Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[YorkshireBear]

I know someone working on the project.

So do I, doesn't mean anything in this game unfortunately.

 

[YorksLad12]

So do I, doesn't mean anything in this game unfortunately.

Indeed. I know people involved with White Rose Station...

 

[fishwomp]

Indeed. I know people involved with White Rose Station...

.. haven't seen any updates on that in a while - is it restarting this financial year?

 

[YorkshireBear]

I noticed today that registration arms have started to appear on the Leeds bounds line between Church Fenton and Micklefield.

They are also cracking on with bridges works in various spots between Church Fenton and Leeds and piles have appeared in the ground Leeds side or Cross Gates.

 

[YorksLad12]

.. haven't seen any updates on that in a while - is it restarting this financial year?

I saw something public a while back, about “misunderstandings”. At the speed electrification is running, the station might be wired before it opens!

 

[superkev]

Re Mirfield BH weekend works.
I see on real time trains that trains are now stopping at the new south platform shown as Platform 1.
Track through the previous Platform 1 has been removed pending refurbishment.
K

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Re Mirfield BH weekend works.
I see on real time trains that trains are now stopping at the new south platform shown as Platform 1.
Track through the previous Platform 1 has been removed pending refurbishment.
K

At risk of causing the topic to go off on a tangent, does anyone know the thinking behind how this transitional period is handled in terms of platform numbers?

It's often said that renumbering platforms isn't as simple as changing the signage, as signalling also needs to be changed along with crews needing to learn that what was platform 1 is now 2 (or whatever the change is in a given location). But the situation at Mirfield is complicated by the works being phased, and the current (as of this week) down platform is roughly in the same location as the (very) old up platform, but this is only an interim arrangement.
From my layperson's position it seems slightly odd that this new platform is numbered as 1 rather than 2, as it is on what was the "2" side of the island. As the location of the platform has moved, I'd have thought the number also being changed would act as an additional reminder for crews about the new arrangement and minimise the risk of a wrong-side release?
Speaking of which, with a change like this how is route knowledge handled? Clearly the railway hasn't had to retrain every driver and guard "on the ground" so to speak as that would take weeks and be extremely disruptive- so are the changes just outlined in a briefing issued to crews when they clocked on this morning?

Back to the numbering, it has just occurred to me that the long term plan may well be to switch the numbers on the island permanently. Historically most stations on the route are numbered from the down side (down = lower numbers) with Huddersfield being the anomaly.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Speaking of which, with a change like this how is route knowledge handled? Clearly the railway hasn't had to retrain every driver and guard "on the ground" so to speak as that would take weeks and be extremely disruptive- so are the changes just outlined in a briefing issued to crews when they clocked on this morning?

There has been a notice up in the case for about 2w now letting us know of the impending change.

 

[YorksLad12]

At risk of causing the topic to go off on a tangent, does anyone know the thinking behind how this transitional period is handled in terms of platform numbers?

It's often said that renumbering platforms isn't as simple as changing the signage, as signalling also needs to be changed along with crews needing to learn that what was platform 1 is now 2 (or whatever the change is in a given location). But the situation at Mirfield is complicated by the works being phased, and the current (as of this week) down platform is roughly in the same location as the (very) old up platform, but this is only an interim arrangement.
From my layperson's position it seems slightly odd that this new platform is numbered as 1 rather than 2, as it is on what was the "2" side of the island. As the location of the platform has moved, I'd have thought the number also being changed would act as an additional reminder for crews about the new arrangement and minimise the risk of a wrong-side release?
Speaking of which, with a change like this how is route knowledge handled? Clearly the railway hasn't had to retrain every driver and guard "on the ground" so to speak as that would take weeks and be extremely disruptive- so are the changes just outlined in a briefing issued to crews when they clocked on this morning?

Back to the numbering, it has just occurred to me that the long term plan may well be to switch the numbers on the island permanently. Historically most stations on the route are numbered from the down side (down = lower numbers) with Huddersfield being the anomaly.

Well there you go - now I'm confused as well! I always thought P1 was the Up line, not the Down line. The line out from Leeds is UHU, which I always thought stood for Up Huddersfield, but Dewsbury trains call at P2. You'd assume Mirfield will match up with whatever the new Ravensthorpe has, as that's an island station in the fly-throughs I've seen.

