Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[deltic08]

Only an oddity in the sense of being, as you say yourself, a city with a very rural feel. The centre of Ripon is more that of a market town than a bustling metropolis, but it's none the worse for it. My use of the word oddity was facetious but not malicious.

I know. Just making fun out of it.

When I was Mayor in 2016/17, I persuaded the City Council to pay for a feasibility study into reinstating the Northallerton-Ripon-Harrogate line. I appointed two professionals to draw up a tender document and sent to six big consultancies. I was about to appoint the winner to do the study with Councils permission and they wouldn't give it. What is worse they voted to withdraw the funding. Trouble is 97% of respondents in a survey said they wanted it.

That's Councils for you. Ignore the wishes of the electorate.

 

[deltic08]

If you are referring to Ripon, surely it has now only 1/3 of a cathedral! A nice one though, and one that deserves a railway to arrive at it in style.

Do you mean it is a small cathedral or no longer has its own diocese but shares Bradfords and Wakefields? It is big once you get inside. Probably small as it is the oldest in England and maybe UK.

We are a bit off topic. I will probably be punished again. Already have 6 points against my name.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Back on topic, Yorkshire Post article:

'TransPennine passengers in Yorkshire may have to change trains on 'stopping service' as operator bids to improve reliability' 29/11/18
Read more at: https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/new...2FMWYgdvXqtluu6VlbhzmCT8_f2J_NFvf4nU6rCpx2ANM

No-doubt some of you will already know this, but I thought it is interesting considering that we NOW know that Leeds - Huddersfield is to be electrified.

Future all electric services to Huddersfield perhaps?

 

[yorksrob]

Do you mean it is a small cathedral or no longer has its own diocese but shares Bradfords and Wakefields? It is big once you get inside. Probably small as it is the oldest in England and maybe UK.

We are a bit off topic. I will probably be punished again. Already have 6 points against my name.

I used to live in Headingley in Leeds and the sign outside of the local church indicated that it was in the Diocese of Ripon.

 

[Senex]

Back on topic, Yorkshire Post article:

'TransPennine passengers in Yorkshire may have to change trains on 'stopping service' as operator bids to improve reliability' 29/11/18
Read more at: https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/new...2FMWYgdvXqtluu6VlbhzmCT8_f2J_NFvf4nU6rCpx2ANM

No-doubt some of you will already know this, but I thought it is interesting considering that we NOW know that Leeds - Huddersfield is to be electrified.

Future all electric services to Huddersfield perhaps?

Does the newspaper report say there will be electrification from Leeds to Huddersfield? (You can't get at the newspaper site without registering — and is there even a pay-wall after that?) If that does happen, is it possible that we shall end-up with an all-electric route from Liverpool via Leeds and York to Edinburgh EXCEPT for Manchester to Huddersfield (or perhaps even just Stalybridge to Huddersfield)? It would be rather daft to end up with bimodes just for those few miles.

 

[Meole]

Standedge tunnel presents a seriously expensive issue.

 

[Meerkat]

Apologies for not bothering to look at a map for myself but is there any chance you could bore a new tunnel, divert TPE through it, electrify the old one at leisure, then the new tunnel is in the right place for full high speed NPR later on?

 

[themiller]

Standedge tunnel presents a seriously expensive issue.

It’d likely be cheaper that tunnelling under London for Crossrail 1 or 2! I seem to remember that some of the tunnels on the Loetchberg route in Switzerland were increased in size by constructing a new lining outside the existing one thus vastly reducing the disruption to the operating railway then dismantling the inner, old lining. I don’t know if that’d work in this case but it’s worth exploring.

 

[Meerkat]

What is the issue with Standedge? Just that you would have to blockade it for a long time, or there isn’t room for a Severn Tunnel style solution?

 

[furnessvale]

Standedge tunnel presents a seriously expensive issue.

Has it been gauged and found to be a problem?

The elliptical shape of most long tunnels seems to provide enough room for wires and that is before we consider the rigid bar solution.

 

[AndrewE]

Standedge tunnel presents a seriously expensive issue.

