Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[Bald Rick]

Indeed that's why the politicians need to make their mind up about HS3 one way or the other, because if HS3 were to go ahead then I'm nor sure we need this scheme certainly in this form, we could end up spending vast amounts upgrading this route only for it to be superseded by HS3 as the main TPE route.

Decisions on NPR (not HS3, please) are years away. The Transpennine upgrade could easily be complete before a final decision on NPR is taken (if it gets that far). Meanwhile nothing gets better.

‘Just get on with it’ is my advice.

 

[37424]

Decisions on NPR (not HS3, please) are years away. The Transpennine upgrade could easily be complete before a final decision on NPR is taken (if it gets that far). Meanwhile nothing gets better.

‘Just get on with it’ is my advice.

Well if it takes that long to make a decision on HS3/NPR whatever its called this month I would suggest it would be unlikely to go ahead anyway.

The scheme as proposed is one of the more easier sections to upgrade in the manner suggested but its still high cost, and its going cause substancial disruption to the local area when its built which wont be very popular that's for sure, and even then you will still of course have a two track railway with stopping trains between Dewsbury and Leeds which is likely to remain so as upgrading that section to 4 tracks would be a huge cost.

 

[edwin_m]

While I was at the event at the football stadium in Huddersfield yesterday, I mentioned the HS3 line and it was explained to me, that it is unclear at the present time, which route HS3 will take, or if HS3 will be constructed and so the Huddersfield to Westtown project, etc, is going ahead without taking account of what might or might not happen with the HS3 idea.
I was rather hoping that they might know if there was any possibility of a HS3 interchange station at Dewsbury, or something like that for example, as the area would really benefit from improved transport links. The useful, Wakefield to Bradford line was closed in the 1960's and today, much the of the area would benefit from some decent regeneration projects

Indeed that's why the politicians need to make their mind up about HS3 one way or the other, because if HS3 were to go ahead then I'm nor sure we need this scheme certainly in this form, we could end up spending vast amounts upgrading this route only for it to be superseded by HS3 as the main TPE route.

Decisions on NPR (not HS3, please) are years away. The Transpennine upgrade could easily be complete before a final decision on NPR is taken (if it gets that far). Meanwhile nothing gets better.

‘Just get on with it’ is my advice.

The money (if there is any money) seems to be on NPR going via Bradford, so unless something changes radically it won't be anywhere near Dewsbury and probably not near anywhere else on the existing transpennine route east of Huddersfield. There's probably a good case to provide better services for Huddersfield etc in the long term even if the main Manchester-Leeds trains take a different route.

Well if it takes that long to make a decision on HS3/NPR whatever its called this month I would suggest it would be unlikely to go ahead anyway.

The scheme as proposed is one of the more easier sections to upgrade in the manner suggested but its still high cost, and its going cause substancial disruption to the local area when its built which wont be very popular that's for sure, and even then you will still of course have a two track railway with stopping trains between Dewsbury and Leeds which is likely to remain so as upgrading that section to 4 tracks would be a huge cost.

Having four tracks all the way from Huddersfield nearly to Dewsbury provides an opportunity for faster trains to overtake slower ones, something that's very difficult with the few short loops that exist today.

 

[37424]

The money (if there is any money) seems to be on NPR going via Bradford, so unless something changes radically it won't be anywhere near Dewsbury and probably not near anywhere else on the existing transpennine route east of Huddersfield. There's probably a good case to provide better services for Huddersfield etc in the long term even if the main Manchester-Leeds trains take a different route.

Having four tracks all the way from Huddersfield nearly to Dewsbury provides an opportunity for faster trains to overtake slower ones, something that's very difficult with the few short loops that exist today.

NPR may go via Bradford but without the majority of TPE through traffic I'm sure the route as it is could provide a more than good enough service for Huddersfield and Dewsbury, as for overtaking slower trains well yes this new scheme will allow more scope for doing that although whether you need some of the more costly aspects for that such as the grade separated junction onto the Wakefield line I wonder how additional capacity that actually gives? and improved speed.

If NPR went ahead then really you should be looking at the existing route for local services and freight rather than enhanced speed.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

NPR may go via Bradford but without the majority of TPE through traffic I'm sure the route as it is could provide a more than good enough service for Huddersfield and Dewsbury, as for overtaking slower trains well yes this new scheme will allow more scope for doing that although whether you need some of the more costly aspects for that such as the grade separated junction onto the Wakefield line I wonder how additional capacity that actually gives?

It will remove all the current conflicts at Thornhill, including the bi-directional line between Mirfield East and Thornhill LNW junctions. This also means pathing freights through there becomes easier.