If you think about Mirfield though, new P1 replaces old P1 - so you're still calling at P1 towards Leeds/Wakefield.

 

[Geeves]

It's really not too complicated when you think about it. All the trains that called P1 and P3 still do exactly that. Any trains that called at 2 in the system will now be on 3 because there's no other option.

As far as training goes as others have said there was a brief and the main output of that was simply to remember the doors are to be opened on the other side and to note platform length..

I don't think you could ask for less.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well there you go - now I'm confused as well! I always thought P1 was the Up line, not the Down line. The line out from Leeds is UHU, which I always thought stood for Up Huddersfield, but Dewsbury trains call at P2. You'd assume Mirfield will match up with whatever the new Ravensthorpe has, as that's an island station in the fly-throughs I've seen.

If you think about Mirfield though, new P1 replaces old P1 - so you're still calling at P1 towards Leeds/Wakefield.

Historically the "Up" side was towards Manchester on both the LNWR and the L&Y.

If you think about Mirfield though, new P1 replaces old P1 - so you're still calling at P1 towards Leeds/Wakefield.

It does in the interim, but once the work is complete the line towards Leeds & Wakefield will return to the original side of the island. Trains that currently use P3 will use the side of the island currently used by trains towards Leeds.

It's really not too complicated when you think about it. All the trains that called P1 and P3 still do exactly that. Any trains that called at 2 in the system will now be on 3 because there's no other option.

As far as training goes as others have said there was a brief and the main output of that was simply to remember the doors are to be opened on the other side and to note platform length..

I don't think you could ask for less.

Thanks. As a layperson all these things are a mystery until you ask the question!

 

[Geeves]

Thanks. As a layperson all these things are a mystery until you ask the question!

No problem at all

I could be wrong but I believe just for simplicity the platforms will go back to 1 and 2 with no moving around once everything is done. Huddersfield on the other hand looks like anything that can be renumbered will be! Good luck to them

 

[61653 HTAFC]

No problem at all

I could be wrong but I believe just for simplicity the platforms will go back to 1 and 2 with no moving around once everything is done. Huddersfield on the other hand looks like anything that can be renumbered will be! Good luck to them

That's pretty much what I expected, until this morning when what was P2 became P1. It's going to be a good while before the extended island is truly complete, so if users get used to P1 being where it is currently it'll be a bit of a culture shock if the numbering reverts to how it was before the work started. Then again I'm sure people will cope, they surely know which direction Leeds is in?!

I'll just add this latest video from the Sarah Bell channel, which shows the changes at Mirfield. The new entrance certainly looks a bit fancier than the old one... Hopefully the new bit of platform will be a bit sturdier than the old bit too!

 

[superkev]

That's pretty much what I expected, until this morning when what was P2 became P1. It's going to be a good while before the extended island is truly complete, so if users get used to P1 being where it is currently it'll be a bit of a culture shock if the numbering reverts to how it was before the work started. Then again I'm sure people will cope, they surely know which direction Leeds is in?!

I'll just add this latest video from the Sarah Bell channel, which shows the changes at Mirfield. The new entrance certainly looks a bit fancier than the old one... Hopefully the new bit of platform will be a bit sturdier than the old bit too!

Looks a job well done although looked a bit last minute ish.
Interesting to note a new east facing signal at the Leeds end of new eastbound Platform (1). Presumably this will be redundant when the original Eastbound platform 1 is restored..
K

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Looks a job well done although looked a bit last minute ish.
Interesting to note a new east facing signal at the Leeds end of new eastbound Platform (1). Presumably this will be redundant when the original Eastbound platform 1 is restored..
K

There's definitely lots of work still to do. I was surprised at how large the street-level "lobby" area is before reaching the staircase- must have been a lot of spoil to excavate!

Presumably that signal will be repurposed elsewhere. Maybe just moved over to perform the same role on the realigned down slow, when that happens.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

is there an overhead line neutral section between Guide Bridge and Stalybridge?

 

[fishwomp]

There's definitely lots of work still to do. I was surprised at how large the street-level "lobby" area is before reaching the staircase- must have been a lot of spoil to excavate!
.

