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Transpennine woes and a moan...

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Mcr Warrior

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TPE (and Avanti) made the Radio 2 8 o'clock news this morning for their poor service. It may be a slow news day, but its the first time I've heard TPE mentioned in the short national news bulletins since the May 2018 meltdown. Followed by the usual rubbish (insert stronger word) about DfT working with them to improve things.

Probably linked to this on the BBC website: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63776464
Was also mentioned in a feature on 'BBC Radio 5 Live' in the second half of the finance programme aired between 5 a.m. and 6 a.m. this morning. The person interviewed was keen to make the point that TPE's poor performance has, perhaps, thus far largely gone under the wider media radar (as TPE don't serve London or the South East).

Also made the point that both TPE and Avanti are companies owned/controlled by the 'First' group.
 
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cuccir

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Any improvements from a few weeks ago seem to have been lost again by the way, certainly on the ECML services.
 

Iskra

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TPE (and Avanti) made the Radio 2 8 o'clock news this morning for their poor service. It may be a slow news day, but its the first time I've heard TPE mentioned in the short national news bulletins since the May 2018 meltdown. Followed by the usual rubbish (insert stronger word) about DfT working with them to improve things.

Probably linked to this on the BBC website: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63776464
Northern still getting off lightly it seems. A quick look at Sheffield on Sunday shows cancellations on the Hallam line again as well as Lincoln.

At least the issue is gaining traction in the media now, but I still think we’re a long way off from any decisive action or recovery.
 

D6130

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Was also mentioned in a feature on 'BBC Radio 5 Live' in the second half of the finance programme aired between 5 a.m. and 6 a.m. this morning. The person interviewed was keen to make the point that TPE's poor performance has, perhaps, thus far largely gone under the wider media radar (as TPE don't serve London or the South East).
Also featured in a full-length interview on BBC Radio 4's 'You and Yours' programme at lunchtime today, with Helen Pidd the Northern editor of the Guardian and Tony Miles of Modern Railways. The latter indicated that the current practice of refusing refunds and delay repay payments for services cancelled after 22 00 the previous night is now undergoing serious legal examination and that an announcement on this can be expected in the near future.
 

Bletchleyite

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Also featured in a full-length interview on BBC Radio 4's 'You and Yours' programme at lunchtime today, with Helen Pidd the Northern editor of the Guardian and Tony Miles of Modern Railways. The latter indicated that the current practice of refusing refunds and delay repay payments for services cancelled after 22 00 the previous night is now undergoing serious legal examination and that an announcement on this can be expected in the near future.

As full DR is contractual, I don't see why they couldn't do it for that provided that's what the contract states. Give or take I suppose whether the EU legislated minimum (which I think did make it into UK law) doesn't allow that, but it's much, much lower than the full DR payment.

Refunds (i.e. deciding not to travel due to a cancellation), on the other hand, come under other legislation, and could be challenged.
 

Watershed

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As full DR is contractual, I don't see why they couldn't do it for that provided that's what the contract states.
The issue is with the purported ability to vary the contract without notifying passengers, let alone with any reasonable length of advance notice.

They are effectively trying to make Delay Repay a discretionary scheme, but it is very difficult in a consumer contract for it to sit in that kind of no-mans-land.

It would be very interesting to see the discussions the DfT had about the new NRCoT.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The political tactics are clear.
Labour (Burnham) want to jump DfT into cancelling the TPE and Avanti contracts immediately, turning them over to state-owned OLR.
The Tories want TPE and Avanti to restore services from the new timetable and have given them several months to improve before considering cancellation (though it is threatened).
Whether the two TOCs are capable of doing that, either under FirstGroup or OLR control, is another story - Avanti claim all will be well from Dec 11...
Solving the strike situation would be a start.
 

Andyh82

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Northern still getting off lightly it seems. A quick look at Sheffield on Sunday shows cancellations on the Hallam line again as well as Lincoln.

At least the issue is gaining traction in the media now, but I still think we’re a long way off from any decisive action or recovery.
Actually in my opinion its the opposite - whenever the regional or national media ever talks trains in the north, they always focus on Northern, show footage of Northern, interview passengers of Northern, talk about pacers etc

Hence why Transpennine Express has always got away with it, as they have much more modern trains (even the 185s) and have fewer routes and passengers

Its similar why Crosscountry seems to fall under the radar compared with the Intercity operators that serve London
 

Bletchleyite

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Its all being discussed for an hour 1400 - 1500 today on LBC radio.

Fortunately I had to turn that off for a meeting. Shelagh Fogarty winds me up big-style at the best of times, with her "aahhh, little baby, it'll all be OK, sorry the nasty people did that to you" attitude to every even slightly upset caller without any effort to check their (usually incorrect) facts, and the part of the programme I heard contained relatively little in the way of facts, e.g. suggestions that Pacers were actually converted from buses, and that TPE operated any 2-car trains (which they haven't for years).

Yes, the railway is a mess at the moment, and yes, it stinks, but hey, stick to facts when broadcasting on public radio.

They need to put her up against Dean Dunham or Daniel Barnett who between them do the two legal call-in shows!
 

Solent&Wessex

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The political tactics are clear.
Labour (Burnham) want to jump DfT into cancelling the TPE and Avanti contracts immediately, turning them over to state-owned OLR.
The Tories want TPE and Avanti to restore services from the new timetable and have given them several months to improve before considering cancellation (though it is threatened).
Whether the two TOCs are capable of doing that, either under FirstGroup or OLR control, is another story - Avanti claim all will be well from Dec 11...
Solving the strike situation would be a start.

