Transpennine Express to Scarborough - Will it always be a shuttle to York?

[Masboroughlad]

Is Scarborough destined to be served only by a York shuttle?

Disappointed to not be able to get through trains from Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm inclined to think so to be honest. There's very little likely through demand from Manchester to Scarborough (if you wanted to go to somewhere like Scarborough you've got nearer options like Southport and the likes - obviously some will go on holiday there as it's nice but it's not a big day-trip destination in the way it is from Yorkshire), and more demand for other things like more through fast Newcastles. And the service from York to Scarborough is more reliable if run as a shuttle, benefitting the majority of users who are making that shorter journey.

 

[185]

It's stupid, as there was a lot of through travel from Malton & Scarborough to Leeds or Manchester Airport. That died off when Firstgroup messed around with the service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's stupid, as there was a lot of through travel from Malton & Scarborough to Leeds or Manchester Airport. That died off when Firstgroup messed around with the service.

I suspect a fair bit of the airport traffic was also killed by the chronic unreliability issue (which has improved a lot, but flights are expensive to take risks with, and your insurance won't always cover all of it dependent on the policy).

 

[185]

I suspect a fair bit of the airport traffic was also killed by the chronic unreliability issue

FirstGroup was the chronic unreliability issue. Went from being a reasonably well respected company in 2006, downhill in 2011 to a poorly written GCSE project from 2018.

Can only hope the clearout of those who caused the problem continues and the OLR's chap Mr Jackson turns the place around.

 

[YorkshireBear]

They have some through services but these are currently not running due to the Leeds-Thornhill LNW Junction blockade.

 

[zwk500]

I'm inclined to think so to be honest. There's very little likely through demand from Manchester to Scarborough (if you wanted to go to somewhere like Scarborough you've got nearer options like Southport and the likes - obviously some will go on holiday there as it's nice but it's not a big day-trip destination in the way it is from Yorkshire), and more demand for other things like more through fast Newcastles. And the service from York to Scarborough is more reliable if run as a shuttle, benefitting the majority of users who are making that shorter journey.

I'd be surprised if Leeds-Scarborough wasn't viable as a through service, possibly more popular on weekends than weekdays but still reasonably busy. York to Manchester is also an important connection and given you don't want to be terminating one service at Leeds and one at York and you don't need double the frequency between York and Leeds (with other trains that serve this route), running Manchester-Scarborough as a through service is probably sensible long term.

 

[swt_passenger]

The December 2024 TPE track access application has all the Scarborough trains, ie 17 per day, running through to Manchester Victoria.

 

[thealexweb]

The December 2024 TPE track access application has all the Scarborough trains, ie 17 per day, running through to Manchester Victoria.

Is this document available for the public to read? Thank you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The December 2024 TPE track access application has all the Scarborough trains, ie 17 per day, running through to Manchester Victoria.

Well that's a surprise! Maybe they've been pressured over it.

 

[Meerkat]

I'd be surprised if Leeds-Scarborough wasn't viable as a through service, possibly more popular on weekends than weekdays but still reasonably busy. York to Manchester is also an important connection and given you don't want to be terminating one service at Leeds and one at York and you don't need double the frequency between York and Leeds (with other trains that serve this route), running Manchester-Scarborough as a through service is probably sensible long term.

Could Scarborough be tacked onto the Northern Blackpool trains instead?
Scarborough is a great place but seems an odd terminal for major TPE services.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is this document available for the public to read? Thank you.

Yes, but a direct link to the relevant service tables isn’t possible. You’ll need to follow the links to current consultations on the NR page, it’s the TPE 58th supplementary agreement. The form P just states in the text that Scarborough to York services will run from Victoria, it’s the table 2.1 and 2.2 that describe the service patterns in detail:

Sale of access rights - Network Rail

All passenger and freight train operators who want to use to our network require a track access contract. Our customer teams dealing with each train operator (TOC or FOC) lead the contractual negotiations and the sale of access rights with train operators on the contracts. Our Sale of Access...

www.networkrail.co.uk

 

[RHolmes]

The December 2024 TPE track access application has all the Scarborough trains, ie 17 per day, running through to Manchester Victoria.

Well that's a surprise! Maybe they've been pressured over it.

It’s not surprising, training is now complete to the required level to run a full service between Manchester and Leeds of at least 4 express trains an hour consisting of:

Liverpool to Hull
Liverpool to Newcastle
Manchester to Scarborough
Manchester to Saltburn

There was plans to fully restore the fifth train an hour, the Manchester to Newcastle service, However track access permission hasn’t been granted by Network Rail to do so and plans are being looked at for an additional service between York and Manchester (via Leeds) in its place, although this isn’t guaranteed.

(This is in addition to the hourly Manchester to Huddersfield and what will be the temporary joint operated Leeds to Huddersfield stopping service which form the original sixth service between Manchester and Leeds)

 

[TBSchenker]

This is in addition to the hourly Manchester to Huddersfield and what will be the temporary joint operated Leeds to Huddersfield stopping service which form the original sixth service between Manchester and Leeds)

Isn't the Manchester to Huddersfield local being extended to York via Wakefield to run hourly in December, after a modest increase in June?

 

[NorthWestRover]

This is all good news potentially

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is Scarborough destined to be served only by a York shuttle?