Also surprised, will have cost more as a result. Longer walk for everyone, a new place replete with corners for hanging around out of sight and being up to no good, or taking a leak etc.. will definitely have and need security cameras. wondering why they would do that - space for barriers, a refuge, passenger flow (as if!).

 

[bigbigcheese]

Why does TRU eletrification not go to Hull via Selby? Hull seems to be a fairly common final destination for TPE trains and northern trains alike, and electrifying from Selby to the ECML would also allow Hull Trains to purchase a full electric fleet (If you electrify up to Beverley). Seems like it would be a decent return on investment and in line with the current TRU up to Micklefield Junction.

 

[zwk500]

Why does TRU eletrification not go to Hull via Selby? Hull seems to be a fairly common final destination for TPE trains and northern trains alike, and electrifying from Selby to the ECML would also allow Hull Trains to purchase a full electric fleet (If you electrify up to Beverley). Seems like it would be a decent return on investment and in line with the current TRU up to Micklefield Junction.

Primarily (or almost entirely) money. Lots of cost on that route, comparatively limited benefits compared to the big fish of Leeds and the ECML.

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/why-isn’t-hull-being-electrified-under-the-trans-pennine-route-upgrade.282156/

(FWIW I think Micklefield-Hull + connecting lines at Hambleton and Selby-Temple Hirst with triangle should be the next phase, but I can see why it's not been committed)

 

[Grimsby town]

Also surprised, will have cost more as a result. Longer walk for everyone, a new place replete with corners for hanging around out of sight and being up to no good, or taking a leak etc.. will definitely have and need security cameras. wondering why they would do that - space for barriers, a refuge, passenger flow (as if!).

It's probably to do with landing areas for the lifts, the need to provide space for wheelchairs to access the area and use ticket machines which I assume are also going to be based in that area. It being wider probably makes it feel safer too. There's perpendicular walls for people to hide behind as well which should make the area feel more inviting.

 

[superkev]

It's probably to do with landing areas for the lifts, the need to provide space for wheelchairs to access the area and use ticket machines which I assume are also going to be based in that area. It being wider probably makes it feel safer too. There's perpendicular walls for people to hide behind as well which should make the area feel more inviting.

As the new platform is now in use presumably the ticket machjme are located on the platform.
Ultimately i woukd think ghe most used access woukd be from ghe car park via the proposed new bridge and lifts.
K

 

[Grimsby town]

As the new platform is noin use presumably the ticket machjme are located on the platform.
Ultimately i woukd think ghe most used access woukd be from ghe car park via the proposed new bridge and lifts.
K

Possibly. Having looked at the proposed images again it looks like the the lifts are located further away from the street so one lift shaft can be used for both the footbridge and street access.

 

[Ben427]

Primarily (or almost entirely) money. Lots of cost on that route, comparatively limited benefits compared to the big fish of Leeds and the ECML.

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/why-isn’t-hull-being-electrified-under-the-trans-pennine-route-upgrade.282156/

(FWIW I think Micklefield-Hull + connecting lines at Hambleton and Selby-Temple Hirst with triangle should be the next phase, but I can see why it's not been committed)

Micklefield to Hambleton I think would be relatively straightforward and give benefits for LNER moving forward. And it shouldn't be that hard to tack onto the existing work programme (relatively speaking?

 

[zwk500]

Micklefield to Hambleton I think would be relatively straightforward and give benefits for LNER moving forward.

It's arguably the section that gives the least benefit, as all it allows is LNER to run out of Leeds via Micklefield on Electric, which they don't do particularly often, and have bi-modes if they do need to do it in an emergency. OLE projects need to be based on a regular operation use-case, which is why I'd prioritise Doncaster-Hull via Selby, to get the benefits of the highest-revenue trains with the biggest economic impact (to/from London) to cover the largest section of costs. Once that's done, Selby-Micklefield is a smaller section of infill to allow local trains to go all-electric and the 4 chords (Sherburn-Gascoigne Wood, both Hambletons, and Selby avoiding) would be essentially part of the overruns anyway.

And it shouldn't be that hard to tack onto the existing work programme (relatively speaking?

Possibly, although it's presumably not had any recent investigation or design work so you'd need to jump through PACE 1 and 2 extremely quickly to be able to follow on from the existing project without a break in the workflow.

