Transpennine Express to Scarborough - Will it always be a shuttle to York?

[Metroman62]

Teesside population about 400k, Scarborough about 60k. Although a lot more probably travel to Scarborough than to Teesside.

The Scarborough line is also used by people changing at Seamer for Filey.

I believe a half hour service would be beneficial, especially in the summer when loadings are high.

I actually prefer the shuttle to York. It is more reliable than through trains and onward travel is not always on TPE serevices.

Perhaps a through service could be to extend the Bridlington/ York service through to Scarborough. This would free up platforms at York currently used by the York / Brid service. There appears to be platform capacity at both Brid and Scarborough

 

[Peter749]

Perhaps a through service could be to extend the Bridlington/ York service through to Scarborough. This would free up platforms at York currently used by the York / Brid service. There appears to be platform capacity at both Brid and Scarborough

What else would you use the bay platforms at York for? The only trains using P1 are these services.
The service from Brid/Hull arrives at xx.48 to xx.58 depending on the hour - so it would go forward just in front of the TPE

One of the services would have to be changed to spread them out but that might not work when TPE reverts to running thru from Manchester.

 

[YorkRailFan]

What else would you use the bay platforms at York for? The only trains using P1 are these services.
The service from Brid/Hull arrives at xx.48 to xx.58 depending on the hour - so it would go forward just in front of the TPE

One of the services would have to be changed to spread them out but that might not work when TPE reverts to running thru from Manchester.

From time to time, the 07:45 York-Leeds service uses P1.

 

[cle]

I think the bays at York is strategically the best, even if threading them in to an eastern-leaning service (ie not to Leeds) might make sense, actually you're taking up the big premium London platform for a piddly DMU.

2tph 7 days a week is a solid service from those bays. And as mentioned, it connects to plenty more beyond TPE at York. Even if Leeds is probably the single biggest source of visitors (I am thinking ex-Scarborough outbound demand is not so critical in these considerations, those residents are only going to one place) - - - - we have to start making these tough conflict removal decisions across the network, to be able to increase frequencies and add new services.

 

[Peter A]

I think the bays at York is strategically the best, even if threading them in to an eastern-leaning service (ie not to Leeds) might make sense, actually you're taking up the big premium London platform for a piddly DMU.

2tph 7 days a week is a solid service from those bays. And as mentioned, it connects to plenty more beyond TPE at York. Even if Leeds is probably the single biggest source of visitors (I am thinking ex-Scarborough outbound demand is not so critical in these considerations, those residents are only going to one place) - - - - we have to start making these tough conflict removal decisions across the network, to be able to increase frequencies and add new services.

Tbf when you look at Northern's departures from York they occupy a through platform all day for terminating services, the Leeds stopper occupies P10 or 11 from :47 to :08 then the second Leeds via Harrogate occupies it between :12 and :42. If the Leeds stopper or Blackpool service were extended to Scarborough it would leave whichever was not extended (presumably the stopper) to occupy P6/7, leaving 10 or 11 free for 20 minutes or so around that time. In an ideal world you'd probs want another bay platform alongside 8 for the 2nd Leeds via Harrogate service, freeing up a through platform for the whole hour, but that's another matter.

For Scarborough, the ideal I'd imagine would be one through service to at least Leeds and one bay service from York to Scarborough, with presumably TPE forming the through service and northern with the accompanying shuttle. If there was ever a possibility to divert the Manchester to Scarborough to provide a second Manchester to Newcastle service instead, I'd suggest that may potentially be a better use of TPE's resources. At which point, you could probably make the case for the Blackpool North to York extending to Scarborough and perhaps a northern shuttle from P2, removing TPE from the equation altogether.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I think the extension of the Leeds-York stopper via Garforth to Scarborough would be best suited. I have doubts on how many passengers would use a Scarborough service from the Harrogate Line.

