Transition to solo driving in the UK

[GodAtum]

I was curious when the transition from steam trains (having a group of people in the cab) to solo driving (I assume in diesel and electric trains) happened? Was there a hug backlash among the drivers and unions?

 

[The exile]

I was curious when the transition from steam trains (having a group of people in the cab) to solo driving (I assume in diesel and electric trains) happened? Was there a hug backlash among the drivers and unions?

Think the transition came long after the end of steam. “Secondmen” were initially required on HSTs as they were booked to run at over 100(?) mph (or was 110 the cut-off?)

 

[LowLevel]

2 drivers on trains over 100 mph were dispensed with in the 1990s on the TOCs/Train Operating Units after pay deals.

Secondmen in general went with the traincrew concept in 1988 though trainmen still existed for duties that required them.

To this day a few freight services are still double crewed for whatever reason - operating crossings, ground frames etc.

 

[hexagon789]

Think the transition came long after the end of steam. “Secondmen” were initially required on HSTs as they were booked to run at over 100(?) mph (or was 110 the cut-off?)

It was originally 100, then 110 was negotiated.

2 drivers for 125mph remained until I believe GNER and GWT separately negotiated with ASLEF very early into their franchises.

 

[Magdalia]

I was curious when the transition from steam trains (having a group of people in the cab) to solo driving (I assume in diesel and electric trains) happened? Was there a hug backlash among the drivers and unions?

It is important to distinguish between loco hauled and multiple unit train operation.

The diesel multiple units (DMUs) introduced from the 1950s were usually single manned. Electric multiple units (EMUs) were also single manned, and the drivers were sometimes called motormen, especially on the Southern Region.

For locomotive hauled passenger trains two key factors were how the train was heated and whether shunting staff were available at terminal stations to detach/attach locos. Steam heated trains required a second member of staff on the footplate to operate the boiler. The drive to eliminate steam heat in the early 1980s was primarily about eliminating the need for a second train crew member.

 

[75A]

It is important to distinguish between loco hauled and multiple unit train operation.

The diesel multiple units (DMUs) introduced from the 1950s were usually single manned. Electric multiple units (EMUs) were also single manned, and the drivers were sometimes called motormen, especially on the Southern Region.

For locomotive hauled passenger trains two key factors were how the train was heated and whether shunting staff were available at terminal stations to detach/attach locos. Steam heated trains required a second member of staff on the footplate to operate the boiler. The drive to eliminate steam heat in the early 1980s was primarily about eliminating the need for a second train crew member.

Not sure about this. I was a Secondman @ Brighton between 1980 & 83, never worked on a steam heated train (we only had 1 turn that had it Brighton -Manchester with a 47) & although a lot of turns had run rounds etc it was never our job., whether in a station or a yard.

 

[Joe Paxton]

It was originally 100, then 110 was negotiated.

2 drivers for 125mph remained until I believe GNER and GWT separately negotiated with ASLEF very early into their franchises.

In practice, did the second driver actually do anything?

 

[Magdalia]

never worked on a steam heated train (we only had 1 turn that had it Brighton -Manchester with a 47)

The Brighton-Manchester was ETH, it had to be for electric traction after Birmingham.

although a lot of turns had run rounds etc it was never our job., whether in a station or a yard.

Just because that was the case at Brighton doesn't mean that it applied everywhere.

 

[75A]

The Brighton-Manchester was ETH, it had to be for electric traction after Birmingham.

Just because that was the case at Brighton doesn't mean that it applied everywhere.

You can't tell me Brighton was different to Redhill or Norwood, depots we often were on loan to?
Thanks for the 47 info though. It was only The Top Link that were trained on 47's & signed the route from Clapham Jjnction to Kensington Olympia.

 

[Gloster]

Recollection - bear in mind that I was a signalman - is that as long as steam heating was the norm, there were plenty of double-manned locos. As eth (electric train heating) slowly appeared there was a falling away of secondmen, but they had to be retained for all the turns that involved shunting: the driver often needed somebody to look out of the window on the other side. So the number of double manned turns would depend on the number of shunting turns and the proportion of eth passenger workings. Around 1983 I believe that Taunton had twelve guards and five secondmen (and twelve guards), which reflected their balance of work. I think that a lot of the Euston electric services were single-manned from an early date as they were eth.

The SR was different because it had standardised on eth early on and so didn’t need someone to care for the boiler. Also it had less goods traffic and, I suspect, a higher proportion of yards with staff on the ground.

