Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[Purple Orange]

Ah I see. I agree it is possible. Personal view - it’s going to be a choice between NPR or the eastern leg of
HS2. There’s barely enough money for one, let alone both. It will be interesting to see what Yorkshire wants the most - a fast link to the snooty southerners, or a fast link to the red rose county.

If it is a choice between NPR (all bells & whistle) across the Pennines or HS2 eastern branch, I think Yorkshire would pick HS2 eastern branch. The frequency between Leeds & Manchester is already there, and with full electrification across the Pennines and 4-tracking where possible, it is quite possible journey times could be circa 35 mins, what motivation is there to shave another 10 mins? This is assuming that the NPR line between Liverpool and Manchester will be built.

 

[The Ham]

Ah I see. I agree it is possible. Personal view - it’s going to be a choice between NPR or the eastern leg of
HS2. There’s barely enough money for one, let alone both. It will be interesting to see what Yorkshire wants the least - a fast link to the snooty southerners, or a fast link to the red rose county.

Fixed that for you...

 

[Bald Rick]

Fixed that for you...

I very nearly wrote that!

If it is a choice between NPR (all bells & whistle) across the Pennines or HS2 eastern branch, I think Yorkshire would pick HS2 eastern branch. The frequency between Leeds & Manchester is already there, and with full electrification across the Pennines and 4-tracking where possible, it is quite possible journey times could be circa 35 mins, what motivation is there to shave another 10 mins? This is assuming that the NPR line between Liverpool and Manchester will be built.

The NPR target for Manchester - Leeds is 30 mins. For the existing route, electrification throughout, and some linespeed improvements will get it to around 45mins.

 

[Mikey C]

Ah I see. I agree it is possible. Personal view - it’s going to be a choice between NPR or the eastern leg of
HS2. There’s barely enough money for one, let alone both. It will be interesting to see what Yorkshire wants the most - a fast link to the snooty southerners, or a fast link to the red rose county.

The Yorkshire folk would favour a high speed line that stays entirely in Yorkshire

 

[SuperNova]

I don't think its a lazy argument at all, essentially we could end up spending vast amounts of money upgrading this line to a gold standard only then to spend huge amounts of money again for NPR, while if we got a decision on NPR then yes we still spend some money on upgrading it but perhaps not to a gold standard.

If a decision on NPR isn't made for 10 years then I certainly doubt it will go ahead potentially having already spent a lot of money on existing route upgrade plus we will have a better idea of post covid traffic, and any delays and cost escalations to HS2.

It is a lazy argument though. HS3 is still a pipe dream with so many unanswered questions it's not worth thinking about right now, also fuelled by politics rather than practicality. There's no route nailed down, too many questions over Manchester, whether or not its cost effective etc. Reality is, it won't be built for 30 years - in the meantime what do you do? Upgrade the current route.

This upgrade needed to be done decades ago and we keep putting it off, just get it done. NR have put off upgrading track on the route which is why there are so many issues between Dewsbury and Leeds, especially when the weather is warm. Also, in times of recession, infrastructure projects are always a great way of boosting the economy - TRU is no different & along with improving journey times and capacity, it electrifies the railway (should the DfT allow it) which is part of the decarbonisation plan as well as improving freight capacity.

 

[Purple Orange]

It is a lazy argument though. HS3 is still a pipe dream with so many unanswered questions it's not worth thinking about right now, also fuelled by politics rather than practicality. There's no route nailed down, too many questions over Manchester, whether or not its cost effective etc. Reality is, it won't be built for 30 years - in the meantime what do you do? Upgrade the current route.

This upgrade needed to be done decades ago and we keep putting it off, just get it done. NR have put off upgrading track on the route which is why there are so many issues between Dewsbury and Leeds, especially when the weather is warm. Also, in times of recession, infrastructure projects are always a great way of boosting the economy - TRU is no different & along with improving journey times and capacity, it electrifies the railway (should the DfT allow it) which is part of the decarbonisation plan as well as improving freight capacity.

I think the announcement yesterday gives us an answer to the question about Manchester, being a 6-platform station with a junction to Leeds heading in the direction of Ardwick depot. Clearly that junction will be linked to the existing line which is only a few hundred metres from the junction itself.

A brand new line via Bradford with new tunnels is a pipe dream. But NPR services running through HS2 infrastructure, then on to an electrified and upgraded Trans Pennine North line via Huddersfield is not much of a pipe dream, but I think the most realistic outcome.