If there was ever a possibility to divert the Manchester to Scarborough to provide a second Manchester to Newcastle service instead, I'd suggest that may potentially be a better use of TPE's resources. At which point, you could probably make the case for the Blackpool North to York extending to Scarborough and perhaps a northern shuttle from P2, removing TPE from the equation altogether.

Completely agree on another Newcastle-Manchester service, pre-COVID there was a Newcastle-Manchester Airport service which would be nice to have back.

 

[317 forever]

Whereas Saltburn appears to deserve an hourly direct service to Manchester Airport and Middlesbrough has a direct service to London. Poor old Scarborough gets a really bad deal I think. It wouldn't be so bad if the service to York was half-hourly and the second platform at Malton were reinstated to eliminate the bottleneck there.

By way of a consolation, Scarborough still has a more effective service, even if just a York shuttle, than nearby Whitby. Even Bridlington is quite slow to reach from many areas.

 

[blackfive460]

Scarborough still has a more effective service

And a more reliable one than was often the case when all trains ran beyond York.

 

[darylyates17]

The December 2024 TPE track access application has all the Scarborough trains, ie 17 per day, running through to Manchester Victoria.

I know this is off topic so feel free to move this to more suitable tread but will Chat Moss revert to having both Hull and Newcastle services or will it remain as it is with just the Newcastle services?

 

[Peter A]

I know this is off topic so feel free to move this to more suitable tread but will Chat Moss revert to having both Hull and Newcastle services or will it remain as it is with just the Newcastle services?

Liverpool to Hull is returning. Keeping this somewhat on topic, it will mean 4tph on TPE from Manchester Victoria:
-Liverpool to Newcastle
-Liverpool to Hull
-Manchester Airport to Saltburn
-Manchester Victoria to Scarborough

So a return to roughly the pre-Dec 2023 timetable except with the Manchester Piccadilly to Newcastle/Scarborough service replaced by the Manchester Victoria to Scarborough. Not sure if anyone knows the reason for this but as I understand it, this means there's no fast service from Huddersfield into Piccadilly anymore, just the stopper. Also, not sure why the extra two hourly service up to Newcastle hasn't been allowed back either, as the XC Reading to York will only continue to Newcastle every 2 hours when it returns in full swing next May.

 

[GoneSouth]

Could Scarborough be tacked onto the Northern Blackpool trains instead?
Scarborough is a great place but seems an odd terminal for major TPE services.

Not as odd as Saltburn

One advantage with having the Scarborough mostly isolated is that it helps timekeeping no end and as a result you don't get services turned back at York or Malton.

Turning back at Malton was a disgraceful thing to do, dumping passengers at a small station with no option but to wait for the next hourly service with no guarantee it would also not simply just dump and return! Shameful.

 

[Peter A]

Not as odd as Saltburn

Pretty sure that's due to operational convenience more than anything else with it being a tack on after Middlesbrough.

 

[GoneSouth]

Pretty sure that's due to operational convenience more than anything else with it being a tack on after Middlesbrough.

We really should be moving away from the railway running itself for its own convenience at the expense of passengers’ convenience

 

[Peter A]

We really should be moving away from the railway running itself for its own convenience at the expense of passengers’ convenience

I don't see how additional services for Redcar and Saltburn are at the expense of passengers convenience? Extending the service from Middlesbrough to Saltburn will certainly be a huge convenience to those who previously would have had to change at Middlesbrough. Does Scarborough deserve a direct TPE service to Leeds/Manchester more than Saltburn, I'd argue yes - but the Saltburn service is an extension of the Middlesbrough service, for both operational AND passenger convenience, whereas the Scarborough branch one might suggest is not necessarily worthy of a direct TPE service in its own right, unlike Middlesbrough

 

[TBSchenker]

Liverpool to Hull is returning. Keeping this somewhat on topic, it will mean 4tph on TPE from Manchester Victoria:
-Liverpool to Newcastle
-Liverpool to Hull
-Manchester Airport to Saltburn
-Manchester Victoria to Scarborough

So a return to roughly the pre-Dec 2023 timetable except with the Manchester Piccadilly to Newcastle/Scarborough service replaced by the Manchester Victoria to Scarborough. Not sure if anyone knows the reason for this but as I understand it, this means there's no fast service from Huddersfield into Piccadilly anymore, just the stopper. Also, not sure why the extra two hourly service up to Newcastle hasn't been allowed back either, as the XC Reading to York will only continue to Newcastle every 2 hours when it returns in full swing next May.