Not sure why the Wakefield to Bradford line was mentioned, as that route was pretty much perpendicular to the one under discussion. The frequent 268/268A bus seems adequate for the demand between those two economically insignificant cities.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well if it takes that long to make a decision on HS3/NPR whatever its called this month I would suggest it would be unlikely to go ahead anyway.

It took a decade to make a final decision on HS2, no reason NPR will be any different. Or rather there is - and that is the case for NPR will, I guess, be comparatively appalling.

 

[SuperNova]

I don’t think there is room. The new tracks are right up against the old wagon lift. Which is used as a road tunnel for road access to Brian Jackson House.

I suppose nothing is impossible.

The new bay platform in Rochdale was built to reverse services rather than Manchester Victoria. You could do the same by adding a centre bay anywhere to the West of Huddersfield. I think even Lockwood would work. Or a new station.

Very good point. Marsden would make the most sense - I know there's a lot of clamour from the rail user group for 2x stoppers an hour Man - Hud but Leeds to Marsden would make more sense.

 

[Starmill]

It took a decade to make a final decision on HS2, no reason NPR will be any different. Or rather there is - and that is the case for NPR will, I guess, be comparatively appalling.

It's going to be pants. But still. Funny timing too because plenty of interesting HS2 documents out this morning!

 

[SuperNova]

Indeed that's why the politicians need to make their mind up about HS3 one way or the other, because if HS3 were to go ahead then I'm nor sure we need this scheme certainly in this form, we could end up spending vast amounts upgrading this route only for it to be superseded by HS3 as the main TPE route.

This is such a lazy argument, one that ironically Andy Burnham has tried to make.

1) HS3 is still only an idea, TfN may want to get spades in the ground this decade but that's never going to happen. It won't be for at least 25 years until HS3 is ready, but even then there's so many issues around the project, most notably around how services go through Manchester and whether or not to go through Bradford (which would add significant cost to the project due to the geological challenges.

2) Network Rail have been putting off major upgrades to this route for a while, which is why the track around Batley/Morley is pretty poor. This route will need upgrading one way or another.

3) Decarbonisation. This route is prime to be electrified (although not confirmed to be done in its entirety yet) so bridges would need moving, stations redesigned etc. Get on with it now!

 

[37424]

This is such a lazy argument, one that ironically Andy Burnham has tried to make.

1) HS3 is still only an idea, TfN may want to get spades in the ground this decade but that's never going to happen. It won't be for at least 25 years until HS3 is ready, but even then there's so many issues around the project, most notably around how services go through Manchester and whether or not to go through Bradford (which would add significant cost to the project due to the geological challenges.

2) Network Rail have been putting off major upgrades to this route for a while, which is why the track around Batley/Morley is pretty poor. This route will need upgrading one way or another.

3) Decarbonisation. This route is prime to be electrified (although not confirmed to be done in its entirety yet) so bridges would need moving, stations redesigned etc. Get on with it now!

I don't think its a lazy argument at all, essentially we could end up spending vast amounts of money upgrading this line to a gold standard only then to spend huge amounts of money again for NPR, while if we got a decision on NPR then yes we still spend some money on upgrading it but perhaps not to a gold standard.

If a decision on NPR isn't made for 10 years then I certainly doubt it will go ahead potentially having already spent a lot of money on existing route upgrade plus we will have a better idea of post covid traffic, and any delays and cost escalations to HS2.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Something needs to be done sooner. We cant keep putting stuff off because of what might be.

 

[Meerkat]

Which bit wouldn't be very useful even if NPR gets built?
Grade separation and more tracks helps separate timetables and increase flexibility, and it’s rare that stakeholders don’t have ambitions to fill whatever capacity becomes available!

 

[Mollman]

I don't think its a lazy argument at all, essentially we could end up spending vast amounts of money upgrading this line to a gold standard only then to spend huge amounts of money again for NPR, while if we got a decision on NPR then yes we still spend some money on upgrading it but perhaps not to a gold standard.

If a decision on NPR isn't made for 10 years then I certainly doubt it will go ahead potentially having already spent a lot of money on existing route upgrade plus we will have a better idea of post covid traffic, and any delays and cost escalations to HS2.

Post NPR/HS3 I'd still expect there to be a 20 or 15 minute Manchester - (Stalybridge) - Huddersfield - Dewsbury - Leeds service that would make good use of the upgrades proposed. Only difference is 1 or 2 an hour might stop at Mirfield so provision for fast line platforms could be wise.

 

[37424]

Something needs to be done sooner. We cant keep putting stuff off because of what might be.

