Transpennine woes and a moan...

[lammergeier]

TPE to the rescue tonight.
XC 1S55 1427 Plymouth-Edinburgh failed a couple of miles north of Northallerton with a brake problem and declared a failure. Stood for approx 2hrs before setting back to Northallerton station and the passengers from 9 fairly full Voyager cars managed to squeeze onto the following TPE, 1P41 1954 Liverpool - Newcastle. Although some people may have waited for the LNER 30 minutes later.

Makes a pleasant change to see TPE bailing XC out instead

 

[uww11x]

Must admit I'm starting to lose my rag with TPE.

Very often, at least a couple times a week, they cancel the only useable Lockerbie - Glasgow (with an Edinburgh connection) morning commuter service (1S30). This means that passengers are now instead piling onto the 06:47 Dumfries to Glasgow (ex Carlisle) service, which can be fun when commuters from Kilmarnock try to join this already packed train instead, or people end up driving, increasing emissions and reducing the passenger numbers (not that TPE care). I understand it isn't possible to run all services, but being this is the only useable commuter service from Preston to Glasgow/Edinburgh (no Avanti's until a few hours later), I would've thought they would at least try to keep it running if they can.

The amount of money I've had to spend on fuel and the amount of delay repay cases I've had refused and had to appeal as a result of this service is slowly driving me mad!

I too use 1S30 from time to time. Risky train to catch, only once it's past Carlisle is it safe to venture out for. I got an anytime ticket last Tuesday with the expectation of ending up on the 06:07 to Glasgow via GSW. Much to my surprise 1S30 actually ran a full journey.

 

[Spartacus]

Presumably that’s generally because a relief crew isn’t available at a later point in the journey?

In this case his booked relief had been in the same messroom he'd just left. I wonder if an earlier one had been cancelled and someone in traincrew hadn't put 2 and 2 together and realised he could work the rest of his diagram by travelling pass on the train he was booked to work.

Having just checked the diagrams it would appear this was the case, driver still in York due to the planned cancellation of their earlier service.

This is mistaken. First do not save money and pocket any ‘benefits’ from the short notice changes / planned cancellations. The DfT do, but that‘s a different story. It’s fair to say that those involved at TPE would much rather be running the service they should be.

Don't get me wrong, I know this, but when drivers think the above, and are that peeved off they don't care know hears them say it, there's something seriously wrong.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

This is the folly of not having a traincrew controller in control! The traincrew resources no longer know what is going on and what alterations cancellations and disruption is occurring. This is merely being compounded by the lack of traincrew route knowledge. Not to mention the high frequency turnover of train crews on a service, it takes just one service to have a crew missing or delayed and the effect quickly snowballs

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Local MP Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) raised the following question to DfT ministers on 9th Nov

To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, what steps he is taking to help improve the services operated by TransPennine Express.

answer from Huw Merriman on 16th Nov

The Department, which manages TPE’s contract in partnership with Transport for the North, as a temporary solution and subject to strict conditions, agreed that TPE could introduce a revised timetable from mid-September 2022 for services it operates on the West Coast Main Line.

The amended timetable was discussed with Northern stakeholders, including the Manchester Airport Group and Transport for Greater Manchester, and entails reductions in services back to a similar level provided pre-May 2022, complemented by additional bus services in Cumbria and the Scottish Borders.

My officials have been in regular contact with TPE to manage the provision of services and have agreed a programme of measures to deliver a more reliable timetable, including:

• Ongoing review of timetables to establish a stable and reliable base in the short term;
• Introduction of additional drivers and conductors (currently being trained);
• Recruitment of 68 more drivers to reduce TPE’s reliance on rest day working and overtime; and
• Resolution with the unions of current industrial relations issues, including the possible reinstatement of rest day working, to increase available staff resources and operational flexibility.

