Transpennine Express Nova trains: why three different types instead of one common feet?

[S-Bahn]

Evening all, apologies if there is another thread on this, but I couldn't find it.

Why have TPE gone for three different models of train from different manufacturers (Hitatchi for the 802, CAF for the Mk5 coaches and 397, Stadler for the 68's)?

Why not just standardise on Class 802 IET as the Bi-mode would cover all the routes and assuming further electrification will take place between Manchester and York, meaning diesel will only be required when spurring off to Middlesborough and Scarborough.

Or go for the 802 and use paired up 185's for the non-electrified South Pennine Route.

 

[Kieran1990]

Evening all, apologies if there is another thread on this, but I couldn't find it.

Why have TPE gone for three different models of train from different manufacturers (Hitatchi for the 802, CAF for the Mk5 coaches and 397, Stadler for the 68's)?

Why not just standardise on Class 802 IET as the Bi-mode would cover all the routes and assuming further electrification will take place between Manchester and York, meaning diesel will only be required when spurring off to Middlesborough and Scarborough.

Or go for the 802 and use paired up 185's for the non-electrified South Pennine Route.

I think the reason is due to how quick the suppliers could provide the stock.CAF could provide the MK5A’s and the Class 397 a lot quicker than the Class 802’s could be delivered.
The TPE routes desperately need the capacity and sooner rather than later.

 

[js1000]

Same reason they opted for Mk5 carriages with a loco - it's quicker to manufacture than a multiple unit and to split between different manufacturer's production lines.

Short term over long term you might say given they'll cost more to maintain and take more time to train drivers in the long run rather than one single unit.

The unfortunate thing for TPE is their patronage has dropped off a cliff since May. The changes to routes to Manchester Airport and congestion through Manchester has really hurt them - far more than Northern actually.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The unfortunate thing for TPE is their patronage has dropped off a cliff since May. The changes to routes to Manchester Airport and congestion through Manchester has really hurt them - far more than Northern actually.

Given the severe overcrowding there was, it's hard to say that's a terrible thing.

 

[Chester1]

Given the severe overcrowding there was, it's hard to say that's a terrible thing.

I agree. Its a short term problem that will be reversed when the timetable is sorted out and the big fleet of shiny new trains arrives.

In answer to the OP, 802s are arriving as early as Hitachi can deliver them and therefore any additional units would have arrived after. That is probably a delay of well over a year even with the CAF delays. Scotland-Manchester airport wouldn't need bi modes and the 397s are most likely cheaper. The Mark Vs are due to a new design of carriage being available (from Caledonian Sleeper), allowing switch to electric locos in future and a gap in CAFs order book that apparently meant they are very cheap.

 

[squizzler]

I don't think Hitachi owned the former Ansaldo factory when TPE orders were placed (please correct me if I'm wrong). In retrospect First might have brought more 802 type trains at the expense of Mk5's if Hitachi had the manufacturing capacity then that they do now.

 

[Jozhua]

Hi all, slightly off topic but I wanted to avoid starting a new thread if possible...

Does anyone know if the class 185 fleet being freed up by the upcoming Nova trains will be used to increase capacity on the Manchester-Cleethorpes route via Sheffield?
I frequently travel this route and find it to be very overcrowded and uncomfortable, similar to many other Transpennine Express routes!

 

[Robert Mann]

Hi all, slightly off topic but I wanted to avoid starting a new thread if possible...

Does anyone know if the class 185 fleet being freed up by the upcoming Nova trains will be used to increase capacity on the Manchester-Cleethorpes route via Sheffield?
I frequently travel this route and find it to be very overcrowded and uncomfortable, similar to many other Transpennine Express routes!

From what I heard the Class 185s that TransPennine Express are retaining will be doubled up for both the Cleethorpes and Hull services so there should be a substantial increase in capacity there.

 

[Chester1]

Hi all, slightly off topic but I wanted to avoid starting a new thread if possible...

Does anyone know if the class 185 fleet being freed up by the upcoming Nova trains will be used to increase capacity on the Manchester-Cleethorpes route via Sheffield?
I frequently travel this route and find it to be very overcrowded and uncomfortable, similar to many other Transpennine Express routes!

Yes. From December they will be double sets between Manchester Airport and Sheffield, splitting as joining there.

 

[Jozhua]

From what I heard the Class 185s that TransPennine Express are retaining will be doubled up for both the Cleethorpes and Hull services so there should be a substantial increase in capacity there.

Yes. From December they will be double sets between Manchester Airport and Sheffield, splitting as joining there.

Brilliant news! Let's just hope the rest of the "Nova" trains get introduced on time

The 185's are quite a nice ride when you get a seat, however the commuter style doors have a habit of filling the carriage with a cold draft every time it stops at a station!