Worth bearing in mind the Piccadilly-Huddersfield-Wakefield-York service, expected to run hourly in December 2024, only has a time penalty of 10 or so minutes from Manchester to York compared to the Airport to Saltburn service.

Notwithstanding the Leeds traffic, maybe seat revenue can shift some passengers onto this route to take the pressure of the Saltburn service.

 

[billio]

Perhaps the new North Yorkshire/York mayor might be able to get some movement on improving the York - Scarborough services as it seems strange a large tourist town like Scarborough can't have as good a service as Redcar/Saltburn, which are significantly smaller.

We really should be moving away from the railway running itself for its own convenience at the expense of passengers’ convenience

Referring to TPE trains to Saltburn, whilst it may be an operational convenience, for me its a very pleasant passenger convenience as I like visiting Saltburn from time to time.

 

[yorksrob]

By way of a consolation, Scarborough still has a more effective service, even if just a York shuttle, than nearby Whitby. Even Bridlington is quite slow to reach from many areas.

And Whitby has funding to improve the service, yet the stakeholders seem in no hurry to draw down on these improvements.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Keeping Scarborough services isolated from the wider TP routes drastically reduces the amount of electrification needed to allow TP to operate using pure electrics (Liverpool - Newcastle) once TRU has been completed!

I think Scarborough should be wired there are other lines that have much more value in doing so long before Scarborough!

Until it is electrified I would refrain from even considering about through services.

 

[swt_passenger]

Keeping Scarborough services isolated from the wider TP routes drastically reduces the amount of electrification needed to allow TP to operate using pure electrics (Liverpool - Newcastle) once TRU has been completed!

I think Scarborough should be wired there are other lines that have much more value in doing so long before Scarborough!

Until it is electrified I would refrain from even considering about through services.

They’re not being kept isolated though. The hourly through services to/from Man Vic are known to be returning in December.

 

[Halifaxlad]

They’re not being kept isolated though. The hourly through services to/from Man Vic are known to be returning in December.

My point was merely are suggestion highlighting the benefits of keeping them isolated.

I know they are returning but there is a few years yet until we will be able to have pure electric trains all the way from Liverpool to York.

 

[stevieinselby]

Keeping Scarborough services isolated from the wider TP routes drastically reduces the amount of electrification needed to allow TP to operate using pure electrics (Liverpool - Newcastle) once TRU has been completed!

I think Scarborough should be wired there are other lines that have much more value in doing so long before Scarborough!

Until it is electrified I would refrain from even considering about through services.

What is the likelihood of TPX having an entirely electric fleet in the next 30 years, given that they've currently got 19 bi-mode trains that are only about 6 years old? Once the core is electrified and maybe Hull, they can get new electric trains for those routes and move the bi-mode trains to the Scarborough and Teesside services, so it won't matter if the eastern ends of those lines are not wired up.

 

[GoneSouth]

What is the likelihood of TPX having an entirely electric fleet in the next 30 years, given that they've currently got 19 bi-mode trains that are only about 6 years old? Once the core is electrified and maybe Hull, they can get new electric trains for those routes and move the bi-mode trains to the Scarborough and Teesside services, so it won't matter if the eastern ends of those lines are not wired up.

Have to agree, they don’t need to rush into electrifying Scarborough as they already have electric trains which magically become diesel trains at York so can still operate the through services, exactly the scenario these were designed for.

The fact that they just binned off perfectly good stock which could have been used with either electric, diesel or even bimode locos is disappointing though.

