TransPennine prosecution?

[Letter]

10 September
Travelling from Leeds to Manchester Victoria, I had my ticket checked and unfortunately I was on a Trans Pennine train with a Northern Only ticket (valid for the journey but not the operator). Said I would get off at the next stop to catch the correct train but the next stop was Manchester and the inspector/conductor asked to see my ID and took a picture of that and my ticket.

12 September
Receive note from Royal Mail saying they have failed to deliver a letter.

13 September
Receive another note saying failed to deliver letter

16 September
Receive envelope ripped up in plastic bag from sorting office saying “sorry the enclosed item has reached you in this condition”

2 October
Receive letter (dated 25 September) stating it is from the prosecuting authority for TransPennine Express Railway alleging I am in contravention of Railway Regulations etc. and possibly liable for a fine of up to £1000 and criminal record, naturally has me quite worried.

Is this a penalty fare or is this different?
Has this already been escalated to prosecution?
What is the best way to respond to a letter like this when I never received the first letter?
This doesn’t have any indication that it is a small fine and I am wondering if responding and admitting guilt I could be liable for the £1000 or even a criminal record, is this likely?

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

It's unfortunate that Royal Mail damaged the original letter but thankfully Transpennine are giving you another opportunity to reply. Not all train companies are as forgiving!

As you now realise you didn't have a valid ticket for the train you travelled on which is why your details were taken. I suggest replying saying that you did not receive their initial letter due to it being damaged in transit by Royal Mail (I would enlose a photo of the envelope and Royal Mail's apology leaflet) and say that you are grateful for the opportunity to respond to their follow-up letter.

I would mention the following points in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Keep your reply short and concise, don't give a sob story. Transpennine are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

If you are offered a settlement the amount tends to be around £100 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[kkong]

16 September
Receive envelope ripped up in plastic bag from sorting office saying “sorry the enclosed item has reached you in this condition”

I'm curious as to how the torn envelope in your picture reached your address, considering there is no address visible?

Was there nothing else at all inside the envelope or the plastic bag?

 

[furlong]

I'm curious as to how the torn envelope in your picture reached your address, considering there is no address visible?

The magic of the tracking associated with the new stamps perhaps? (And the tracking code printed on the envelope)

 

[island]

The magic of the tracking associated with the new stamps perhaps? (And the tracking code printed on the envelope)

Likely the latter – the orange lines printed onto the envelope are an RM4SCC barcode which will have been printed onto the envelope at first sorting, and whilst not a “tracking code”, contains enough detail to uniquely identify an address.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I'm curious as to how the torn envelope in your picture reached your address, considering there is no address visible?

Was there nothing else at all inside the envelope or the plastic bag?

Usually when a mail sorting machine jams, due to the speed it works at, it takes several items into the jam with it! It's not always possible to know what came from where. I'd assume the original letter had both the senders and recipients addresses on it. If the recipients address was destroyed in the jam it possibly got returned to sender, hence why they wrote again. Of course both addresses may have been destroyed and the rest of the letter would then be confidential destroyed.
The envelope would have sorting marks on it to get it delivered if it had been sorted prior to jamming, although the postie can't read the barcode so there's usually a sticker on the apology bag.

 

[75A]

Good old Post Office.

 

[WesternLancer]

10 September
Travelling from Leeds to Manchester Victoria, I had my ticket checked and unfortunately I was on a Trans Pennine train with a Northern Only ticket (valid for the journey but not the operator). Said I would get off at the next stop to catch the correct train but the next stop was Manchester and the inspector/conductor asked to see my ID and took a picture of that and my ticket.

12 September
Receive note from Royal Mail saying they have failed to deliver a letter.

13 September
Receive another note saying failed to deliver letter

16 September
Receive envelope ripped up in plastic bag from sorting office saying “sorry the enclosed item has reached you in this condition”

2 October
Receive letter (dated 25 September) stating it is from the prosecuting authority for TransPennine Express Railway alleging I am in contravention of Railway Regulations etc. and possibly liable for a fine of up to £1000 and criminal record, naturally has me quite worried.