(Prefer the East Midlands 158's, however they have a habit of being even busier!)

 

[rebmcr]

From what I heard the Class 185s that TransPennine Express are retaining will be doubled up for both the Cleethorpes and Hull services so there should be a substantial increase in capacity there.

I thought 185s weren't permitted to Hull because of a weak bridge?

 

[sprinterguy]

I thought 185s weren't permitted to Hull because of a weak bridge?

Class 185s have been operating to Hull since the class was introduced: In fact their first ever public service was the 06:21 Manchester Piccadilly - Hull on 14 March 2006. It would be difficult for them not to given that they're TPE's only diesel fleet since the 170s left, which were only a very small fleet to begin with.

They can't make use of Sprinter differentials that permit higher speeds on sections of the route due to their greater weight.

 

[SP Man]

Class 185s have been operating to Hull since the class was introduced: In fact their first ever public service was the 06:21 Manchester Piccadilly - Hull on 14 March 2006. It would be difficult for them not to given that they're TPE's only diesel fleet since the 170s left, which were only a very small fleet to begin with.

They can't make use of Sprinter differentials that permit higher speeds on sections of the route due to their greater weight.

I can confirm that, I was the Riding Traction Inspector on that day, spent every station stop clearing snow from the horns!

 

[py_megapixel]

It wouldn't make sense to lug around a diesel engine for their Scotland routes, or an electric engine for their diesel-only routes. So using bi-modes for everything is a bad idea. Train operators should be doing this and choosing a type of train which is actually what is needed for a route, rather than just saying "Bi-modes for everything!!"

 

[tbtc]

It wouldn't make sense to lug around a diesel engine for their Scotland routes, or an electric engine for their diesel-only routes. So using bi-modes for everything is a bad idea. Train operators should be doing this and choosing a type of train which is actually what is needed for a route, rather than just saying "Bi-modes for everything!!"

If a train is a hundred metres long and therefore capable of carrying hundreds of passengers, the weight of the diesel/electric equipment on the sections they aren't used on is fairly negligible (though a number of people on here seem very concerned about this "excess" weight).

Take a route like Liverpool - Newcastle (planned extension to Edinburgh) - that might be electric from Liverpool to Stalybridge, diesel from Stalybridge to Huddersfield, electric from Huddersfield to Leeds, diesel from Leeds to York and then electric from York to Newcastle (or Edinburgh).

Even the South TPE route (the ignored bit of the network, the one not getting new trains, the lowest priority route) is electrified from Hazel Grove to Manchester Airport. And the WCML services may need diversion over non-electrified routes, depending on disruption (e.g. Wigan - Bolton).

Do people really think it'd be better to run a diesel train all that way (all all of the unnecessary emissions), especially when there's a relative shortage of DMUs on the network? Or would they rather that we chopped routes up to suit the electrification map? Or, maybe, 802s are the least-worst option and TPE are doing the right thing.

 

[Jozhua]

If a train is a hundred metres long and therefore capable of carrying hundreds of passengers, the weight of the diesel/electric equipment on the sections they aren't used on is fairly negligible (though a number of people on here seem very concerned about this "excess" weight).

Take a route like Liverpool - Newcastle (planned extension to Edinburgh) - that might be electric from Liverpool to Stalybridge, diesel from Stalybridge to Huddersfield, electric from Huddersfield to Leeds, diesel from Leeds to York and then electric from York to Newcastle (or Edinburgh).

Even the South TPE route (the ignored bit of the network, the one not getting new trains, the lowest priority route) is electrified from Hazel Grove to Manchester Airport. And the WCML services may need diversion over non-electrified routes, depending on disruption (e.g. Wigan - Bolton).

Do people really think it'd be better to run a diesel train all that way (all all of the unnecessary emissions), especially when there's a relative shortage of DMUs on the network? Or would they rather that we chopped routes up to suit the electrification map? Or, maybe, 802s are the least-worst option and TPE are doing the right thing.

You're not wrong about the South Transpennine being the forgotten about route!

I'm unsure exactly how the 802's work but I'm pretty sure they're diesel electric anyway? So most of the electric equipment needs to be used under diesel propulsion right?

 

[sprinterguy]

I'm unsure exactly how the 802's work but I'm pretty sure they're diesel electric anyway? So most of the electric equipment needs to be used under diesel propulsion right?

A diesel only unit wouldn't require the pantograph or transformer found on the driving cars, the transformer being the weightiest component. Though I agree with tbtc that the difference in weight is negligible overall: Even a bi-mode class 800 with diesel engines fitted is lighter per vehicle than a class 390, despite longer carriages (though sans tilt equipment).