 

[Ben427]

It's arguably the section that gives the least benefit, as all it allows is LNER to run out of Leeds via Micklefield on Electric, which they don't do particularly often, and have bi-modes if they do need to do it in an emergency. OLE projects need to be based on a regular operation use-case, which is why I'd prioritise Doncaster-Hull via Selby, to get the benefits of the highest-revenue trains with the biggest economic impact (to/from London) to cover the largest section of costs. Once that's done, Selby-Micklefield is a smaller section of infill to allow local trains to go all-electric and the 4 chords (Sherburn-Gascoigne Wood, both Hambletons, and Selby avoiding) would be essentially part of the overruns anyway.

Possibly, although it's presumably not had any recent investigation or design work so you'd need to jump through PACE 1 and 2 extremely quickly to be able to follow on from the existing project without a break in the workflow.

IMO the business case will not have much to do with revenue increases, it will come from economic and social benefits via GJT etc

Electrifying to Hambleton will be a much lower cost, and while at present LNER doesn't use it much electrification opens up flexibility elsewhere on the network to increase capacity and frequency

I'd argue some of the local services and lines could easily be battery operated rather than expensive OLE in the near future and this will be taken into account for business cases more and more.

 

[Halish Railway]

A few pictures I took today of the registration arms installed between Micklefield and Church Fenton and the civils work to build a new access road over the railway south of Church Fenton.

I have to say that as single track cantilevers this is probably the most aesthetically pleasing electrification that has been installed recently, much nicer looking than the F&F Series 1 and Bonomi Series 2 cantilevers in my opinion.

On another note, I didn’t realise that although in the southbound direction, 125mph running finishes to the north of the the River Wharfe underbridge, going north it starts immediately north of Church Fenton station.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

A few pictures I took today of the registration arms installed between Micklefield and Church Fenton and the civils work to build a new access road over the railway south of Church Fenton.

View attachment 178957

Thanks for posting. I have edited my reply to show this shot which has the "Tensorex drums" showing. They are really making very pleasing progress indeed.

 

[YorksLad12]

A few pictures I took today of the registration arms installed between Micklefield and Church Fenton and the civils work to build a new access road over the railway south of Church Fenton.

I have to say that as single track cantilevers this is probably the most aesthetically pleasing electrification that has been installed recently, much nicer looking than the F&F Series 1 and Bonomi Series 2 cantilevers in my opinion.

On another note, I didn’t realise that although in the southbound direction, 125mph running finishes to the north of the the River Wharfe underbridge, going north it starts immediately north of Church Fenton station.


View attachment 178951View attachment 178952View attachment 178953View attachment 178954View attachment 178955View attachment 178956View attachment 178957View attachment 178958View attachment 178959

Good photos - I neglected to do the same yesterday morning, out and back!

Given how smoothly (relatively speaking) TRU is going, and MML, I'm surprised there's not more 'fuss' made about it. Both projects seem to be doing better than GWEP did at a similar stage. Being able to do TRU without drama is going to be a great help in unlocking funding for future schemes.

 

[zwk500]

Good photos - I neglected to do the same yesterday morning, out and back!

Given how smoothly (relatively speaking) TRU is going, and MML, I'm surprised there's not more 'fuss' made about it. Both projects seem to be doing better than GWEP did at a similar stage. Being able to do TRU without drama is going to be a great help in unlocking funding for future schemes.

Arguably it's going rather smoothly *because* little fuss is being made.

 

[fishwomp]

A few pictures I took today of the registration arms installed between Micklefield and Church Fenton and the civils work to build a new access road over the railway south of Church Fenton.

I have to say that as single track cantilevers this is probably the most aesthetically pleasing electrification that has been installed recently, much nicer looking than the F&F Series 1 and Bonomi Series 2 cantilevers in my opinion.

On another note, I didn’t realise that although in the southbound direction, 125mph running finishes to the north of the the River Wharfe underbridge, going north it starts immediately north of Church Fenton station.


View attachment 178951View attachment 178952View attachment 178953View attachment 178954View attachment 178955View attachment 178956View attachment 178957View attachment 178958View attachment 178959

Thanks for sharing (genuinely!) - but I couldn't help but think "pylon of the month" when seeing this and other expressions of the beauty ( https://www.pylonofthemonth.org/ is a website devoted to you know what..)