TransPennine South route ‘forgotten about’?

[childwallblues]

It's always been a lower priority- back in Northern Spirit days you'd often see a 156- but IIRC the 170s were allocated on the Hull-Manchesters. The real pain was when Chiltern nabbed the 170s.

It is appalling to see Ardwick full of stock and them sending a 3-car out. When the Middlesbrough is 3 instead of 6 its miserable.

Ardwick services Northerns 323s overnight in the Manchester area.

 

[JD2168]

South Transpennine not helped on Wednesday night by a blockage on the line around Stockport/Chinley which caused almost no Trains to run much after 7pm & replaced by Road Transport. There was also a broken down Train for part of the day causing problems as well.

 

[py_megapixel]

South Transpennine not helped on Wednesday night by a blockage on the line around Stockport/Chinley which caused almost no Trains to run much after 7pm & replaced by Road Transport. There was also a broken down Train for part of the day causing problems as well.

Were there two blockages, one at Stockport and one at Chinley? They're not really anywhere near each other...

 

[alexl92]

Are all the Mk5 sets moving to the South TPE route then? I thought they were ordered specifically with Scarborough services in mind?

 

[py_megapixel]

Are all the Mk5 sets moving to the South TPE route then? I thought they were ordered specifically with Scarborough services in mind?

I heard that Mk5s are to be removed from most Scarborough diagrams because of noise complaints from local residents!

 

[LowLevel]

Were there two blockages, one at Stockport and one at Chinley? They're not really anywhere near each other...

A failed Northern 156 on the down at Edale stuffed up most of the morning and into the afternoon, and once that had been cleared up the Chinley signaller had to stop a freight train that was chucking stone out of unsecured wagons that wrecked the later afternoon and evening.

 

[VauxhallNova]

Are all the Mk5 sets moving to the South TPE route then? I thought they were ordered specifically with Scarborough services in mind?

Yes, but the failure to invest in a power supply for the depot meant that diesel locos ran all night.

 

[johnnychips]

I have a flight at 1745 from Manchester tonight, which I didn’t really want to miss, so I got the 1142 from Doncaster ‘just in case’. It was full and standing, 3-car (and the guard apologised profusely). The 1242 was cancelled, so a good decision.
Pre-Covid I always used TPE for morning and evening flights without any qualms, and in about thirty times, it only let me down once (not their fault either).
It’s such a shame it has come to this.

 

[geoffk]

That is appalling. All of the East Midlands services are cancelled too because of the Unite strike. So anyone who wants to travel from Manchester to Sheffield in the late morning or mid-late afternoon has to go on the Hope Valley stopper (and, if they were travelling to somewhere in the Stockport area, double back)!.

In a world with joined-up thinking, Northern might have doubled up the stoppers to partially compensate, but they're mostly single 195s. And of the few TPE services that are running, all but one diagram is a single 185.

And, if the Northern stopper is full leaving Sheffield with Manchester-bound passengers (or vice versa) those at intermediate stations east of New Mills have no alternative at all.

 

[Dore & Totley]

I took this pic at Sheffield just after 4 today. The fast train was cancelled so this was the queue for the stopper. The late running EMR pulled in at 8a and I counted about a couple of dozen moving across to the stopper as the advice was being given to use the stopper. Also, the tannoy was announcing the next direct train to Doncaster was the 16.59, so nothing for nearly 50 minutes

 

[yorksrob]

I took this pic at Sheffield just after 4 today. The fast train was cancelled so this was the queue for the stopper. The late running EMR pulled in at 8a and I counted about a couple of dozen moving across to the stopper as the advice was being given to use the stopper. Also, the tannoy was announcing the next direct train to Doncaster was the 16.59, so nothing for nearly 50 minutes

Sad thing is, that's fairly genteel for Sheffield these days !

 

[Dore & Totley]

I hate to think what the stopper after 5pm on a weekday looks like

 

[Killingworth]

Don't see this being posted elsewhere, from BBC News website, Rail Minister Huw at the Transport Select Committee. Full article at; https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64317725

Transpennine problems​

Mr Merriman also said train operator Transpennine Express' contract is under review.
Transpennine, which operates across the North of England and into Scotland, has been cancelling trains daily for months.
The company blames high sickness rates and a backlog of driver training due to the pandemic for cancellations.
Mr Merriman said that when the Transpennine Express contract comes to end in May, he is "already looking at what needs to be done... with regards to that contract".
He said he had weekly data on Transpennine and another troubled operator, Avanti West Coast, and was monitoring what they were doing to turn things around.
The government recently gave Avanti six months to the end of March, to urgently improve.
A spokesperson for TransPennine Express said on Thursday: "We are committed to the communities we serve and want to assure our customers that we are doing all we can to deliver a train service they can rely on."
Transpennine "continues to work flat-out to deliver higher levels of service delivery and to tackle the issues that are being experienced by customers," the spokesperson added.

