? Linking to Seacroft Tesco evenings and Sundays might allow driver changeover there similar to how the Sunday 64 journeys start at Cross Gates).
MCRTransitYT
Member
What about East Yorkshire, as Cleckheaton is go ahead west yorkshire + fourway coaches depot
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Fourways/Go West Yorkshire are managed under East Yorkshire. If Go Ahead do take on the service, it will be through Fourways/Go West Yorkshire as their depot is the closest compared to East Yorkshire's by far.
Once you reduce the bus service to once every 2 hours, or you go via Seacroft, (which is pointless. It wouldn't take any longer to go to Oakwood lights, to change there onto a 12 or 13, and then turn the 99 round at the bus turning point at Roundhay Park) then you lose what little custom there is in the evenings. The service is so infrequent that people will just use a taxi.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
2774 is now once again back at Rawcliffe.
As mentioned upthread, it wouldn't be surpising to see another operator take on the X98/99 on a Sunday and perhaps also evenings if Connexions were to take on the route, Connexions has this arrangement with the 11, First operates the 11A on evenings and Sundays.
Still a concern about frequency of service though.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
True, but it might be a temporary thing until franchising comes in, unless West Yorkshire Combined Authority decides to keep the funding level at the reduced frequency.
Slightly confused by this service update:
service updates
www.transdevbus.co.uk
The M31 doesn't serve Micklegate, Low Ousegate or Rougier Street so I don't know what that's about. One of the drivers in previous weeks told me that they'll just run into York via Bootham and terminate at the Station Road bus stops by the Council Offices. There is also no information regarding Coastliners starting at York Station, such as the 9:23 840 on a Sunday to Whitby. Will this start at Rougier Street running from Rawcliffe Depot via Bootham? Or will it run via Holgate and instead pick up at Blossom Street and run via Skeldergate to Stonebow?
As a side note, 1773 hasn't been tracking since the beginning of April. Does anyone know whats happening with it? Is Transdev refitting seats for it? Seems a long time for just a paintjob.
Transdev will make changes to the Dalesway service:
Thanks for your feedback on Dalesway
www.transdevbus.co.uk
Good to see Transdev listening to customer feedback, and implementing it where possible!
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That was the expected result. It is currently supported by Metro for the evening services as they are not comercially viable, so it will be whoever is happy to be paid to operate the evenings, if anyone.
Hopefully Connexions will speed the service back up to the First timetable, make it a limited stop again, and use the more direct route that First used in Leeds at peak times via North Street.
The Harrogate Bus Company branding has now disappeared from 1839. It is just a blank bus on the outside.
Hopefully Connexions will speed the service back up to the First timetable, make it a limited stop again, and use the more direct route that First used in Leeds at peak times via North Street.
The Harrogate Bus Company branding has now disappeared from 1839. It is just a blank bus on the outside.
RustySpoons
Member
- Joined
- 5 Apr 2019
- Messages
- 824
I believe Connexions were willing to take it on when First gave it up too.
It's only needed because of the larger gaps created by the recent timetable changes. The M4 and 66 don't mesh well any more in and around the peaks - they'd got them working together quite well on common sections.
Unfortunately I get caught by the gap in the other direction. There's buses for me around 0655 and then at 0725 and 0726 - which when you're on 3 routes that mostly run every 30 minutes is an annoying gap (before the changes I had buses around 0708, 0710 with the 0725 being my emergency backup when heading for Keighley for 0730). I could actually almost walk to town in that gap.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
583 (ex-Reliance ADL200MMC) has been repainted into York & Country Blue, though I suspect, like the other ex-Reliance vehicles that have been repainted (582, 1902) it hasn't received branding and is simply in blue.
211 (Versa) has been debranded ahead of return to the leasing company. Whilst I find York's Versas to be tired and worn, York currently needs whatever vehicles it can get its hands on so fingers crossed this removal won't make things worse.
Finally, on the York City sightseeing side of things, the last Plaxton President of the City Sightseeing fleet, 4007, is now at Burnley pending disposal, leaving the York City Sightseeing fleet comprised of open-top ADL400s only.
211 (Versa) has been debranded ahead of return to the leasing company. Whilst I find York's Versas to be tired and worn, York currently needs whatever vehicles it can get its hands on so fingers crossed this removal won't make things worse.
Finally, on the York City sightseeing side of things, the last Plaxton President of the City Sightseeing fleet, 4007, is now at Burnley pending disposal, leaving the York City Sightseeing fleet comprised of open-top ADL400s only.
Leedsbusman
Member
582 is fully branded - it was done a week or so ago.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
That's good to hear, is it known when 1902 will receive branding?
1860 is helping out at Flyer, fingers crossed it will return to York soon as Rawcliffe is already down two vehicles just this week!
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D6130
Established Member
I think you mean the A61!
YesI think you mean the A61!
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Transdev has announced the annual boost to Coastliner over the Summer Holidays, with additional services running from 20 July until 30 August:
www.transdevbus.co.uk
I'm surprised regarding the Sunday extension of the 840 to Whitby, that the return journey (17:36 off Whitby) won't run through to Leeds. Seems a bit illogical to have the morning service run from Leeds but not have the evening service return.
Will these buses be run by Keighley vehicles once more?
Getting you to the Coast this Summer
www.transdevbus.co.uk
I'm surprised regarding the Sunday extension of the 840 to Whitby, that the return journey (17:36 off Whitby) won't run through to Leeds. Seems a bit illogical to have the morning service run from Leeds but not have the evening service return.
Will these buses be run by Keighley vehicles once more?
MDB1images
Member
- Joined
- 9 Jun 2018
- Messages
- 672
Apologies if covered already, a month or so ago I saw a number of Flyer MB0295 Citaro hybrids parked at Blackburn depot, anyone know when these are due in service in Yorkshire?
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Probably because they would want passengers to transfer onto the 843 running 15 mins later?
Leedsbusman
Member
Aren’t you assuming everyone must be going to Whitby then? Perhaps the morning trip is to get people to York.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Quite inconvenient for anyone traveling beyond York Station then, especially if traveling as a family with lots of kids after a day out. By that metric, why not terminate that 840 in Malton and have people transfer onto the 843 there? Transdev has an outstation there after all. Just seems counterintuitive to have a once per day (on that section) service run from Leeds but not return to Leeds in the evening.
Doesn't have to be Whitby, could be anywhere north of Malton that is served by the 840 and not 843.