Is this a penalty fare or is this different?
Has this already been escalated to prosecution?
What is the best way to respond to a letter like this when I never received the first letter?
This doesn’t have any indication that it is a small fine and I am wondering if responding and admitting guilt I could be liable for the £1000 or even a criminal record, is this likely?

View attachment 144000View attachment 144002

To get back from the discussion about how the letter got to you - you need to respond to this ASAP now because of the delay already in getting it to you.

Reply along lines as posted above by @Hadders of course.

From your original post I wonder if you were assuming you would have got issued with a Penalty Fare - PF - (as is often detailed on posters at stations)? I am not sure of the reason why Trans Pennine staff did not do that - there are various possibilities including that the staff who took your details on the train is not authorised to issue PFs. Which leaves the staff little choice but to either issue a report that results in a letter like this or to ignore your non-valid ticket and 'let you off'. They must have opted for the former.

Re your questions:


1) Is this a penalty fare or is this different?

It's not a Penalty Fare - it's report re potential fare evasion (not sure the official name of this) - so important to engage and seek to avoid that happening - hence the need to reply ASAP

2) Has this already been escalated to prosecution?

No - almost certainly not yet - this is them asking for 'your side of the stary' before they escalate it or not

3) What is the best way to respond to a letter like this when I never received the first letter?

See post from Hadders above of course

4) This doesn’t have any indication that it is a small fine and I am wondering if responding and admitting guilt I could be liable for the £1000 or even a criminal record, is this likely?

Only if it goes to prosecution. Those details are I think the maximum sentence a court could impose (I suspect rarely gets to that level unless you were a very persistent and deliberate fare evader), but they probably already have enough info to confirm you are guilty on the basis that you were on a train without a valid ticket (albeit the wrong operators train but technically that is enough) and you probably accepted that when your ticket was checked (ie admitted it already). But by responding as Hadders says you make the point that this was a mistake in catching the wrong train (unless you told staff on the day something else I suppose)

 

[Haywain]

Good old Post Office.

Royal Mail, not Post Office.

 

[Letter]

Yes, I just jumped on the wrong train as it was the next available, not realising my ticket was for Northern Only. I pleaded ignorance with the conductor and said I wasn't happy to purchase another ticket and she took my details but I was cooperative and not at all difficult / aggressive I just said I wasn't aware and agreed to get off at the next stop but unfortunately this was the final stop.

I am thinking the best course of action is to draft a reply tonight and send off tomorrow, explain the situation and accept the blame saying it was a genuine mistake and that I have learnt it is best to double check the ticket is valid for the particular operator prior to travelling. I will also offer an explanation for my delay in responding, including pictures of the damaged letter and express my gratitude at having been given the opportunity to offer my side of the story. This will hopefully avoid the fine and can be settled out of court.

Thank you everyone for your help, I'm amazed how quick this got a response.

 

[75A]

Royal Mail, not Post Office.

Fair nuff

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes, I just jumped on the wrong train as it was the next available, not realising my ticket was for Northern Only. I pleaded ignorance with the conductor and said I wasn't happy to purchase another ticket and she took my details but I was cooperative and not at all difficult / aggressive I just said I wasn't aware and agreed to get off at the next stop but unfortunately this was the final stop.

I am thinking the best course of action is to draft a reply tonight and send off tomorrow, explain the situation and accept the blame saying it was a genuine mistake and that I have learnt it is best to double check the ticket is valid for the particular operator prior to travelling. I will also offer an explanation for my delay in responding, including pictures of the damaged letter and express my gratitude at having been given the opportunity to offer my side of the story. This will hopefully avoid the fine and can be settled out of court.

Thank you everyone for your help, I'm amazed how quick this got a response.

Yes, that sort of draft is the way to go IMHO (post up here if you want to see if anyone can check it before you send it off) - obv focus on the fact that you made a genuine mistake and didn't realise the ticket would not be valid when you boarded the train.

Unless you are on their radar for previous ticket violations (intentional or unintentional) it would seem extremely unlikely that this would progress to prosecution so long as they hear back from you.