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2022-11-09/83641

 

[mike57]

answer from Huw Merriman on 16th Nov

Typical politician reply, no timescales, not really anything beyond what TPE trot out anyway. From a passenger viewpoint doesn't give much hope to be honest. Also answer seems to apply to NW to Scotland route but not mention cross pennine services. I dont know if that a deliberate oversight or just the Minister not understanding the details.

 

[nr758123]

Also answer seems to apply to NW to Scotland route but not mention cross pennine services. I dont know if that a deliberate oversight or just the Minister not understanding the details.

Giving a partial answer, or answering the easy bits of a complaint whilst ignoring the more difficult bits, is a recognised method of complaints handling.

It's more of an answer than was given last month by his short-lived predecessor Kevin Foster, who seemed not to have been made aware that there was a problem with TPE.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Giving a partial answer, or answering the easy bits of a complaint whilst ignoring the more difficult bits, is a recognised method of complaints handling.

It's more of an answer than was given last month by his short-lived predecessor Kevin Foster, who seemed not to have been made aware that there was a problem with TPE.

Merriman has batted for this industry during his time as both a member and chair of Transport Select Committee so we ought to expect more of him but of course he has tread a narrow path of not showing his hand too much otherwise his masters won't be happy.

 

[Uzair]

I need to travel from London to Manchester Airport for work on 06/12/22. Journey is suggesting the 09:20 AWC from EUS to MAN, and then the 11:51 TPE from MAN to MIA. After reading several pages of this thread, I'm now considering taking the 09:10 AWS from EUS to Crewe, and then the 11:17 Northern service to MIA. A shame as I've never travelled on any TPE stock before!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I need to travel from London to Manchester Airport for work on 06/12/22. Journey is suggesting the 09:20 AWC from EUS to MAN, and then the 11:51 TPE from MAN to MIA. After reading several pages of this thread, I'm now considering taking the 09:10 AWS from EUS to Crewe, and then the 11:17 Northern service to MIA. A shame as I've never travelled on any TPE stock before!

I'd use LNR if you want to minimise the risk of cancellation, or stay the night at the airport.

 

[InkyScrolls]

A shame as I've never travelled on any TPE stock before!

They can, of course, be alright - if you're lucky. I had a connection at York (only as far as Leeds, so there were plenty of Northern options as contingency) and the TPE service arrived bob on time - a shame that isn't the norm!

 

[wellhouse]

Just wondering why TPE find it necessary or appropriate to still (23 November) express condolences on board (and being saddened) at the death of Queen Elizabeth II

 

[Carlisle]

Just wondering why TPE find it necessary or appropriate to still (23 November) express condolences on board (and being saddened) at the death of Queen Elizabeth II

I’m extremely encouraged, if that’s now a major concern TPE’s ability to run a reliable timetable must’ve improved remarkably in recent weeks.

 

[childwallblues]

I need to travel from London to Manchester Airport for work on 06/12/22. Journey is suggesting the 09:20 AWC from EUS to MAN, and then the 11:51 TPE from MAN to MIA. After reading several pages of this thread, I'm now considering taking the 09:10 AWS from EUS to Crewe, and then the 11:17 Northern service to MIA. A shame as I've never travelled on any TPE stock before!

Using the 1117 from Crewe to the Airport will man riding a 323 or more probably a 319 which may bring back memories of their days on Thameslink

 

[mike57]

I need to travel from London to Manchester Airport for work on 06/12/22. Journey is suggesting the 09:20 AWC from EUS to MAN, and then the 11:51 TPE from MAN to MIA. After reading several pages of this thread, I'm now considering taking the 09:10 AWS from EUS to Crewe, and then the 11:17 Northern service to MIA. A shame as I've never travelled on any TPE stock before!

I think the problem with TPE is that its a lottery at the moment, train could be cancelled the previous evening, or may just not turn up on the day. If you have to be at the airport by a certain time (catching a flight?) then given current unreliability (Avanti as well as TPE) I would make sure you allow plenty of time. If you can afford to be a little later (5-10 mins) arriving at the Airport, then catching the next Airport service from Pic is your option, looks like there are departures from Pic at 11:55 and 11:59 then a gap to 12:17. If you are buying advance tickets I would split my ticket, Advance London - Manchester, then open single/return from Pic to Airport, that way if TPE let you down you just get the next service with no arguement about ticket acceptance as at least 3 TOCs run to the Airport.