It will be good to see Scarbrough connected up to the TPX network properly again, the trains always looked busy when I was in York or Leeds. Just hope the terrible service over the past couple of years hasn’t completely killed the demand.

Are there any rolling stock plans for when the TRU upgrade is complete or will we have a ridiculous situation of their current diesel fleet rumbling on for years without using the new electric wires?

 

[swt_passenger]

Are there any rolling stock plans for when the TRU upgrade is complete or will we have a ridiculous situation of their current diesel fleet rumbling on for years without using the new electric wires?

There’s a DfT proposal for 29 new trains:

29 new trains for Transpennine Express ?

In notes to todays Government announcemen on £3.9bn for Transpennine routes is It will support TransPennine Express in engaging with manufacturers on options for up to 29 new trains to replace the existing diesel fleet, in addition to new trains for local stopping services operated by...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Liverpool to Hull is returning. Keeping this somewhat on topic, it will mean 4tph on TPE from Manchester Victoria:
-Liverpool to Newcastle
-Liverpool to Hull
-Manchester Airport to Saltburn
-Manchester Victoria to Scarborough

So a return to roughly the pre-Dec 2023 timetable except with the Manchester Piccadilly to Newcastle/Scarborough service replaced by the Manchester Victoria to Scarborough. Not sure if anyone knows the reason for this but as I understand it, this means there's no fast service from Huddersfield into Piccadilly anymore, just the stopper. Also, not sure why the extra two hourly service up to Newcastle hasn't been allowed back either, as the XC Reading to York will only continue to Newcastle every 2 hours when it returns in full swing next May.

There will be fast services from Huddersfield to Piccadilly, in the form of the Airport services... they'll just go the "long way round" via Ordsall & Castlefield!

 

[Peter A]

Worth bearing in mind the Piccadilly-Huddersfield-Wakefield-York service, expected to run hourly in December 2024, only has a time penalty of 10 or so minutes from Manchester to York compared to the Airport to Saltburn service.

Notwithstanding the Leeds traffic, maybe seat revenue can shift some passengers onto this route to take the pressure of the Saltburn service.

There will be fast services from Huddersfield to Piccadilly, in the form of the Airport services... they'll just go the "long way round" via Ordsall & Castlefield!

Although both the Wakefield service and Saltburn service will continue to serve Piccadilly, and will take admittedly only around 10 minutes or so longer between there and Huddersfield, there will no longer be an express service from Huddersfield into Piccadilly and overall it seems like Victoria becomes the TPE hub, home to all four of the core trains per hour across the pennines.

 

[mike57]

It will be good to see Scarbrough connected up to the TPX network properly again, the trains always looked busy when I was in York or Leeds. Just hope the terrible service over the past couple of years hasn’t completely killed the demand.

There are two problems with this:

As soon as the through service is introduced reliabiltity plummetts, late running, and even worse short running terminating at Malton or not even making it out of York. This means problems for connecting passengers at Seamer and huge gaps in service from Seamer and Scarbourough. There have been several occasions with 3hr gaps in a nominal hourly service, which really renders the 'service' unuseable.

Second problem is that since the decision to route everything through Man Vic connections to Manchester Airport are more difficult (and slower), with at least one extra change, and as there are lot of destinations which need a change at Piccadilly which are now more difficult, and really nothing has got easier.

As a regular user I would rather have a reilable shuttle changing at York than an unreliable through service to a Manchester station that still means another change for a lot of journeys, and for journeys where my change is at York anyway (London being the main one) it makes no odds.

TPE also seems to be falling back into the lots of shorter trains trap, really there shouldn't be any 3 car units on the Leeds Manchester core.

From a Scarborough point of view the pre May 2018 timetable worked much better, using Victoria as a hub adds at least 30 mins to a lot of journeys, and its a dump of a station as well, dirty & fumey.

The 2018 service meltdown meant a lot of people switched to other means of getting around, In 2018 I noticed a spike in the early commuter traffic on the A64 after the meltdown, then COVID and further problems once COVID was over. In all 5 years of dreadful service.