You really have to justify that assertion, as no-one on here (including lots of railway professionals) knows of any reason why it might be more difficult than any other tunnel (discussed extensively upthread and in other threads.) In fact it will be a lot easier as there are perfectly good unused bores that can be relaid and electrified without the complication of a train service getting in the way. The extra capacity is needed anyway so after they are done the other two lines in the currently-used tunnel can be electrified.
Have you just absorbed politicians' propaganda, or do you actually have a proper source for your belief?
I know... it's panto season. You just want us to shout "Oh no it doesn't!"

 

[dewsnapsliding]

In addition to which you can access the twin bore tunnel and store equipment from one of the single bore tunnels without needing to bring it in from either end.

Agree with some on here that some seemed to have swallowed Grayling/other's BS without anyone being able to say what makes it so difficult (read expensive).

 

[themiller]

Another solution would be to re-commission Fillie to open up the 1871 single tunnel to a suitable size to take ohle before fitting out the existing tunnel with wires at a central position and then singling it. The time taken to do this could take no more than erecting wires on the rest of the route especially if Fillie could have a sister to work from the other end.

 

[Meole]

Leeds to Huddersfield electrification is on and there is a significant demand here, there is now no intention to electrify east of Stalybridge, for through services Nova bimode trains on order plus Class 68 hauled services, use of the 2 old bores was considered until 2012 then rejected, cheapest solution is being pursued, obviously through electrification would be sensible but so would doubling the M 62 which is equally outdated.

 

[Ken H]

Not towns... but probably not villages either seeing as there isn't really much greenery between them and the next place. Liversedge is essentially an area or district of Heckmondwike.

But then it's only us Brits who seem to get hung up on labels for places, with our royal charters and city statuses. In the U.S., even little one-horse settlements might well be known as cities. Here other than the oddities of the likes of Ripon and Wells, the titles generally imply size or at least relative size within a surrounding area.

You forgot St Davids!

 

[AndrewE]

Leeds to Huddersfield electrification is on and there is a significant demand here, there is now no intention to electrify east of Stalybridge, for through services Nova bimode trains on order plus Class 68 hauled services, use of the 2 old bores was considered until 2012 then rejected, cheapest solution is being pursued, obviously through electrification would be sensible but so would doubling the M 62 which is equally outdated.

You don't think that there is significant demand between Manchester and Leeds then? Of course it's cheaper not to electrify, but that isn't a valid answer. Messing about with bi-modes (maintaining and dragging the diesel power packs round for ever) is a classic short-term fix ignoring longer term benefits. What a bunch of tossers we have making the decisions.

 

[Chris 76]

I'm also wondering about the issue with Standedge Tunnel. Others have mentioned the closed parallel bores which could be reopened before closing the main tunnel for electrification. If that solution is dismissed as too expensive how long a blockade would be needed for Standedge to be electrified in one go? That would be disruptive but probably better than piecemeal closures. Huddersfield could still have trains to Manchester via the Calder Valley. Local trains could still run from Greenfield to Manchester and from Marsden to Huddersfield, depending on upgrade work elsewhere on the Standedge route. The hysteria about the difficulty of the transpennine upgrade being whipped up by politicians from Grayling downwards, and unchallenged by the rail industry, is pathetic, and contrary to the narrative that plucky enterprising Britain can do things.

 

[Ken H]

I used to live in Headingley in Leeds and the sign outside of the local church indicated that it was in the Diocese of Ripon.

Ripon Diocese became Ripon and Leeds in 1999
Ripon and Leeds, Wakefield and Bradford were replaced by the diocese of Leeds 2013.

 

[AndrewE]

Time to remind people of this specific thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...edge-tunnel-be-difficult.167045/#post-3545839

 

[Ken H]

I'm also wondering about the issue with Standedge Tunnel. Others have mentioned the closed parallel bores which could be reopened before closing the main tunnel for electrification. If that solution is dismissed as too expensive how long a blockade would be needed for Standedge to be electrified in one go? That would be disruptive but probably better than piecemeal closures. Huddersfield could still have trains to Manchester via the Calder Valley. Local trains could still run from Greenfield to Manchester and from Marsden to Huddersfield, depending on upgrade work elsewhere on the Standedge route. The hysteria about the difficulty of the transpennine upgrade being whipped up by politicians from Grayling downwards, and unchallenged by the rail industry, is pathetic, and contrary to the narrative that plucky enterprising Britain can do things.

really needs a new base tunnel from Stalybridge to Huddersfield. double track, 125mph. not much gradient.