 

[Kieran1990]

When is construction/ upgrade work planned upgrade start on Huddersfield-Dewsbury-Leeds?
Assume some hefty blockades will be needed?

 

[59CosG95]

When is construction/ upgrade work planned upgrade start on Huddersfield-Dewsbury-Leeds?
Assume some hefty blockades will be needed?

IIRC Batley SB & Lady Anne Level Crossing (a UWC I believe) are due to go as part of the works.
At least one hefty blockade will be needed for this, and also track/OLE installation work in Morley Tunnel.

Edit: see here for a NR page on Lady Anne LC & Batley Signal Box https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...nnine-route-upgrade/lady-anne-level-crossing/

 

[YorksLad12]

IIRC Batley SB & Lady Anne Level Crossing (a UWC I believe) are due to go as part of the works.
At least one hefty blockade will be needed for this, and also track/OLE installation work in Morley Tunnel.

You'd (I'd) imagine the connections will be long possessions over Christmas and New Year periods, but it's basically building a new railway for long stretches, which can be done without closing the existing railway (subject to safe working conditions and the odd TSR). Building the new Ravensthorpe will be difficult, and Mirfield will need to be rebuilt before P3 comes out... assuming they keep the stopping services running throughout, that is. When we get past GRIP 4 it'll be interesting to see the project plan.

 

[Bald Rick]

When is construction/ upgrade work planned upgrade start on Huddersfield-Dewsbury-Leeds?
Assume some hefty blockades will be needed?

Not for a few years. It will take a couple of years to get consent.

 

[Meerkat]

Not for a few years. It will take a couple of years to get consent.

Why so long after two consultations already? Boris wants quicker planning, maybe he should start with railways rather than stuff for the big house builders......

Ah I see. I agree it is possible. Personal view - it’s going to be a choice between NPR or the eastern leg of
HS2. There’s barely enough money for one, let alone both. It will be interesting to see what Yorkshire wants the most - a fast link to the snooty southerners, or a fast link to the red rose county.

It would be a bit odd for the north to demand levelling up and a move out of London then prefer a better connection to London than the agglomeration benefits of better links inside the north

 

[YorksLad12]

Why so long after two consultations already? Boris wants quicker planning, maybe he should start with railways rather than stuff for the big house builders......

Because this is still GRIP stage 4 - "single option development". You wouldn't give planning consent on the basis of a few vague watercolour drawings on a display board, you need more detailed design work - that's GRIP stage 5. Then you can let the contracts, start construction, etc. Nothing I ever worked on had two consultations like this, it was just the one and plow on but this one is a biggie over several sites (well, a stretch of railway).

 

[Bald Rick]

Why so long after two consultations already? Boris wants quicker planning, maybe he should start with railways rather than stuff for the big house builders......

Consultations are needed before the formal consent process starts. This isn’t getting planning permission for a loft conversion (even that can take 6 months) - this has the potential to change peoples’ lives. Read up about the Trsnsport & Works Act process.

Transport and Works Act orders: a brief guide

Outlines the procedures involved in applying for a Transport and Works Act order.

www.gov.uk

 

[SuperNova]

I think the announcement yesterday gives us an answer to the question about Manchester, being a 6-platform station with a junction to Leeds heading in the direction of Ardwick depot. Clearly that junction will be linked to the existing line which is only a few hundred metres from the junction itself.

A brand new line via Bradford with new tunnels is a pipe dream. But NPR services running through HS2 infrastructure, then on to an electrified and upgraded Trans Pennine North line via Huddersfield is not much of a pipe dream, but I think the most realistic outcome.

That's a fair point, especially if money is an issue. I still think there'd need to be a new tunnel under the pennines as standedge doesn't particularly provide speed. But a connecting link high speed link from Liverpool to HS2 to serve Manchester onto an improved line through to Leeds and then a new high speed line connecting with Church Fenton would provide the journey time reductions that people are looking for.

It won't please TfN and some politicians but the cost of going through Bradford really doesn't justify the project in all honesty.

 

[Bald Rick]

Nothing I ever worked on had two consultations like this, it was just the one and plow on but this one is a biggie over several sites (well, a stretch of railway).

It’s good practice to do at least two consultations prior to application, plus the statutory consultation in the formal process itself.