Travelling south we now frequently change in Hull rather than the quicker but less reliable journey via Seamer & York.

TPE really have a lot of work to do to restore confidence, and I suspect that a lot of the regular user are lost for good.

 

[Greybeard33]

Liverpool to Hull is returning. Keeping this somewhat on topic, it will mean 4tph on TPE from Manchester Victoria:
-Liverpool to Newcastle
-Liverpool to Hull
-Manchester Airport to Saltburn
-Manchester Victoria to Scarborough

So a return to roughly the pre-Dec 2023 timetable except with the Manchester Piccadilly to Newcastle/Scarborough service replaced by the Manchester Victoria to Scarborough. Not sure if anyone knows the reason for this but as I understand it, this means there's no fast service from Huddersfield into Piccadilly anymore, just the stopper. Also, not sure why the extra two hourly service up to Newcastle hasn't been allowed back either, as the XC Reading to York will only continue to Newcastle every 2 hours when it returns in full swing next May.

I suspect the capacity of the eastern platforms at Piccadilly could be a factor in this. Many Northern services that used to be 2-car are now 3- or 4-car and some TPE services are becoming 6-car instead of 3-car. This makes stacking multiple trains in a platform more problematic.

I think it was always the intention to return to 4tph between Victoria and Leeds. The pre-Dec 2023 timetable was an interim step towards that.

Although both the Wakefield service and Saltburn service will continue to serve Piccadilly, and will take admittedly only around 10 minutes or so longer between there and Huddersfield, there will no longer be an express service from Huddersfield into Piccadilly and overall it seems like Victoria becomes the TPE hub, home to all four of the core trains per hour across the pennines.

Victoria can hardly be described as the TPE hub when neither the South Route nor the WCML services call there.

From a Scarborough point of view the pre May 2018 timetable worked much better, using Victoria as a hub adds at least 30 mins to a lot of journeys, and its a dump of a station as well, dirty & fumey.

The pre May 2018 Scarborough to Liverpool via Piccadilly service may have been good for its users. But it used a disproportionate amount of Piccadilly station capacity, through crossing the Fast lines in the station throat.

 

[spyinthesky]

If you could take TPE away from Scarborough could Northern run a circular YRK-SCA-HUL-YRK and the other way still using just the bays at York?

 

[zwk500]

If you could take TPE away from Scarborough could Northern run a circular YRK-SCA-HUL-YRK and the other way still using just the bays at York?

In theory yes, but you wouldn't really advertise it as a singular service.

 

[mike57]

The pre May 2018 Scarborough to Liverpool via Piccadilly service may have been good for its users. But it used a disproportionate amount of Piccadilly station capacity, through crossing the Fast lines in the station throat.

I agree that carrying on to Liverpool, whilst useful to me caused problems, my thinking would be to run via Guide Bridge and terminate in the low numbered platforms at Piccadilly, still retains Man Picc onward connections, but avoids the conflicts and keeps it away from Castlefield.

If you could take TPE away from Scarborough could Northern run a circular YRK-SCA-HUL-YRK and the other way still using just the bays at York?

You could, but I am not sure if you should. Current Scarborough - Sheffield service gives good connectivity for the coast at Doncaster and Sheffield, you would lose that and gain a roundabout service to York for Bridlington, Filey and stops between. The infrastructure (long single line section Bridlington to Hunmanby) would not allow 2 tph between Scarborough and Bridlington. However I do think Northern would be the right operator for the York Scarborough shuttle, and maybe join a few peak time services with York Leeds services to give a through service to Leeds, which is a commuter destination, although less so than pre 2018.

I suspect the capacity of the eastern platforms at Piccadilly could be a factor in this.

I would have thought a 'Platform 0' at Piccadilly would be possible without too much work and an easy win, but of course as soon as you start altering infrastructure costs seem to get out of control very quickly.