 

[oscarthecat92]

It was a bit of a shambles again this morning on the Leeds to Manchester route. 0815 to Liverpool Lime Street cancelled. The 0807 to Manchester Pic and 0845 to Manchester Airport were both only 3 coaches with hoardes waiting on platform 16. Gave up in the end and took the slower route with Northern, 0812 to Manchester Vic via Bradford, pretty impressed with the 4 coach 195, plenty of room, table to work at with the laptop and a more scenic journey.

 

[John Luxton]

Took my Club 55 trip to York yesterday and of course the 09:54 to Lime Street to York was cancelled. The chap in the info office at Lime Street was well prepared he just handed me an already printed alternative itinerary which was EMR 09:51 to Oxford Road and then 11:00 TPE from Oxford Road which was due to go to Redcar.

The 185 was fairly full fortunately there were a few first seats but two had reservation tickets and four people wanted to sit down. The buffet trolley attendant told us the passengers had not showed up at Manchester airport and they were available. Thus everyone sat down.

Just before Huddersfield the guard announced on the PA that the train was now cancelled beyond York due to "Late notice staff sickness". On leaving Hudderfield the unit was jammed full and remained so to York.

Arrived at 12:36 half an hour late.

Fortunately my late afternoon return run 16:49 return ran on time.

I have never bothered with delay repay before but I think I will on this one.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I woul, i always encourage my passengers to put a claim in. wether they do or not is another matter but people really should push their claims. Its the only way the company will listen is by hurting it in its paycheck

 

[John Luxton]

I woul, i always encourage my passengers to put a claim in. wether they do or not is another matter but people really should push their claims. Its the only way the company will listen is by hurting it in its paycheck

I have decided to submit a claim.

The TPE web site despite advising 20 day response time replied within half an hour and rejected my appeal

Journey Details:
Travel Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2022
Departing 09:51 from LIVERPOOL LIME STREET to YORK

Decision: Unsuccessful

We?re sorry you experienced a delay on one of our services. We?ve reviewed your claim and calculated there was no delay. Therefore, on this occasion no compensation is due.



We used the following information to calculate your delay:

The intended leg from 09:51 LIVERPOOL LIME STREET left on time, scheduled to arrive at MANCHESTER OXFORD ROAD at 10:37, actually arrived 10:39.

The intended leg from 11:00 MANCHESTER OXFORD ROAD left at 11:01, scheduled to arrive at YORK at 12:36, actually arrived 12:35.

Total journey delay: No delay - your intended arrival time was 12:36 and the calculated arrival time for your journey was 12:35.


I have appealed it as the digital ticket shows Liverpool 09:54 arrive York 12:04 - in my book York arrival was 31 minutes later than the booked itinerary. Also there was no first class on the Lime Street to Manchester leg of the journey as EMR are standard only.

 

[NorthWestRover]

I think you should have put the 09.54 train in as the start of your journey.

 

[John Luxton]

I think you should have put the 09.54 train in as the start of your journey.

It's the first time I have done a delay repay.

When I put my details in the 09:51 came up automatically - thus I presumed the system had detected my journey and I confirmed it.

As I had to attached the PDF copy of my digital ticket which clearly showed the train I was booked on I presumed that would confirm the 31 minute discrepancy between the booked arrival time and the actual arrival time.

Besides I had booked a TPE Club 55 ticket which is only available on TPE - would not normally be valid on an EMR train.

Anyway I have not had a response to the appeal in which I described the circumstances thus I presume a human rather than a machine will look at it?

 

[NorthWestRover]

I'm sure you'll get it. The machine has calculated that the departure at 09.51 led to an on time arrival. Of course, you were late on your planned itinerary.