Why it could be years before passenger numbers are back to pre covid levels and country doesn't have a bottomless pit of money, one or the other in my view.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Low carbon and Covid is a respiratory disease perhaps so less diesel fumes please. ?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Low carbon and Covid is a respiratory disease perhaps so less diesel fumes please. ?

You're our resident science boffin - didn't I see something about COVID sticking to soot emissions, with the suggestion that lower levels of air pollution might help reduce the spread of the disease ? I might be imagining it, or it might be made up science, but I'm sure I read somewhere that diesel particulate matter has been found in the brains of Alzheimers or other dementia patients, with the suggestion it might be responsible.

We've certainly known for a long term the risk of soot (particulate matter) causing lung disease and reducing lung function in inner city school children when compared with a comparable cohort elsewhere.

We've been arguing for quite some time that electrification isn't just a carbon issue, whilst that's where the money can come from thanks to government decarbonisation funding strategies, we certainly think it's likely that electrification will also, indirectly, reduce instances of respiratory disorder.

 

[squizzler]

If a decision on NPR isn't made for 10 years then I certainly doubt it will go ahead potentially having already spent a lot of money on existing route upgrade plus we will have a better idea of post covid traffic, and any delays and cost escalations to HS2.

Whilst you make a valid point, may I suggest that you are not taking into account the scale of modal shift that is envisioned to take place from motor vehicle to rail? The expectation is still that rail traffic will double (at least) in the next quarter century as it did in the last. Since the southeast is nearer to having its demand for rail satisfied the modal shift in regions such as the north are likely to be greater than the national average - more than 100% growth. This growth easily justifies another transpennine route.

 

[YorksLad12]

You're our resident science boffin - didn't I see something about COVID sticking to soot emissions, with the suggestion that lower levels of air pollution might help reduce the spread of the disease ? I might be imagining it, or it might be made up science, but I'm sure I read somewhere that diesel particulate matter has been found in the brains of Alzheimers or other dementia patients, with the suggestion it might be responsible.

We've certainly known for a long term the risk of soot (particulate matter) causing lung disease and reducing lung function in inner city school children when compared with a comparable cohort elsewhere.

We've been arguing for quite some time that electrification isn't just a carbon issue, whilst that's where the money can come from thanks to government decarbonisation funding strategies, we certainly think it's likely that electrification will also, indirectly, reduce instances of respiratory disorder.

Ignoring the obvious joke: no, you didn't imagine it, it was in yesterday's Graun:

Air pollution particles in young brains linked to Alzheimer's damage

Exclusive: if discovery is confirmed it will have global implications as 90% of people breathe dirty air

www.theguardian.com

 

[37424]

You're our resident science boffin - didn't I see something about COVID sticking to soot emissions, with the suggestion that lower levels of air pollution might help reduce the spread of the disease ? I might be imagining it, or it might be made up science, but I'm sure I read somewhere that diesel particulate matter has been found in the brains of Alzheimers or other dementia patients, with the suggestion it might be responsible.

We've certainly known for a long term the risk of soot (particulate matter) causing lung disease and reducing lung function in inner city school children when compared with a comparable cohort elsewhere.

We've been arguing for quite some time that electrification isn't just a carbon issue, whilst that's where the money can come from thanks to government decarbonisation funding strategies, we certainly think it's likely that electrification will also, indirectly, reduce instances of respiratory disorder.

I'm not saying we shouldn't look at electrification of this route, but what I am saying that a substancial part of the cost of upgrading of the route between Huddersfield and Dewsbury are infrastructure upgrades to improve capacity and whether some or all of those would be justified if NPR got the go ahead quickly, I would also consider that if NPR got the go ahead as whether other routes might become a higher priority for electrification

As for the air pollution argument for electrification I'm always skeptical of that argument because the amount of Rail Diesel pollution compared to Road Vehicle pollution must be small, and in terms of removing it I wouldn't be surprised if it was more effective spending billions getting people to switch to electric vehicles rather than billions on electrifying the railway.

Whilst you make a valid point, may I suggest that you are not taking into account the scale of modal shift that is envisioned to take place from motor vehicle to rail? The expectation is still that rail traffic will double (at least) in the next quarter century as it did in the last. Since the southeast is nearer to having its demand for rail satisfied the modal shift in regions such as the north are likely to be greater than the national average - more than 100% growth. This growth easily justifies another transpennine route.

I think that remains to be seen the modal shift I am seeing at the moment in the North is back to the motor vehicle, away from public transport. That may only be temporary in the present situation, or perhaps some of it will stick for the long term.

