Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[reddragon]

If you want to find lost drainage or cables, electrify. The piles are unbelievably good at finding em.

Whilst numerically GWEP won, GOBLIN trashed it in numbers per km hit / severed!

 

[snowball]

So, would I be correct in assuming that the grade-seperated junctions at Thornhill and Heaton Lodge will only connect the Calder Valley line to the slow lines? If so, how would engineering work or obstruction diversions from the upgraded TP route be organised?

At Heaton Lodge I believe the existing bridge will be reconstructed in situ on the existing lines, which will become the slow lines, with the new fast lines bypassing the junction to the south. I imagine this will require a blockade. Conceivably if the fast lines have been built by then, Hudds-Leeds trains would still be able to run, but there has been talk on here of several blockades. Once it's all built, works could be done on the fast lines with trains diverted to the slows for the full length of the 4-track section.

At Thornhill the new flyover will carry the new fast lines over everything else (except the Dewsbury-bound slow line), and will enable the fast lines to move from the south side to the middle, between the slows, before the 4 tracks reduce to 2.

 

[D6130]

At Heaton Lodge I believe the existing bridge will be reconstructed in situ on the existing lines, which will become the slow lines, with the new fast lines bypassing the junction to the south. I imagine this will require a blockade. Conceivably if the fast lines have been built by then, Hudds-Leeds trains would still be able to run, but there has been talk on here of several blockades. Once it's all built, works could be done on the fast lines with trains diverted to the slows for the full length of the 4-track section.

At Thornhill the new flyover will carry the new fast lines over everything else (except the Dewsbury-bound slow line), and will enable the fast lines to move from the south side to the middle, between the slows, before the 4 tracks reduce to 2.

Thanks. That makes sense!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I counted 57 OHLE piles on the Up today, between Victoria and Ashton, and 70 on the Down.
Nothing east of Ashton, and just 4 east of the M60 Bridge.

East of Church Fenton, there is an earth wire linking 26 masts on the west side, roughly where the fast/slow crossover is, and a couple on the east side.
The whole 5 miles looks ready for SPS, with just a few cantilever sections missing near Colton.

With Piccadilly-Marsden now being the NPR target, bypassing Stalybridge, is there any point in TRU re-re-modelling the layout at Stalybridge to favour Victoria?

 

[snowball]

I counted 57 OHLE piles on the Up today, between Victoria and Ashton, and 70 on the Down.

If the 543 are indeed 40% complete, there must be another 90 or so somewhere.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If the 543 are indeed 40% complete, there must be another 90 or so somewhere.

I don't doubt I missed some, maybe on top of cutting walls and un-visible fixings on bridges/viaducts.

 

[Ploughman]

Whilst numerically GWEP won, GOBLIN trashed it in numbers per km hit / severed!

Is there a league table of severity of hit ?

I recall that Leeds NW had a Biggie at Shipley when a pile hit the Oil Jacketed power supply to Bradford back in about 1993.

 

[reddragon]

Is there a league table of severity of hit ?

I recall that Leeds NW had a Biggie at Shipley when a pile hit the Oil Jacketed power supply to Bradford back in about 1993.

Its Twyford to Newbury versus the Walthamstow carnage!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

At Heaton Lodge I believe the existing bridge will be reconstructed in situ on the existing lines, which will become the slow lines, with the new fast lines bypassing the junction to the south. I imagine this will require a blockade. Conceivably if the fast lines have been built by then, Hudds-Leeds trains would still be able to run, but there has been talk on here of several blockades. Once it's all built, works could be done on the fast lines with trains diverted to the slows for the full length of the 4-track section.

At Thornhill the new flyover will carry the new fast lines over everything else (except the Dewsbury-bound slow line), and will enable the fast lines to move from the south side to the middle, between the slows, before the 4 tracks reduce to 2.

Rather than what happens if the fasts are closed, it's notable that when the slows are closed the stoppers will not be able to serve Ravensthorpe, Mirfield or Deighton. That's not enough of a problem to justify providing platforms on the fasts for occasional use, though I could see Mirfield being worthy of peak stops on the fast services if it were possible.