Consultation 1: “Hello, this is what we’re thinking about in outline, any comments ideas?”
Consultation 2: “This is what you told us. We’ve made a few changes as a result. Any comments on this before we fix it?”
Statutory Consultstion “this is the final proposal. You’ve had two opportunities to make comments. We’ve responded. Anything unresolved is going to be determined by the planning inspector. By the way, if you come up with something new at this stage, you’ll need a very good reason as to why you haven’t raised it before”

Typically the first two cycles take 6-9 months each. (2-3 months prep, 2-3 months consultstion period, 2-3 months assimilating feedback and making necessary changes).

 

[Purple Orange]

That's a fair point, especially if money is an issue. I still think there'd need to be a new tunnel under the pennines as standedge doesn't particularly provide speed. But a connecting link high speed link from Liverpool to HS2 to serve Manchester onto an improved line through to Leeds and then a new high speed line connecting with Church Fenton would provide the journey time reductions that people are looking for.

It won't please TfN and some politicians but the cost of going through Bradford really doesn't justify the project in all honesty.

Long term, a new line of some shape or form should certainly be constructed, whether that be a new tunnel under the Pennines or a new line feeding into the existing tunnels, but in the meantime perhaps an approach similar to Eurostar in the early years might help. Build infrastructure to assist with establishing the service, but deal with the more difficult issues (HS1 in to St. Pancras, rather than existing lines in to Waterloo).

 

[YorksLad12]

It’s good practice to do at least two consultations prior to application, plus the statutory consultation in the formal process itself.

Consultation 1: “Hello, this is what we’re thinking about in outline, any comments ideas?”
Consultation 2: “This is what you told us. We’ve made a few changes as a result. Any comments on this before we fix it?”
Statutory Consultstion “this is the final proposal. You’ve had two opportunities to make comments. We’ve responded. Anything unresolved is going to be determined by the planning inspector. By the way, if you come up with something new at this stage, you’ll need a very good reason as to why you haven’t raised it before”

Typically the first two cycles take 6-9 months each. (2-3 months prep, 2-3 months consultstion period, 2-3 months assimilating feedback and making necessary changes).

True. In my cases, (1) and (2) took place with (funding/political) stakeholders during the stages before GRIP4, which is the point I would normally be brought in so I don't count those as consultations in the same way. After the statutory 13 week-plus consultation any changes should be minor and within the agree project scope, if you've been listening to what people have been saying.

 

[Killingworth]

It’s good practice to do at least two consultations prior to application, plus the statutory consultation in the formal process itself.

Consultation 1: “Hello, this is what we’re thinking about in outline, any comments ideas?”
Consultation 2: “This is what you told us. We’ve made a few changes as a result. Any comments on this before we fix it?”
Statutory Consultstion “this is the final proposal. You’ve had two opportunities to make comments. We’ve responded. Anything unresolved is going to be determined by the planning inspector. By the way, if you come up with something new at this stage, you’ll need a very good reason as to why you haven’t raised it before”

Typically the first two cycles take 6-9 months each. (2-3 months prep, 2-3 months consultstion period, 2-3 months assimilating feedback and making necessary changes).

That sounds about right. We had 3 public consultations plus a public inquiry for the very much smaller Hope Valley Capacity Scheme.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

A second entrance to Huddersfield Station would improve things no end.
From the car park off Fitzwilliam Street into the new platform 6.
Make it the taxi rank entrance and clear St George's Square.
Doesn't shave a single second off train times though.

 

[IanXC]

The NPR target for Manchester - Leeds is 30 mins. For the existing route, electrification throughout, and some linespeed improvements will get it to around 45mins.

I thought the TRU target was 62 minutes York to Manchester with 2 stops, and 40 minutes Leeds to Manchester with 1 stop?

Has the target proved unachievable and/or been revised?

 

[Purple Orange]

I thought the TRU target was 62 minutes York to Manchester with 2 stops, and 40 minutes Leeds to Manchester with 1 stop?

Has the target proved unachievable and/or been revised?

If 45 mins is achieved across the Pennines through the current TRU work (which only focuses on Huddersfield to Leeds) surely 40 mins can be achieved through continued electrification and line speed improvements between Piccadilly and Huddersfield?

If 40 mins was achieved and full electrification, I think the government would cease further investment on the trans pennine line and then focus elsewhere.

 

[Bald Rick]

I thought the TRU target was 62 minutes York to Manchester with 2 stops, and 40 minutes Leeds to Manchester with 1 stop?