 

[quantinghome]

I think that the Huddersfield-Dewsbury upgrade would be worthwhile even if NPR had already been given the go-ahead. The long term 'mega' trend is the climate emergency. Covid's effects may last a year or two, but then passenger numbers will come roaring back. We have got to get a substantial modal shift away from cars to public transport. The Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester corridor will still be a big traffic generator even after NPR removes through-passengers. Given the towns served we should be looking at metro frequency services: a semi-fast train every 15 minutes Manc-Staly-Hudd-Dews-Leeds, and an all stops service every 15 minutes. I don't think this would be overkill given what future rail patronage levels need to be at. To achieve this you will need the Huddersfield-Dewsbury scheme. The freed up capacity would also be useful for new services - e.g. Castleford/Wakefield-Huddersfield-Manchester.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

We've been arguing for quite some time that electrification isn't just a carbon issue, whilst that's where the money can come from thanks to government decarbonisation funding strategies, we certainly think it's likely that electrification will also, indirectly, reduce instances of respiratory disorder.

Also Chemistry World had a paper showing 5 times the risk being next to a diesel locomotive. I will sit next to the DVT thanks if not electrified

 

[Bald Rick]

Why it could be years before passenger numbers are back to pre covid levels and country doesn't have a bottomless pit of money, one or the other in my view.

Indeed. As a new line from Leeds to Manchester is going to cost at least 20 times what this project will cost, it would seem sensible to get on with the smaller scale project pending a later assessment of whether the growth in demand will return.

As for the air pollution argument for electrification I'm always skeptical of that argument because the amount of Rail Diesel pollution compared to Road Vehicle pollution must be small

Not on some corridors. By far the greatest improvement in air quality in London over the last few years has been on the A40 Westway corridor from Westbourne Park to Paddington.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Indeed. As a new line from Leeds to Manchester is going to cost at least 20 times what this project will cost, it would seem sensible to get on with the smaller scale project pending a later assessment of whether the growth in demand will return.

Now that sounds like a plan that most should be able to get behind.

 

[Bald Rick]

Now that sounds like a plan that most should be able to get behind.

Well it’s whats happening, so I hope so!

 

[anorack 1]

They haven't even decided what route for HS3. Its a pipedream along with Borise's bridge in London and the daft idea of a bridge to N.Ireland. With people being told not to use public transport. About the only thing that's increased during the pandemic is road traffic. I don't think public transport will come roaring back, not with many office workers working from home in the future. It would be better to scrap the idea of HS3 and concentrate on electrifying and modernising the two trans pennine routes we already have.

 

[Purple Orange]

What makes people think that NPR is not TPRU and associated electrification? The announcement today clearly shows a junction towards the existing line to Stalybridge, which already can accommodate 6 tph. Building this short link will enable NPR branded services to commence, even if it is on the existing infrastructure.

 

[Bald Rick]

What makes people think that NPR is not TPRU and associated electrification?

Because they are separate projects, with separate teams managing them, working to deliver different outcomes (but co-ordinated)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What makes people think that NPR is not TPRU and associated electrification? The announcement today clearly shows a junction towards the existing line to Stalybridge, which already can accommodate 6 tph. Building this short link will enable NPR branded services to commence, even if it is on the existing infrastructure.

That's at least 10 years away, probably more. There is no clarity about the route east of Manchester.
It also nullifies the Ordsall Chord scheme by going back to reversing trains at Piccadilly for Leeds.

 

[Purple Orange]

Because they are separate projects, with separate teams managing them, working to deliver different outcomes (but co-ordinated)

That’s not quite what I mean. The ambitions of the government is to build NPR, high speed north, or a new line between Leeds and Manchester. It’s a fairly loose ambition, which the government can change as it sees fit. Therefore what if the slice & dice approach to upgrade the existing route is deemed sufficient? I think it is highly likely.

That's at least 10 years away, probably more. There is no clarity about the route east of Manchester.
It also nullifies the Ordsall Chord scheme by going back to reversing trains at Piccadilly for Leeds.

The junction to Leeds is a few hundred metres from the existing line. It will clearly link to it.

 

[Bald Rick]

That’s not quite what I mean. The ambitions of the government is to build NPR, high speed north, or a new line between Leeds and Manchester. It’s a fairly loose ambition, which the government can change as it sees fit. Therefore what if the slice & dice approach to upgrade the existing route is deemed sufficient? I think it is highly likely.

Ah I see. I agree it is possible. Personal view - it’s going to be a choice between NPR or the eastern leg of
HS2. There’s barely enough money for one, let alone both. It will be interesting to see what Yorkshire wants the most - a fast link to the snooty southerners, or a fast link to the red rose county.