 

[matacaster]

I counted 57 OHLE piles on the Up today, between Victoria and Ashton, and 70 on the Down.
Nothing east of Ashton, and just 4 east of the M60 Bridge.

East of Church Fenton, there is an earth wire linking 26 masts on the west side, roughly where the fast/slow crossover is, and a couple on the east side.
The whole 5 miles looks ready for SPS, with just a few cantilever sections missing near Colton.

With Piccadilly-Marsden now being the NPR target, bypassing Stalybridge, is there any point in TRU re-re-modelling the layout at Stalybridge to favour Victoria?

Its Twyford to Newbury versus the Walthamstow carnage!

Did they not use electricity detectors?
...or used them after they'd piled

 

[reddragon]

Did they not use electricity detectors?
...or used them after they'd piled

Not only were the buried pipes / cables marked correctly on their plans, visible in places on the surface and paint marked on the ground, they knew they'd hit them and carried on piling with liquid / sparks etc all over the place for up to half an hour!

Denials ranged from the sublime to the ridiculous, they ignored requests to stop and repeat offended. Network Rail were not happy bunnies, especially as NR assets suffered more than most!

 

[ABB125]

Not only were the buried pipes / cables marked correctly on their plans, visible in places on the surface and paint marked on the ground, they knew they'd hit them and carried on piling with liquid / sparks etc all over the place for up to half an hour!

I hope the contractors responsible paid for the repairs to be made. Though I wouldn't be surprised it they didn't...

 

[reddragon]

I hope the contractors responsible paid for the repairs to be made. Though I wouldn't be surprised it they didn't...

The GWEP 3rd party ones yes, NR ones not sure if they all got done.

Goblin - No and many still not fixed flooding the railway each time it rains since 2016! NR are out of pocket on this one due to the scale of damage & unresolved issues.

 

[ABB125]

The GWEP 3rd party ones yes, NR ones not sure if they all got done.

Goblin - No and many still not fixed flooding the railway each time it rains since 2016! NR are out of pocket on this one due to the scale of damage & unresolved issues.

I would like to be shocked by that answer... but I'm not!

 

[Bald Rick]

With Piccadilly-Marsden now being the NPR target, bypassing Stalybridge, is there any point in TRU re-re-modelling the layout at Stalybridge to favour Victoria?

Yes - as it is conceivable that with the new line taking the traffic to Piccadilly, traffic on the old line may be directed to Victoria.

Or, at the very least, the traffic going to Victoria is sped up for the decade or so between completion and the tunnel being finished.

I hope the contractors responsible paid for the repairs to be made. Though I wouldn't be surprised it they didn't...

It’s a rare major works contract that includes consequential damages such as this.

 

[ABB125]

It’s a rare major works contract that includes consequential damages such as this.

Why not? Is it covered by the seemingly infinite number of sub-contracts, or is it just a case of "pass it on to Network Rail, no-one cares of they have to pay"?

 

[reddragon]

They managed to sever several pipes, pile through many, lower tracks around a pipe putting it above ground a few millimetres below rail (it burst), hit one pipe 4 times in one place, pile into a manhole, hit oil filled cables, endless track drainage including new stuff at Reading Station and my favourite hitting a 10m deep tunnel bang centre!

Just 2 contracts did this, the other contracts were fine.

 

[YorksLad12]

Rather than what happens if the fasts are closed, it's notable that when the slows are closed the stoppers will not be able to serve Ravensthorpe, Mirfield or Deighton. That's not enough of a problem to justify providing platforms on the fasts for occasional use, though I could see Mirfield being worthy of peak stops on the fast services if it were possible.

I almosthate to say but in those cases... rail replacement buses. It might not be right but you know it'll happen (which is why I mentioned potential problems on the fast lines, they'll always get the priority). Which is I wondered about two sets of crossings, either side of Mirfield.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why not? Is it covered by the seemingly infinite number of sub-contracts, or is it just a case of "pass it on to Network Rail, no-one cares of they have to pay"?

Because then they have to seek insurance for all sorts of such events (where do you draw the line between severing a single cable to a telephone, and severing the main power supply to Birmingham New Street?), and that gets included in the tender, so NR end up paying anyway. And would usually end up paying more.