Has the target proved unachievable and/or been revised?

That might have been the case, but I haven’t seen anything on that recently. But I expect you are right that it was the target.

Looking at timings in a bit more detail now, I’d say that with electrification throughout, the linespeed improvements / 4 tracking planned east of Huddersfield, and some tweaks to linespeed on the west side, 40 mins is definitely possible with one stop.

 

[superkev]

That might have been the case, but I haven’t seen anything on that recently. But I expect you are right that it was the target.

Looking at timings in a bit more detail now, I’d say that with electrification throughout, the linespeed improvements / 4 tracking planned east of Huddersfield, and some tweaks to linespeed on the west side, 40 mins is definitely possible with one stop.

I dont think 40min is not much faster than the present. For interest is Stalybridge to Vic potentially faster than Stalybridge to Picc.
K

 

[Bald Rick]

I dont think 40min is not much faster than the present. For interest is Stalybridge to Vic potentially faster than Stalybridge to Picc.
K

The base time for an 802 with 2 stops is about 51 mins, with all pathing time removed. That comes down to 47 with 1 stop, I think.

Electric power will give a few minutes, the linespeed improvement from Ravensthorpe to Huddersfield another minute or two.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The base time for an 802 with 2 stops is about 51 mins, with all pathing time removed. That comes down to 47 with 1 stop, I think.

Electric power will give a few minutes, the linespeed improvement from Ravensthorpe to Huddersfield another minute or two.

I think you mentioned it earlier, but it's not just acceleration but also braking which electrification really helps - regen braking can cope with a steeper deceleration profile too, so you can stay at line speed for a little longer.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I think you mentioned it earlier, but it's not just acceleration but also braking which electrification really helps - regen braking can cope with a steeper deceleration profile too, so you can stay at line speed for a little longer.

Good reminder thanks. Not just about acceleration but negative acceleration aka deceleration too.

 

[edwin_m]

I think you mentioned it earlier, but it's not just acceleration but also braking which electrification really helps - regen braking can cope with a steeper deceleration profile too, so you can stay at line speed for a little longer.

But would defensive driving policies allow a more severe deceleration for station stops and speed restrictions?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Good reminder thanks. Not just about acceleration but negative acceleration aka deceleration too.

It can all be in vain if the TOC has swallowed the defensive driving handbook and are prepared to stop for every Tesco bag that blows onto the track...

 

[YorksLad12]

I dont think 40min is not much faster than the present. For interest is Stalybridge to Vic potentially faster than Stalybridge to Picc.
K

The base time for an 802 with 2 stops is about 51 mins, with all pathing time removed. That comes down to 47 with 1 stop, I think.

Electric power will give a few minutes, the linespeed improvement from Ravensthorpe to Huddersfield another minute or two.

IIRC, before the last big change there was an hourly Leeds-Hudderfield-Piccadilly service that took 49 minutes. Most took nearer 55, whether to Pic or Vic, and it's about 65 now to Pic via Vic from Leeds. A huge time reduction to 30 minutes would be impossible for TRU but I'd settle for a straight 45 minutes to either Pic or Vic with one stop, or 50 minutes with a couple (or a few minutes less).

 

[Brissle Girl]

It can all be in vain if the TOC has swallowed the defensive driving handbook and are prepared to stop for every Tesco bag that blows onto the track...

I seem to recall that the 185s (or is it XC units?) normally run with one engine out as an economy measure, or, as it was described "because the timetable can still be achieved with it out, so look how green we are being". But surely, you could have a sharper timetable if you ran to full power? I cite that as an example of where the railway seems to adopt a very conservative attitude these days, and has seemed to forget the mantra that every minute saved improves the attractiveness of the service and thus revenue (and more modal shift, which presumably gains more energy saving than any due to driving economies).

As a bit of a digression, a relative (no interest in trains) who has recently moved from a Central Line commute to using the new Elizabeth line stock out of Paddington commented how the acceleration is really impressive, but the braking into stations is painfully slow compared with what he was used to, with the train crawling into the platforms. And how disappointing that felt for brand new trains. I gather in contrast the new Class 701s will have the facility to stop automatically to give a consistent (and hopefully fast) approach into the station. Whilst I'm not suggesting that would be appropriate for TPE services, it feels more of a positive step than simply accepting the status quo, and then layering on more degrees of caution as the years go by.