TransPennine South route ‘forgotten about’?

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Are 170s operating west of Sheffield now?

For a number of months they've run in place of Sprinters on Liverpool Norwich many times, but haven't actually been booked. The three carriage ex-SR /4s tend to do that a lot more than the two carriage ex-WM /5s, though both have done it. There's a rather good picture somewhere that someone took of two EMR 170/4s passing in service at either Warrington Central or Widnes, and I believe the CrossCountry 170 that was hired in ended up doing a Liverpool Norwich service in full; I'd personally find that somewhat of an upgrade if I found myself in the first class section - only that 170 though, as the others are relentlessly shabby.

Tuesday's 1L10 1051 Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich was 170420.

Weren't the Nova's due to start running on the South route from the December timetable change? Doesn't seem to be happening so far!

Currently the Nova 3 is booked to work only:

1B64 0543 Man Apt - Cleethorpes &
1B85 1524 Cleethorpes - Liv Lime St,

but the reality is, the booked 68+MK5a set often does not materialise, and when it does the return is often truncated at Manchester Piccadilly. The usage of Nova 3 sets continues to be very poor especially when 3-185 is being used increasingly often for busy services, but I think staff training comes down to a lot of it.

Last Friday, 1B64 was 3-185 vice 5-68/MK5a. On Monday, Tuesday and Thursday it does not appear to have run at all. Yesterday, it was 3-185 vice 5-68/MK5a, started late at Manchester Piccadilly, and terminated short at Sheffield.

Last Friday, 1B85 was 3-185 vice 5-68/MK5a. 1B85 doesn't appear to have run at all this week, not according to RTT departures between 1500 and 1600 at Cleethorpes, anyway.

 

[bunnahabhain]

That transfer had already been cancelled in Jan 2020 when the Dec 2020 EMR timetable consultation was published, so not Covid related.

It was cancelled around April 2020 to the best of my knowledge. Covid kicked off and the DfT suddenly became more averse to spending money on TPE route learning and recruiting at Sheffield for the extra work.

 

[Killingworth]

EMR are a different topic, greatly improved of late. Their 1R52 is possibly only booked for 2 car although 4 would be better on the 7.28 out of Sheffield for Liverpool. It has a good punctuality record. 1R50 at 6.18 is also 2 car today but stopping along the Hope Valley it is following the TPE 6.09 - which seems to run more often than their following 2 services! It has an excellent punctuality record, 100% over the last 4 weeks.

Spoke too soon. 1R50 20 minutes late at Sheffield today.1R52 25 late and 1L06 skipped Dore and Sheffield.altogether. .

 

[bunnahabhain]

Spoke too soon. 1R50 20 minutes late at Sheffield today.1R52 25 late and 1L06 skipped Dore and Sheffield.altogether. .

Signalling failure between Ironville Junction and Clay Cross this morning which required modified working with subsequent delays incurred on those. It's nothing compared to the 5hr gap in service for TPE on the route.

 

[Andyh82]

Not just the south route. Yesterday there was no service from Huddersfield to Leeds from 0717 to 0847

One in between was cancelled, the others were all P coded, the stopper was P coded, and then looking on realtimetrains a 3 car 185 turned up

And there was nothing running towards Manchester either during the same time period, all services cancelled the previous night

 

[TreacleMiller]

Weren't the Nova's due to start running on the South route from the December timetable change? Doesn't seem to be happening so far!

Asked a friend at TPE that question. Rolled his eyes when I asked!

 

[SteveyBee131]

Weren't the Nova's due to start running on the South route from the December timetable change? Doesn't seem to be happening so far!

It happened for one day, the Monday of timetable change week. The day after was start of a week of strikes, then holidays etc and more strikes, and they haven't come back since!

 

[Freemo]

Nothing for four hours in either direction through Sheffield from 1411 today, with the services on each side of the gap 3 car. Tasty!