 

[yorksrob]

Ripon Diocese became Ripon and Leeds in 1999
Ripon and Leeds, Wakefield and Bradford were replaced by the diocese of Leeds 2013.

This was in 99/01, so it's possible the sign hadn't been updated by then.

I'd assumed that the Church's boundaries dated back thousands of years, rather than being subject to modern management reorganisations !

 

[Boysteve]

As others have said, I too have not seen any reason why Standedge would be so difficult (compared to other long Victorian era tunnels). Sure the logistics of getting equipment to the installation site can be tedious meaning that a full blockage for several weeks is much more preferable than overnights or just weekends.
I believe a more difficult thing to overcome is the location of main access to residential properties at OHLE height close to Mossley. Any large wall or 'tunnel' has to take into account residents needs and rights to maintain their properties by use of long ladders etc. On solution could be to lower the track by two metres through the affected area and cover. To do this you would then need 200 metres of lowered level track at the Stalybridge end (in place of the 1:100 gradient), and then 400 metres of lowered track at (1:75) to the East to regain the original track height. Yes you could also have just 200 metres but it would be at 1:50 instead. Mossley station would have to be rebuilt at a lower too! This would take much much longer than any blockade of Standage, although it would make sense to do the works at the same time!

 

[Ken H]

This was in 99/01, so it's possible the sign hadn't been updated by then.

I'd assumed that the Church's boundaries dated back thousands of years, rather than being subject to modern management reorganisations !

Wakefield Diocese - 18 May 1888–20 April 2014
Bradford Diocese - 25 November 1919–20 April 2014
Both cathedrals were parish churches.

Even Ripon diocese was created 1836!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Agree Standedge shouldn't be any harder than any other tunnels, other than the length- but it's shorter than the Severn Tunnel and not much longer than Morley tunnel. The houses backed onto the line at Mossley seem like more of a problem than the tunnels: being so close to the station, I'm not sure making it a neutral section would work.

 

[urbophile]

This was in 99/01, so it's possible the sign hadn't been updated by then.

I'd assumed that the Church's boundaries dated back thousands of years, rather than being subject to modern management reorganisations !

You obviously don't know the Church of England! Railway management might be dysfunctional but it's a good job the C of E isn't running the railways.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Leeds to Huddersfield electrification is on and there is a significant demand here, there is now no intention to electrify east of Stalybridge.........

Is this confirmed? Has there been an announcement I have missed?

 

[yorksrob]

You obviously don't know the Church of England! Railway management might be dysfunctional but it's a good job the C of E isn't running the railways.

At least they have the Archbishop of Canterbury (which I assume is the ecclesiastical equivalent to the Chairman of BR).

 

[WatcherZero]

Actually the Queen is the equivalent of the Chairman and the Archbishops Managing Directors.

 

[AndrewE]

As others have said, I too have not seen any reason why Standedge would be so difficult (compared to other long Victorian era tunnels). Sure the logistics of getting equipment to the installation site can be tedious meaning that a full blockage for several weeks is much more preferable than overnights or just weekends.
I believe a more difficult thing to overcome is the location of main access to residential properties at OHLE height close to Mossley. Any large wall or 'tunnel' has to take into account residents needs and rights to maintain their properties by use of long ladders etc. On solution could be to lower the track by two metres through the affected area and cover. To do this you would then need 200 metres of lowered level track at the Stalybridge end (in place of the 1:100 gradient), and then 400 metres of lowered track at (1:75) to the East to regain the original track height. Yes you could also have just 200 metres but it would be at 1:50 instead. Mossley station would have to be rebuilt at a lower too! This would take much much longer than any blockade of Standage, although it would make sense to do the works at the same time!

That's a nice solution, much better than maintaining a tall impenetrable fence in perpetuity. I wonder how quickly it could be dug out and the rails reinststed?

 

[yorksrob]

Actually the Queen is the equivalent of the Chairman and the Archbishops Managing Directors.

Ah, that makes sense !