 

[6Gman]

A secondman was also required if the driver was unable to take a PNB (Physical Needs Break) within the required parameters.

And initially there were a number of other factors (continuous driving, whether by time or mileage, break from the driving environment etc.) that would block single manning.

 

[Magdalia]

You can't tell me Brighton was different to Redhill or Norwood, depots we often were on loan to?

And I'm not. I'd expect those to all be the same. But the Southern Region is not everywhere, in particular third rail electrification is a distinctive factor.

 

[Taunton]

Electric multiple units seem to have been single manned right from the start, around 1900. Lines such as the Mersey Railway, which changed over from steam to electric then, must have got rid of almost all firemen. The electrics were really perceived as sort of jumped-up tramcars.

On the odd 1970s occasions when Met-Cam dmus stood in for the Class 27 push-pull on Glasgow-Edinburgh in the 1970s the rostered fireman did always travel in the cab.

The first single-manned overall trains, no guard either, must have been the Victoria Line Underground in 1967.

 

[Springs Branch]

Electric multiple units seem to have been single manned right from the start, around 1900. Lines such as the Mersey Railway, which changed over from steam to electric then, must have got rid of almost all firemen. The electrics were really perceived as sort of jumped-up tramcars.

I read somewhere (can't recall precisely where) that when the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway introduced its first electric multiple units on the Liverpool - Southport route in 1904, it was canny enough to assign a new employment grade of 'Motorman' for the electric train operators, to avoid any potential malarkey with Trade Unions about needing two men in the cab if one of them was classified as a 'Driver'.

Apparently, many of the new contingent of motormen were recruited from firemen at Sandhills (later renamed Bank Hall) shed. IIRC there were two grades: Motorman - who spent all his time driving electrics; and Motorman / Fireman who might be given either an EMU driving duty or firing work on a steam loco (a pre-BR example of 'Flexible Rostering'). Steam Drivers, of course, were always Drivers and in a class of their own.

 

[etr221]

The first single-manned overall trains, no guard either, must have been the Victoria Line Underground in 1967.

Before that, the MDR/LPTB Acton Town-South Acton shuttle had a one man crew from 1932, when a B stock motor was specially fitted, and emergency telephone wires (normally only in tunnel sections) errected along the line. While the B class car was replaced by a couple of G/Q23 cars (to provide a spare), this method of working lasted until the line closed in 1959.
Then in 1964, the Central line Woodford-Hainault shuttle went over to OPO, as a prototype for the Victoria line - some (all?) of the 1962 stock units were converted with Victoria line type equipment (and later joined by a 1967 stock unit).

 

[6Gman]

Electric multiple units seem to have been single manned right from the start, around 1900. Lines such as the Mersey Railway, which changed over from steam to electric then, must have got rid of almost all firemen. The electrics were really perceived as sort of jumped-up tramcars.

On the odd 1970s occasions when Met-Cam dmus stood in for the Class 27 push-pull on Glasgow-Edinburgh in the 1970s the rostered fireman did always travel in the cab.

The first single-manned overall trains, no guard either, must have been the Victoria Line Underground in 1967.

I understand that the Fowey branch operated without a Guard (but obviously with a Driver and Fireman) in the 1950s which I find curious.

(Though not, of course, single-manned as such.)

 

[Gloster]

I understand that the Fowey branch operated without a Guard (but obviously with a Driver and Fireman) in the 1950s which I find curious.

(Though not, of course, single-manned as such.)

The push-pull on the Turnchapel branch didn’t have a guard, but a porter from Lucas Terrace Halt joined the train there on the outward journey and left it on the return. So presumably only the driver and fireman on board for the section between Plymouth Friary and the halt.

 

[Rescars]

In similar vein, does anyone know how many crew were required to operate a steam railmotor? Did these single coach vehicles require a driver, fireman and guard?

 

[Springs Branch]

In similar vein, does anyone know how many crew were required to operate a steam railmotor? Did these single coach vehicles require a driver, fireman and guard?

Yes. 50% of time when the railmotor was running in reverse - with the driver sitting in the front coach controlling the train via levers, wires and pulleys - the fireman still needed to be on the footplate down the back stoking the firebox, watching the gauges etc. IIRC many railmotors tended to serve unstaffed halts along the way, where tickets were sold by the guard, so you needed one of those too.