Disappointed to not be able to get through trains from Manchester.

There's a daily through working from Scarborough to Manchester Piccadilly departing at 2245 (SX). On Saturday's it operates at 1711. Also, some trains run on Saturdays from Scarborough to Manchester Victoria.

In the reverse direction, there's a couple of trains which run direct from Manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough at 0442 and also at 0535 during the week or at 0437 only on Saturdays. Also, a number from Manchester
Victoria to Scarborough on Saturdays/Sundays.

 

[Spartacus]

One advantage with having the Scarborough mostly isolated is that it helps timekeeping no end and as a result you don't get services turned back at York or Malton.

 

[Johnny Lewis]

Whereas Saltburn appears to deserve an hourly direct service to Manchester Airport and Middlesbrough has a direct service to London. Poor old Scarborough gets a really bad deal I think. It wouldn't be so bad if the service to York was half-hourly and the second platform at Malton were reinstated to eliminate the bottleneck there.

 

[HST43257]

Whereas Saltburn appears to deserve an hourly direct service to Manchester Airport and Middlesbrough has a direct service to London. Poor old Scarborough gets a really bad deal I think. It wouldn't be so bad if the service to York was half-hourly and the second platform at Malton were reinstated to eliminate the bottleneck there.

It’s not necessarily about what’s deserved, but what’s practical. For simplicity let’s say TPE wanted one of Scarborough and Saltburn to be cut back to York. Which would you go for? The one already on the mainline without a dedicated bay platform, or the one the wrong side of the mainline with a dedicated bay platform? Not only that, but it simply makes sense given the original service pattern. Manchester Airport‘s 2018 services were Middlesborough and Newcastle, and the Airport to Newcastle got cut since the Liverpool to Newcastle service exists, which is the main service on the route, so it was hardly ever like Liverpool to Scarborough would survive the cut.

 

[nuneatonmark]

I'm moving to the Scarborough area soon, so resuming the direct Manchester services would be very useful, especially for access to Leeds, Manchester and Manchester Airport! I have previously used the through services and every time there were many passengers going beyond York, including me! Before Covid there was also advanced plans for a Northern service from York to Scarborough, which will be needed when Haxby opens sometime in the next few years, I assume. The Yorkshire coast and Malton have become very popular over the last few years, 2 trains an hour is needed I believe.

 

[Class 170101]

It wouldn't be so bad if the service to York was half-hourly and the second platform at Malton were reinstated to eliminate the bottleneck there.

Wasn't an hourly proposed by Northern as a Scarborough to York service to give you 2tph between Scarborough and York?

 

[HST43257]

Wasn't an hourly proposed by Northern as a Scarborough to York service to give you 2tph between Scarborough and York?

Yep, then it was binned during covid. Only caveat was that it wouldn’t be half hourly, as that would mean a 3 train shuttle rather than 2 (48ish min journey time)

 

[Djgr]

Could Scarborough be tacked onto the Northern Blackpool trains instead?
Scarborough is a great place but seems an odd terminal for major TPE services.

Ditto Cleethorpes

 

[YorkRailFan]

On Saturdays, the 4:22 from Manchester Airport runs direct to Scarborough, there's the 7:09 Scarborough-Manchester Victoria, 5:20 Liverpool-Scarborough, 8:10 Scarborough-Manchester Victoria, 07:24 Liverpool-Scarborough, 17:11 Scarborough-Manchester Piccadilly, 18:48 Scarborough-Leeds, 17:00 Manchester Victoria-Scarborough, 18:00 Manchester Victoria-Scarborough and 20:43 Scarborough-Manchester Victoria. Obviously journey timings aren't the best.

 

[thealexweb]

Ditto Cleethorpes

Liverpool-Cleethorpes is hourly all day now no?

 

[Djgr]

Liverpool-Cleethorpes is hourly all day now no?

The above point being made about an "odd terminal for major TPE services".

Presumably where the buffers are and operational convenience?

Can't imagine there is much end-to-end traffic?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Scarborough is a great place but seems an odd terminal for major TPE services.

Ditto Cleethorpes

The above point being made about an "odd terminal for major TPE services".

Presumably where the buffers are and operational convenience?

Can't imagine there is much end-to-end traffic?

Probably operationally easier to terminate services at the end of the line at Cleethorpes with its multiple platforms although, having said that, EMR appear to turn round most of their services from Leicester/Lincoln at Grimsby Town.

 

[Killingworth]

Whereas Saltburn appears to deserve an hourly direct service to Manchester Airport and Middlesbrough has a direct service to London. Poor old Scarborough gets a really bad deal I think. It wouldn't be so bad if the service to York was half-hourly and the second platform at Malton were reinstated to eliminate the bottleneck there.

Teesside population about 400k, Scarborough about 60k. Although a lot more probably travel to Scarborough than to Teesside.

 

[TBSchenker]

Regarding Cleethorpes, that's where there is a traincrew depot for TPE and servicing facilities.

Operationally convenient to start and terminate there.

 

[Class 170101]

Probably operationally easier to terminate services at the end of the line at Cleethorpes with its multiple platforms although, having said that, EMR appear to turn round most of their services from Leicester/Lincoln at Grimsby Town.

single line mostly east of Grimsby Town to Cleethorpes but also a bay platform at Grimsby Town to terminate in.