 

[Kite159]

I'm sure you'll get it. The machine has calculated that the departure at 09.51 led to an on time arrival. Of course, you were late on your planned itinerary.

Until TPE start going down the route Northern use to reject delay repay claims by claiming the 09:54 train was cancelled the night before so no money is due

 

[trainophile]

This "night before" thing is a complete red herring. The only way they could justify not paying due to that is if you somehow managed to book a ticket AFTER the cancellation was published. They are breaking the terms of contract if they refuse to refund people who have bought their tickets days or weeks beforehand. Try getting away with that if a theatre show or music gig you have tickets for is cancelled the day before. It's automatic refund in those situations.

 

[jfollows]

The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...train-line-vastly-under-reports-cancellations) has spotted the game that TPE and others are playing with the "a train isn't cancelled if we cancel it before 10pm the day before" nonsense. Hopefully this will bring pressure to bear on TPE and others to stop this stupidity, although I'm not holding my breath.

Rail transport
Revealed: north of England train line vastly under-reports cancellations
TransPennine Express uses ‘outrageous’ loophole in which services cancelled a day ahead do not appear in statistics

Helen Pidd North of England editor
Sun 27 Nov 2022 13.33 GMT
One of the north of England’s main railway companies is taking advantage of an “outrageous” legal loophole that allows it to vastly under-report cancellations, it has emerged.
Figures obtained by the Guardian show that during the October half-term holiday, TransPennine Express (TPE) cancelled 30% of all trains, and at least 20% each subsequent week until 20 November. Most of those services were cancelled in full, but some started or ended at different stations from those advertised on the current May 2022 timetable.
TPE did not dispute these figures and apologised, blaming staff sickness, an intensive crew training programme and infrastructure issues outside its control.
Yet when it submits its performance statistics to the Office of Road and Rail (ORR), the government body that collates information about train reliability, TPE will report cancellations of between 5.6% and 11.8% for the same period (23 October to 20 November).
That is because the ORR allows companies to in effect ignore trains preemptively cancelled up to 10pm the night before. Such cancellations are known as “p-coded services”. These trains do not then appear in industry systems, count towards official figures or allow automatic delay repay claims.
The lower rate of cancellations reported to the ORR will relate purely to on-the-day cancellations. That does not take into account the disruption of passengers who have booked in advance – for example, someone who has booked a train to get to Manchester airport to catch a flight, or who gets off a plane late at night to find themselves stranded.
About 25% of all TPE trains to and from the airport have been cancelled since 7 September, according to airport management. Rail travel to the terminals had already nosedived over the summer as cancellations became more routine, with a 25% drop in people arriving by public transport between May and August.
“Despite having taken steps to improve the reliability of services to Manchester airport, dozens of trains are still being cancelled, or terminating prior to the airport, at short notice every day. This causes significant cost and inconvenience for passengers, at a time when they need it least,” said Chris Woodroofe, Manchester airport’s managing director.
Andy Burnham, the mayor of Greater Manchester, said that the p-code loophole “puts vested interests before the public interest. It’s outrageous, there’s no other word for it.”
He added: “People have lost trust in trains. If you are going to get a flight, to a match or to a gig, you can’t be sure you’ll get there or back and so there’s the insurance policy of the car. It’s really damaging for us as a city region.”
On Friday, the Greater Manchester combined authority agreed that if TPE and Avanti had not significantly reduced cancellations by its next meeting on 16 December, it would call on the government to strip both companies of their franchises.
Some 442 TransPennine services were fully or part-cancelled the night before travel in the seven days to 25 November, the Guardian calculated. A hundred of those were on the Manchester to Cleethorpes line, leaving the seaside resort particularly badly isolated.
A spokesperson for TransPennine Express said: “While our service delivery is not where we want it to be, there has been a reduction in the number of cancellations we have had to make in recent weeks, and providing as reliable a service as possible for customers remains our biggest priority.
“We are sorry to anyone who has been affected by this ongoing disruption. This has been caused by high levels of train crew sickness, an intensive crew training programme (which includes a training backlog as a direct result of Covid), and infrastructure issues outside of our control, which combined have seen a number of ‘on-the-day’ cancellations or cancellations made the night before.
“To keep customers informed we ensure these cancellations are shown in industry systems and any pre-planned cancellations are shared via our website each evening. Anyone who is affected by their train being cancelled can apply for a refund.”
An ORR spokesperson said: “Services properly cancelled prior to 22:00 the night before the service day are not part of the rail cancellation data. Such changes take place for a wide variety of reasons; this definition remains consistent with historic data.
“We are currently working through a project to quantify relevant changes to service provision, to add context to our future statistical releases.”