 

[Taunton]

Railmotors, and similar steam push-pull, often single carriage as well, were heavy on the crew. The fireman had extra responsibilities with the controls, and was working unsupervised, so on the GWR had to be a Passed Fireman. I don't know if the guard received an extra payment for ticket duties. The GWR mechanical control system was stiff and clunky, so if there was time the crew would often prefer to run round anyway.

I was reminded of this when on, of all services, the electric Glasgow Blue Trains in the 1970s. On Sundays the inner suburban stations were unstaffed, and the trains ran with a conductor who issued tickets from a bus conductor-type machine and money bag. As the trains were non-gangwayed everyone was confined to the leading carriage, but as the guard's compartment was in the centre vehicle to bell the train away that meant they couldn't do the tickets, so with the driver it was a crew of three for the single carriage in use. The trains had a door controls modification to allow the guard to operate only the leading car doors.

 

[30907]

I understand that the Fowey branch operated without a Guard (but obviously with a Driver and Fireman) in the 1950s which I find curious.

(Though not, of course, single-manned as such.)

Similarly on various SR push-pull worked branches.

 

[D1537]

The Brighton-Manchester was ETH, it had to be for electric traction after Birmingham.

In the early 80s most cross-country stock was dual heat and it was not unusual to see a steam-heat 47 on the Brighton.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_hoare/5653021682

 

[Magdalia]

In the early 80s most cross-country stock was dual heat and it was not unusual to see a steam-heat 47 on the Brighton.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_hoare/5653021682

Rail Gen Archive has about 40 workings for 1O74 to Brighton in winter 1980-81. Nearly all of the locos are ETH. A steam heat loco to Brighton was unusual.

 

[D1537]

Rail Gen Archive has about 40 workings for 1O74 to Brighton in winter 1980-81. Nearly all of the locos are ETH. A steam heat loco to Brighton was unusual.

Yes, I'm not saying it was normal, but you wouldn't raise an eyebrow when one turned up. As was the case for most cross-country trains on the Brum - south coast axis at the time.

 

[Lost property]

I knew somebody who was a SR second man on Electric loco's. He said he spent most of his time trundling around / stationary in sidings drinking tea / eating toast. Sometimes, a driver would let him drive for a bit.

As he said, bored stupid, so he joined the RAF ( RIP mate )

 

[Rescars]

I knew somebody who was a SR second man on Electric loco's. He said he spent most of his time trundling around / stationary in sidings drinking tea / eating toast. Sometimes, a driver would let him drive for a bit.

As he said, bored stupid, so he joined the RAF ( RIP mate )

Aside from the locos, have there ever been circumstances when a second man has been required to operate a Southern emu?

 

[Grecian 1998]

I have a Video 125 'HST West' production from 1990 showing Paddington - Bristol - Exeter. There are two crew in the cab between Paddington and Bristol where the speed limit was 125mph, but only one between Bristol - Exeter where the maximum speed is 110mph (a short stretch between Highbridge and Weston).

It seems therefore that by 1990 two crew in the cab were only required for trains exceeding 110mph.

 

[Taunton]

I believe the two crew in 125mph trains were both drivers, and would change over halfway through the journey.

The requirement was based on the speed the train was actually doing, not the track speed, what it was scheduled at, nor what the train was capable of. Initially Paddington to Bristol was double manned, but subsequently the second driver came from London only as far as Bath, then back. Sometimes they might be delayed on the Down journey, so the Up train would be sent forward at 110mph. I believe there was initial misunderstanding of this which led to some conversations while standing at Bath as to whether such a train could go forward or not.

Goodness knows why Bristol to Taunton is not 125mph. It is immaculately straight and level throughout.

 

[Magdalia]

Goodness knows why Bristol to Taunton is not 125mph. It is immaculately straight and level throughout.

On the Somerset Levels this is likely to be because of the stability of the track formation.

The ECML at Holme Fen is similar and is only 100mph.

 

[eldomtom2]

I read somewhere (can't recall precisely where) that when the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway introduced its first electric multiple units on the Liverpool - Southport route in 1904, it was canny enough to assign a new employment grade of 'Motorman' for the electric train operators, to avoid any potential malarkey with Trade Unions about needing two men in the cab if one of them was classified as a 'Driver'.

Somehow I doubt they avoided controversy with the unions - certainly on the LBSC there were objections when electric trains were introduced that they were interfering with the standard promotion path and being used to lower wages.