The annoying thing is that you may get charged the full Anytime Single fare + some admin fee, for your mistake - which will, I fear, cost more than the the Penalty Fare (which is new ticket cost + £100 Penalty reduced to £50 penalty if paid promptly).

FWIW my view on these train (or operator) specific Advance Fares is that unless they are being sold at a substantial discount they are not worth sacrificing the flexibility of other types of ticket - but of course that is a trade off to be made by each purchaser based on how they value time / speed of journey and the flexibility they need. No doubt at purchase you will have been given various warnings about their validity but that's water under the bridge now.

If you don't get the outcome you need of course do return here for more advice as things progress as people will be happy to help.

 

[EZJ]

Unfortunately Transpennine sees massive amounts of passengers using Northern only tickets on their services and it's something they are cracking down upon. I'm not doubting your account but in 99% of cases passengers tell staff they were unaware they couldn't use a ticket that is clearly marked Northern only on a TPE service, also numerous announcements are made plus it is regularly displayed on the in carriage screens too. I would take the given advice and just chalk it up as an expensive lesson.

 

[John R]

If you were offered the option of buying a correct ticket when the issue emerged and refused then I suggest another lesson to learn is to take any option that resolves itself on the train (eg penalty fare if offered) than one that gets referred offline, as the latter is likely to be more complex and expensive.

 

[Letter]

Draft reply before I send off if anyone can suggest anything to change:

****************

Dear Sir / Madam,

I’m writing to confirm my involvement in the incident in question. Apologies for the delayed response, I have only just received the letter due to a Royal Mail sorting error (please see photos of damaged envelope below). Thank you for giving me the opportunity to respond with a follow up.

I am very sorry for my error in judgement getting on the wrong train. Whilst I did have a valid ticket for the journey, it was with a different provider and I failed to check that my ticket was valid for that particular train, just that I was travelling to the correct destination. I now fully understand the importance of checking that the ticket corresponds to the train provider before you board and I will ensure to do so in future.

I hope we can settle this matter without the need for court action. I hope you can take into consideration that this is my first time being involved in a dispute with yourselves and that it was a genuine and honest mistake with no intention to disobey your laws. Please also consider the fact that I hadn’t received the contents of the first letter and have made every effort to resolve the situation immediately after receiving the second.

Thank you,


***************

Then a picture will be at the bottom of the ripped up envelope.

Someone I know that worked in the past for TPE had suggested there was a family emergency I needed to get back for and was in a rush so didn't check but not sure if it's the best idea?

 

[Haywain]

Someone I know that worked in the past for TPE had suggested there was a family emergency I needed to get back for and was in a rush so didn't check but not sure if it's the best idea?

It's a very poor idea.

 

[AlterEgo]

Someone I know that worked in the past for TPE had suggested there was a family emergency I needed to get back for and was in a rush so didn't check but not sure if it's the best idea?

Nobody here is going to be stupid enough to recommend that you tell lies to them.

 

[EZJ]

Someone I know that worked in the past for TPE had suggested there was a family emergency I needed to get back for and was in a rush so didn't check but not sure if it's the best idea?

Awful idea, please ignore them.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Dear Sir / Madam,

I’m writing to confirm my involvement in the incident in question. Apologies for the delayed response, I have only just received the letter due to a Royal Mail sorting error (please see photos of damaged envelope below). Thank you for giving me the opportunity to respond with a follow up.

I am very sorry for my error in judgement getting on the wrong train. Whilst I did have a valid ticket for the journey, it was with a different provider and I failed to check that my ticket was valid for that particular train, just that I was travelling to the correct destination. I now fully understand the importance of checking that the ticket corresponds to the train provider before you board and I will ensure to do so in future.

I hope we can settle this matter without the need for court action. I hope you can take into consideration that this is my first time being involved in a dispute with yourselves and that it was a genuine and honest mistake with no intention to disobey your laws. Please also consider the fact that I hadn’t received the contents of the first letter and have made every effort to resolve the situation immediately after receiving the second.

Thank you,

I've suggested what might be a rather pedantic change in that you didn't have a *valid* ticket for the train you caught.