 

[TurbineEnginee]

“It won’t be. Maximum carriage length during TPRU will be 5 and 6. The simple reason? Because they can’t fit onto the platforms on the route, services will call at Brighouse instead of Huddersfield which has a 4/5 carriage length.”

I hope you don’t mind a question about this. I frequently ride on a route (non-UK) where the platforms vary in length, and some of the trains are longer than all of the platforms and some of the platforms are shorter than all of the trains.

They deal with this by opening the appropriate number of doors at each station.

Is it just not possible to organize the infrastructure such that it can open the appropriate number of doors?

 

[TreacleMiller]

You'd need to have a belieze in the platforms, some stations already do this others do not.

Our system is gps based, still requires driver to be in correct position and open correct side doors.

It would solve both wrongside door opening and sdo on DOO units but it's not common place.

As for TPE, I've long suggested that the Southern route be axed and replaced with a service from EMR or Northern.

 

[swt_passenger]

Don't see this being posted elsewhere, from BBC News website, Rail Minister Huw at the Transport Select Committee. Full article at; https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64317725

There was also a thread started in the speculation forum, (without the BBC link), here:

Future of TPE

In your ideal outcome, what would you like to see happen to TPE? It's been hinted by Huw Merriman today that the company could bevmerged with Northern; as far as I'm concerned that would be the best option, but how would that work in practice? And is that the best course to pursue?

www.railforums.co.uk

The subject of TPE also came up in a thread about the select committee meeting here:

Merriman at Transport Committee 18/1

deleted 1674045152 Huw appeared at TSC this morning reasonable outing and certainly picks up on a lot of issues shared across the forum. He has five goals for Rail https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/d3a22326-aa75-42c8-8acf-2f64289787d1 Hansard lags by a few hours 1. Sort out industrial...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If you look at the North TP route, there are several intermediate stops between what you'd call the "major" calling points of Leeds and Manchester which justify calls on expresses. Not just Huddersfield which gets all services calling, but also Stalybridge and Dewsbury which get calls on some. Then there's Batley, which arguably would justify at least the same level of service as those two, but for the poorly-located station and more decentralised population. Being so close to Dewsbury also doesn't help.
On the Hope Valley there are no significantly sized places between Stockport and Sheffield. This means there's not much additional demand besides the Manchester to Sheffield market.

That said, I do think there would be some advantages to having all "fast" services on the route being provided by the same operator.

 

[Iskra]

If you look at the North TP route, there are several intermediate stops between what you'd call the "major" calling points of Leeds and Manchester which justify calls on expresses. Not just Huddersfield which gets all services calling, but also Stalybridge and Dewsbury which get calls on some. Then there's Batley, which arguably would justify at least the same level of service as those two, but for the poorly-located station and more decentralised population. Being so close to Dewsbury also doesn't help.
On the Hope Valley there are no significantly sized places between Stockport and Sheffield. This means there's not much additional demand besides the Manchester to Sheffield market.

That said, I do think there would be some advantages to having all "fast" services on the route being provided by the same operator.

There is also the point that Sheffield-Manchester has alternative operators twice each hour. That's not to say that it's acceptable for TP to abandon their service commitments and passengers however, especially when they theoretically run the longest trains on the route.

It's also possible that as many trains are cancelled on the 'core' route, but it has less of an impact due to their being more other services each hour.

 

[Killingworth]

There is also the point that Sheffield-Manchester has alternative operators twice each hour. That's not to say that it's acceptable for TP to abandon their service commitments and passengers however, especially when they theoretically run the longest trains on the route.

It's also possible that as many trains are cancelled on the 'core' route, but it has less of an impact due to their being more other services each hour.

It's almost hard to believe that pre-Covid there were complaints about first class passengers standing and sitting on the floor of these services. Standard class passengers struggled to even get aboard to contort themselves around luggage and bikes. For a short period from about mid-February 2020 until Covid struck most trains had finally become 6 car and they were turning up, mostly to time. Blink and you'd have missed it. It can be done.

The worst hardship is east of Sheffield to Cleethorpes where alternatives arr limited. However the irregularity of the cancellations is as bad as the number. A co-ordinated reduced timetable that always ran would allow the other operators to plan their services to better support it.

I travelled back from Piccadilly towards Sheffield on Tuesday using the Northern service. As I waited I couldn't help noticing the huddles of TPE staff gathered around the barriers, and the almost total lack of TPE trains. In that hour only South Pennine seemed to be running, apologies from TPE kept coming for yet another cancelled service. The 3 car Northern train was busy despite both the TPE and EMR services in that hour running. As a fellow passenger (a daily uses for work) told me, he was happy to take the extra time hit to travel on a comfortable train that was more likely to run and to leave on time - and usually cheaper.