 

[Killingworth]

Seems EMR and Northern are looking into how they can help out, maybe 6 car by Northern at weekends, loaned 156s back to EMR. But not a lot of scope when the cancellations are so last minute and random and spare stock isn't readily available

To think TPE were offering the best and newest stock with catering and first class to be first choice across Penninrs on the south route only 3 years ago. Today the slowest or oldest are the better ways to go.

 

[Mugby]

There was a 6-car Northern set (double 3-car 195s) working into Sheffield during the Christmas period, something I never expected to see.

How do they cope with the platform lengths at the Hope Valley stations?

 

[CE142]

There was a 6-car Northern set (double 3-car 195s) working into Sheffield during the Christmas period, something I never expected to see.

How do they cope with the platform lengths at the Hope Valley stations?

The 195s have the ASDO System fitted, so the on board Computer should know the platform lengths of all the stations on the route and how many doors it will be able to be released when the Guard releases the doors.

 

[Killingworth]

There was a 6-car Northern set (double 3-car 195s) working into Sheffield during the Christmas period, something I never expected to see.

How do they cope with the platform lengths at the Hope Valley stations?

The 6 coach train is great for capacity. It's not so great for passengers wanting any of the intermediate stations if they board the rear two coaches at Piccadilly or Sheffield, especially if they have a bike, push chair, wheelchair, back pack or luggage. That comes down to platform staff endeavouring to ensure that only full journey, end to end, users get into the last 2 coaches. Sometime the message seems to get through too well so the front 3 coaches are rammed, the 4th quite well filled and the last 2 almost empty. All intermediate stations take 4 coaches. I've seen a train held at Dore while a father held the door on coach 4 to allow the buggy and young child to be pushed through from the 6th.

However load spreading is a topic for another thread.

 

[MattRat]

The 6 coach train is great for capacity. It's not so great for passengers wanting any of the intermediate stations if they board the rear two coaches at Piccadilly or Sheffield, especially if they have a bike, push chair, wheelchair, back pack or luggage. That comes down to platform staff endeavouring to ensure that only full journey, end to end, users get into the last 2 coaches. Sometime the message seems to get through too well so the front 3 coaches are rammed, the 4th quite well filled and the last 2 almost empty. All intermediate stations take 4 coaches. I've seen a train held at Dore while a father held the door on coach 4 to allow the buggy and young child to be pushed through from the 6th.

However load spreading is a topic for another thread.

It's a shame the front car can't overhang. That could help spread the load across the train easier, as you only have one coach to travel if the other 4 are rammed.

 

[Ianigsy]

I spent about 2 hours in total at Doncaster last Friday and didn’t see a single TPE service running in either direction. One was due to pass through about 15 minutes after I left but that was it.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

TPE MD Matthew Golton has sent a letter out to "stakeholders" apologising for the performance and states that although he has plenty of drivers he cannot improve the service unless a rest day work agreeement is put in place. He has also admitted route knowledge is an issue, especially as diversionary route knowledge as

Well, conductors and drivers have been complaining about route knowledge cutbacks for over 3 years yet despite this some depots have seen further cutbacks to routes and the appriopriate knowledge required at the last timetable change in december.

Sounds like the pigeons have well and truly come home to roost to me....

 

[Confused52]

TPE MD Matthew Golton has sent a letter out to "stakeholders" apologising for the performance and states that although he has plenty of drivers he cannot improve the service unless a rest day work agreeement is put in place. He has also admitted route knowledge is an issue, especially as diversionary route knowledge as

How can you have "plenty of drivers" and yet need a rest day working agreement. It doesn't sound like route knowledge can be the answer as it should be included in the roster and should work with plenty of drivers. What else is going on?

 

[TreacleMiller]

I witnessed a Driver and Gaurd both stunned when a South Route was cancelled on my way back home, despite them being at the station. Its a cluster of mistakes clearly.