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that the topic of this thread is Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates, CP6.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else then they are welcome to start a new thread in the appropriate forum section

 

[CAF397]

East of Church Fenton, there is an earth wire linking 26 masts on the west side, roughly where the fast/slow crossover is, and a couple on the east side.
The whole 5 miles looks ready for SPS, with just a few cantilever sections missing near Colton.

There seems to be 3 or 4 missing TTCs on the Normanton lines just north of Ulleskelf.

New masts interlace with old where the existing electrification is approaching Colton Jn too.

 

[twin turbo]

I understand at Church Fenton they are looking to add two additional lines and the the two options on the table are.
A: Use the planned HS2 route and join where the current works have stopped just north of Church Fenton and put in a new section of track.
B: Add two new lines going past Rose Lane where they are closing the crossing and putting in a new highway to access the houses.

 

[Roast Veg]

I understand at Church Fenton they are looking to add two additional lines and the the two options on the table are.
A: Use the planned HS2 route and join where the current works have stopped just north of Church Fenton and put in a new section of track.
B: Add two new lines going past Rose Lane where they are closing the crossing and putting in a new highway to access the houses.

Four tracking Micklefield to Church Fenton wouldn't give you the capacity to avoid the stoppers like the HS2 alignment would.

 

[59CosG95]

Four tracking Micklefield to Church Fenton wouldn't give you the capacity to avoid the stoppers like the HS2 alignment would.

Indeed not!

 

[Roast Veg]

I suppose a non-high speed line could be built on the secured alignment, if responsibility for it were passed to Network Rail, but that likely depends on what benefit a short stretch of HSL brings.

 

[CrickUK]

I understand at Church Fenton they are looking to add two additional lines and the the two options on the table are.
A: Use the planned HS2 route and join where the current works have stopped just north of Church Fenton and put in a new section of track.
B: Add two new lines going past Rose Lane where they are closing the crossing and putting in a new highway to access the houses.

The ideal solution would be to 4 track Marsh Lane to Thorpe Park and for the fasts to then take the HS2 route to Ulleskelf thereby overcoming the issue of stoppers standing on the fast lines at stations.

 

[ABB125]

I suppose a non-high speed line could be built on the secured alignment, if responsibility for it were passed to Network Rail, but that likely depends on what benefit a short stretch of HSL brings.

Though if you're building a new line on an alignment designed for high speed, you might as well build it to the design speed, so that you don't have to rebuild it in the future if/when a complete high speed line is built. There's no harm in running 100mph trains on a 250mph line, if they're the only trains using it.

 

[Roast Veg]

Though if you're building a new line on an alignment designed for high speed, you might as well build it to the design speed, so that you don't have to rebuild it in the future if/when a complete high speed line is built. There's no harm in running 100mph trains on a 250mph line, if they're the only trains using it.

I don't disagree, but we're talking about 8 miles here. Somebody will come along and tell us the time that saves.

The ideal solution would be to 4 track Marsh Lane to Thorpe Park and for the fasts to then take the HS2 route to Ulleskelf thereby overcoming the issue of stoppers standing on the fast lines at stations.

You might get away with just four tracking from Cross Gates onwards, as long as you keep slower DMUs off of the Hull trains.

 

[plugwash]

I don't disagree, but we're talking about 8 miles here. Somebody will come along and tell us the time that saves.

Not much.

8 miles at 100 MPH, is 4.8 minutes, at 250MPH it's 1.92 minuites, so even with trains that could accelerate instantly you would be saving less than 3 minuites.

If we assume an acceleratoin/decelleration rate 1 meter per second per second (I don't know what the acceleration profile of the HS2 stock is planned to be but I suspect at the top end of the speed range it will be less than this) it will take over a minuite for a train to reach that speed. So ballparking you would have

1 minuite of accelerating operation with an average speed of around 175MPH covering about 3 miles.
2 miles at full speed taking about half a minuite.
1 minuite of decelerating operation with an average speed of around 175MPH covering about 3 miles.

So now your saving is down to about 2.3 minuites.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Received an email that 2 stalwart members of this forum who posted regular photos and updates on the Manchester-Blackpool scheme are on a reccie today and will hopefully be posting regular updates on progress between Man Vic and Stalybridge.