 

[LowLevel]

It's almost hard to believe that pre-Covid there were complaints about first class passengers standing and sitting on the floor of these services. Standard class passengers struggled to even get aboard to contort themselves around luggage and bikes. For a short period from about mid-February 2020 until Covid struck most trains had finally become 6 car and they were turning up, mostly to time. Blink and you'd have missed it. It can be done.

The worst hardship is east of Sheffield to Cleethorpes where alternatives arr limited. However the irregularity of the cancellations is as bad as the number. A co-ordinated reduced timetable that always ran would allow the other operators to plan their services to better support it.

I travelled back from Piccadilly towards Sheffield on Tuesday using the Northern service. As I waited I couldn't help noticing the huddles of TPE staff gathered around the barriers, and the almost total lack of TPE trains. In that hour only South Pennine seemed to be running, apologies from TPE kept coming for yet another cancelled service. The 3 car Northern train was busy despite both the TPE and EMR services in that hour running. As a fellow passenger (a daily uses for work) told me, he was happy to take the extra time hit to travel on a comfortable train that was more likely to run and to leave on time - and usually cheaper.

Though with the 170s coming online in large numbers the EMR unit situation has improved drastically - yesterday there was only 1 shortformed Liverpool service due to a 158 having a coupling defect which was only discovered when the attempt was made to couple which resulted in one unit being a failure.

The day before I think they were all 4 cars bar one 3 car 170.

Today they're all showing the booked 4 car.

This despite the cold weather historically upsetting the 15x and 170 fleets.

 

[Killingworth]

Though with the 170s coming online in large numbers the EMR unit situation has improved drastically - yesterday there was only 1 shortformed Liverpool service due to a 158 having a coupling defect which was only discovered when the attempt was made to couple which resulted in one unit being a failure.

The day before I think they were all 4 cars bar one 3 car 170.

Today they're all showing the booked 4 car.

This despite the cold weather historically upsetting the 15x and 170 fleets.

EMR are a different topic, greatly improved of late. Their 1R52 is possibly only booked for 2 car although 4 would be better on the 7.28 out of Sheffield for Liverpool. It has a good punctuality record. 1R50 at 6.18 is also 2 car today but stopping along the Hope Valley it is following the TPE 6.09 - which seems to run more often than their following 2 services! It has an excellent punctuality record, 100% over the last 4 weeks.

 

[Jamesrob637]

EMR are a different topic, greatly improved of late. Their 1R52 is possibly only booked for 2 car although 4 would be better on the 7.28 out of Sheffield for Liverpool. It has a good punctuality record. 1R50 at 6.18 is also 2 car today but stopping along the Hope Valley it is following the TPE 6.09 - which seems to run more often than their following 2 services! It has an excellent punctuality record, 100% over the last 4 weeks.

1R52 needs to be booked 4-car as it's a peak service into Manchester. The 170s are ok but they can't be doubled. 6-far EMR would be very good indeed.

 

[LowLevel]

1R52 needs to be booked 4-car as it's a peak service into Manchester. The 170s are ok but they can't be doubled. 6-far EMR would be very good indeed.

The 170s can be doubled, there just aren't enough of them.

1R50 and 1R52 are 2 car to allow them to couple at Lime Street which saves a driver and guard diagram with the 0851 departure still missing. Perhaps this will change in May. 1R52 reports as full and standing pretty much every day but it does only tend to get properly full from Hazel Grove as long as TPE are running.

 

[Broken70]

Non of the EMR services are actually booked for anything other than 158 2 or 4 car. Let's be honest a 170 is better than an hour in the cold.

 

[D365]

Are 170s operating west of Sheffield now?

 

[MattRat]

Isn't there a thing that they can't use 68s on certain routes because of NIM....I mean, complaints?

 

[bunnahabhain]

Well, good news for EMR is that all 26 Class 158s are remaining with the fleet and the refurbishment ball is rolling for 158s and 170s. So in the coming years the service provision should improve. In the summer I believe 170s will be booked on some services to release 158s for Skegness.

There are conversations floating around related to the South TPE route and perhaps providing something of a "crutch" to TPE from Nottingham, Derby and Lincoln depots. But that can sit in the "we'll see if that will happen" pile for now.

 

[londonmidland]

There are conversations floating around related to the South TPE route and perhaps providing something of a "crutch" to TPE from Nottingham, Derby and Lincoln depots. But that can sit in the "we'll see if that will happen" pile for now.

Wasn’t TPE supposed to take over the NOT-LIV service from EMT/EMR but that fell through the floor because of COVID?

Out of interest the 185s have Derby, Nottingham and Leicester programmed into their PIS.

 

[swt_passenger]

Wasn’t TPE supposed to take over the NOT-LIV service from EMT/EMR but that fell through the floor because of COVID?

That transfer had already been cancelled in Jan 2020 when the Dec 2020 EMR timetable consultation was published, so not Covid related.

 

[Mugby]

Weren't the Nova's due to start running on the South route from the December timetable change? Doesn't seem to be happening so far!