 

[Sleepy]

TPE unreliability 2nd item on BBC 6.00 news tonight https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64412789

 

[Killingworth]

TPE unreliability 2nd item on BBC 6.00 news tonight https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64412789

A friend booked from Barnetby to Preston today. When I heard I feared the worst. Both trains ran to time, connection no problem and refreshments provided. He was pleased with the train, the customer service and the punctuality. He was picking up a new car so drove back. Trains are not his normal means of travel but he'd use them more if he knew all journeys would be like that.

If only they were.

Updated. Estimated about 80% full in 1st and over 100% in standard, 3 coaches but staffed for 6!

Not a good day today, Saturday 28th, over the Sheffield - Manchester - Liverpool section.

TPE diverted via Marple due to engineering work. EMR not running over this section at all.

Most TPE trains only 3 car and unable to pick up all waiting in Sheffield. Northern 3 car trains rammed full and hard to board at intermediate stations. Probably similar from the Piccadilly end.

Gauging true demand in these circumstances is impossible

 

[Frothy_B]

Updated. Estimated about 80% full in 1st and over 100% in standard, 3 coaches but staffed for 6!

Not a good day today, Saturday 28th, over the Sheffield - Manchester - Liverpool section.

TPE diverted via Marple due to engineering work. EMR not running over this section at all.

Most TPE trains only 3 car and unable to pick up all waiting in Sheffield. Northern 3 car trains rammed full and hard to board at intermediate stations. Probably similar from the Piccadilly end.

Gauging true demand in these circumstances is impossible

My Dad and I travelled the Southern route yesterday and as it stands it will be my one and only time using TPE.

We we're due to get the TPE from Sheffield but apon seeing the number of people waiting and seeing how many were already on board we decided to go on the Northern stopper instead as we had a bit of leeway in our schedule on the way out. This was also rammed leaving Sheffield, but by New Mills it had cleared a bit. Still stood the whole way, but with at least enough room to be comfortable.

Our return was the 19:13 off Manchester, which we needed to get. People were stood expecting a 6 car, and there were alot of them. Knowing it was going to be a 3, we stood at the 3 car area and as a result at least managed to get seats in the vestibule for my Dads knees. It wasn't just full and standing, it was imo unsafe the number of people crammed on board.

The guard bless her sounded like she had an incredibly bad shift, who apologised for the short formation. We did have to chuckle as she said before departure that refreshments would be offered when it was obvious nobody was moving on that train at all.

My Dad, who's worked on the railway for 40 years and has been an enthusiast for longer said as we got off in Sheffield "I've been on some bad journeys in my time but that ranks up there with them"

 

[Killingworth]

My Dad and I travelled the Southern route yesterday and as it stands it will be my one and only time using TPE.

We we're due to get the TPE from Sheffield but apon seeing the number of people waiting and seeing how many were already on board we decided to go on the Northern stopper instead as we had a bit of leeway in our schedule on the way out. This was also rammed leaving Sheffield, but by New Mills it had cleared a bit. Still stood the whole way, but with at least enough room to be comfortable.

Our return was the 19:13 off Manchester, which we needed to get. People were stood expecting a 6 car, and there were alot of them. Knowing it was going to be a 3, we stood at the 3 car area and as a result at least managed to get seats in the vestibule for my Dads knees. It wasn't just full and standing, it was imo unsafe the number of people crammed on board.

The guard bless her sounded like she had an incredibly bad shift, who apologised for the short formation. We did have to chuckle as she said before departure that refreshments would be offered when it was obvious nobody was moving on that train at all.

My Dad, who's worked on the railway for 40 years and has been an enthusiast for longer said as we got off in Sheffield "I've been on some bad journeys in my time but that ranks up there with them"

Due to engineering work this Sunday there are no trains tfrough the Hope Valley or from Hazel Grove into Stockport,

TPE hourly trains are diverted via Huddersfield. From the first 7 trains due to run west today 2 are 6 car. The other 5 have been cancelled!