 

[Bertie the bus]

The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...train-line-vastly-under-reports-cancellations) has spotted the game that TPE and others are playing with the "a train isn't cancelled if we cancel it before 10pm the day before" nonsense. Hopefully this will bring pressure to bear on TPE and others to stop this stupidity, although I'm not holding my breath.

There was a report in a newspaper, possibly the MEN, a couple of weeks ago about councillors in Greater Manchester also cottoning on to what TPE are doing but it won't make any difference. The railway is a law unto itself and more often than not doesn't feel the need to justify itself or respond positively to anybody - passengers, politicians, the media or anybody else.

 

[jfollows]

There was a report in a newspaper, possibly the MEN, a couple of weeks ago about councillors in Greater Manchester also cottoning on to what TPE are doing but it won't make any difference. The railway is a law unto itself and more often than not doesn't feel the need to justify itself or respond positively to anybody - passengers, politicians, the media or anybody else.

I fear you're right.
It's like the waiting lists to get on the hospital waiting lists, it's just manipulation of figures to make things look better than they are.
In the end it'll get stopped, but not immediately, I predict.

 

[nr758123]

There was a report in a newspaper, possibly the MEN, a couple of weeks ago about councillors in Greater Manchester also cottoning on to what TPE are doing but it won't make any difference. The railway is a law unto itself and more often than not doesn't feel the need to justify itself or respond positively to anybody - passengers, politicians, the media or anybody else.

There's an earlier reference to P-coding in the agenda papers of the West Yorkshire Combined Authority Transport Committee on 14th October.

2.36 TPE cancellations continue to have a severe impact in West Yorkshire. Many of these are at short notice, made on the day or the evening before. The latter (known as ‘P-coded’ or planned cancellations if notified before 22:00 on the evening before) are currently not counted in the cancellation figures. The official cancellation figures therefore do not reflect the very poor passenger experience. Notification of any replacement buses is also usually late in the evening before or not until the actual morning, which has caused further passenger frustration.
2.37 On TPE, for the most recent period 5 (August), 21% of services were cancelled (approximately 16% were P-coded and 5% were same day cancellations). On Saturdays in the same period there was a total of 25% cancellations (approximately 20% were P-coded and 5% were same day cancellations).
2.38 TPE’s Manchester – Leeds – Hull services have been particularly badly affected by poor performance and P-coding, as have local stopping services between Manchester / Huddersfield / Leeds serving stations including Slaithwaite and Marsden, which rely on TPE for all their services. Cancellations have led to long gaps between services, sometimes of many hours, and severe crowding on services that do run, including impacts on Northern trains where these run routes alongside TPE.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I fear you're right.
It's like the waiting lists to get on the hospital waiting lists, it's just manipulation of figures to make things look better than they are.
In the end it'll get stopped, but not immediately, I predict.

It will also need the DfT to change their mind. At the moment, as they are picking up the bill, they are keen on P coding.

 

[mike57]

TPE (and Avanti) made the Radio 2 8 o'clock news this morning for their poor service. It may be a slow news day, but its the first time I've heard TPE mentioned in the short national news bulletins since the May 2018 meltdown. Followed by the usual rubbish (insert stronger word) about DfT working with them to improve things.

Probably linked to this on the BBC website: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63776464