The provision of bus substitute services needs a new thread. Norrhern are bussing to New Mills, then Piccadilly later tonight. EMR are bussing to Stockport. I picture chaos in Sheffield and at all points to anf from Piccadilly.

 

[Mugby]

I can't understand why TPE were operating between Sheffield and Manchester yesterday but EMR weren't.

Was it simply because EMR drivers don't sign the Romiley route anymore?

 

[dosxuk]

I can't understand why TPE were operating between Sheffield and Manchester yesterday but EMR weren't.

Was it simply because EMR drivers don't sign the Romiley route anymore?

Hope Valley is closed - TPE are diverting via Huddersfield - I don't think EMR or their predecessors have ever diverted up that way.

 

[dk1]

I can't understand why TPE were operating between Sheffield and Manchester yesterday but EMR weren't.

Was it simply because EMR drivers don't sign the Romiley route anymore?

No EMR crews would sign the diverging route.

 

[Killingworth]

I can't understand why TPE were operating between Sheffield and Manchester yesterday but EMR weren't.

Was it simply because EMR drivers don't sign the Romiley route anymore?

Hope Valley was open on Saturday (not today) but the line from Hazel Grove to Stockport was shut with bus substitute for Buxton route users. One spare hourly path to divert via Romiley/Marple went to TPE. EMR sign that route with an ECS in each direction running tomorrow and ran on Friday, see; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...7/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=EM

 

[LowLevel]

No EMR crews would sign the diverging route.

Most Nottingham guards, some Derby guards and some of the drivers sign via Romiley. I think shortage of spare paths is the issue.

Personally I sign the main standard route, plus East Midlands Parkway - Ilkeston, Attenborough - Ilkeston, Nottingham - Derby - Chesterfield, Chesterfield - Woodhouse - Sheffield, Chinley - Reddish North - Manchester, Manchester - Newton-le-Willows - Liverpool.

EMR diversionary knowledge is pretty good.

 

[dk1]

Most Nottingham guards, some Derby guards and some of the drivers sign via Romiley. I think shortage of spare paths is the issue.

Personally I sign the main standard route, plus East Midlands Parkway - Ilkeston, Attenborough - Ilkeston, Nottingham - Derby - Chesterfield, Chesterfield - Woodhouse - Sheffield, Chinley - Reddish North - Manchester, Manchester - Newton-le-Willows - Liverpool.

EMR diversionary knowledge is pretty good.

Romiley is not the issue nor any you mention. The Hope Valley is blocked. These TPE trains are operating via Wakefield Kirkgate & Huddersfield.

 

[Killingworth]

Romiley is not the issue nor any you mention. The Hope Valley is blocked. These TPE trains are operating via Wakefield Kirkgate & Huddersfield.

However the Hope Valley line was open yesterday and is again on Saturday 4th, but the line from Hazel Grove to Stockport is shut. It appears there's only capacity for one extra hourly service via Romiley and that's gone to TPE who should be running 6 car trains.

Together with 3 car trains from Northern that should have maximised hourly carrying capacity to 9 cars between Sheffield and Manchester. Together with EMR it would normally be 13.

TPE only sent out one 6 car formation in each direction and cancelled one altogether, all the rest were 3. That meant there were only 6 cars an hour between the cities for almost all of the day, the one good hour with 9 balanced with the hour where Northern's 3 had to cope alone.

Some might suggest it would have been better if EMR had been allowed to use paths through Romiley instead of TPE so at least there'd have been 7 cars an hour. Loading 158s at Piccadilly and Sheffield is a nightmare when things get crowded. 6 car 185s should have been provided yesterday.

 

[LowLevel]

Romiley is not the issue nor any you mention. The Hope Valley is blocked. These TPE trains are operating via Wakefield Kirkgate & Huddersfield.

Yesterday was Romiley, today is Huddersfield.

 

[dk1]

Yesterday was Romiley, today is Huddersfield.

Ahh right I see. So only limited capacity given & that went to TPE.