Due to the various rostering and other agreements, I cannot see any way at all that TPE would be able to restore the normal timetable without Rest Day Working by Drivers.

Until RDW returns - or there are changes to the rostering agreements - then I can see no way out, unless there was another big, massive, recruitment drive and you waited a couple of years for people to be trained, and you get to a point where more people are joining than leaving.
 

John Luxton

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Last week a commented on receiving what must have been an automated delay repay rejection from TPE.

This was following the cancellation of the 09:54 from Liverpool LS which resulted in a diversion via Manchester Oxford Road and a 31 minute late arrival at York.

I have just received an email informing me that I am due £18 refund on the first class club 55 ticket.
 

JD2168

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There was a report on BBC Look North this evening about a meeting in Manchester between Oliver Coppard, Tracy Brabin (whose train was cancelled so she had to catch the next one) & Mark Harper the Transport secretary about the ongoing problems on the routes.
 

SuperNova

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There was a report on BBC Look North this evening about a meeting in Manchester between Oliver Coppard, Tracy Brabin (whose train was cancelled so she had to catch the next one) & Mark Harper the Transport secretary about the ongoing problems on the routes.
And Brabin posting about a cancellation due to a fatality, isn't particularly a good look.
 

londonmidland

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A few alterations on the South route today:

TPE Planned Alterations 02/12/2022

South Route

1B59 03:25 Sheffield - Man Picc CAN
1B67 06:24 Cleethorpes - Man Picc CAN
1B71 08:24 Cleethorpes - Man Picc CAN
1B79 12:24 Cleethorpes - Man Picc CAN
1B85 15:24 Cleethorpes - Man Picc CAN
1B87 16:24 Cleethorpes - Man Picc CAN
1B89 17:24 Cleethorpes - Man Picc CAN

1B91 18:24 Cleethorpes- Man Picc TERM at SHF
1B93 19:24 Cleethorpes - Man Picc TERM at SHF

1B64 05:56 Man Air - Cleethorpes SRT Man Picc
1B72 10:18 Man Picc - Cleethorpes CAN
1B74 11:18 Man Picc - Cleethorpes CAN

1B82 15:18 Man Picc - Cleethorpes SRT at SHF
1B88 18:18 Man Picc - Cleethorpes CAN
1B90 19:18 Man Picc - Cleethorpes CAN

1B94 20:45 Man Air - Cleethorpes TERM at MAN
1B96 22:20 Man Picc - Doncaster CAN
 

Killingworth

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A few alterations on the South route today:

TPE Planned Alterations 02/12/2022

South Route

1B59 03:25 Sheffield - Man Picc CAN
1B67 06:24 Cleethorpes - Man Picc CAN
1B71 08:24 Cleethorpes - Man Picc CAN
1B79 12:24 Cleethorpes - Man Picc CAN
1B85 15:24 Cleethorpes - Man Picc CAN
1B87 16:24 Cleethorpes - Man Picc CAN
1B89 17:24 Cleethorpes - Man Picc CAN

1B91 18:24 Cleethorpes- Man Picc TERM at SHF
1B93 19:24 Cleethorpes - Man Picc TERM at SHF

1B64 05:56 Man Air - Cleethorpes SRT Man Picc
1B72 10:18 Man Picc - Cleethorpes CAN
1B74 11:18 Man Picc - Cleethorpes CAN

1B82 15:18 Man Picc - Cleethorpes SRT at SHF
1B88 18:18 Man Picc - Cleethorpes CAN
1B90 19:18 Man Picc - Cleethorpes CAN

1B94 20:45 Man Air - Cleethorpes TERM at MAN
1B96 22:20 Man Picc - Doncaster CAN

Looking at the core section between the two big cities of Manchester and Sheffield, where TPE are supposed to be running an hourly fast service, we see 9 trains going west and 10 going eaat. Assuming they all do run. About 50%.

No wonder Northern's trains on that part of the route are loading so well. Slow and cheap but youve a good chance of actually catching a train, although it's likely to be very full. Why book with TPE?

To get a seat, if it runs?
 

td97

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No wonder Northern's trains on that part of the route are loading so well.
For good chunks of the day Northern are the only operator given there's an EMR strike. At least they've put on extra carriages to make some services 5 or 6 carriages.
 

Tetchytyke

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There was a report in a newspaper, possibly the MEN, a couple of weeks ago about councillors in Greater Manchester also cottoning on to what TPE are doing but it won't make any difference.
The senior management of Manchester Airport have observed publicly that TPE have failed to run over 25% of their trains to the Airport, which has in turn seen a significant drop in people arriving at the airport by train.

There comes a point when it can't be ignored. I'd agree we're not there yet, amazingly not even with Avanti.

The problem is that the government quite like having First Group as the fall guy for what is ultimately government incompetence.
 

muz379

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The problem is that the government quite like having First Group as the fall guy for what is ultimately government incompetence.
Watching the response form junior transport minister Huw Merriman yesterday and during the debate it was brought up that Steve Montgomery the MD of FIrst Rail is also the chair of the RDG and one negotiating on behalf of the TOC's with the unions in the national rais dispute .

The comment made by the minister seemed to indicate that the government believed the issues apparently being caused by the unions at TPE & Avanti are some sort of conspiracy by the unions to show first group up .

Perhaos the government really backs first group and does just think they are victim of the unions .
 

43096

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The problem is that the government quite like having First Group as the fall guy for what is ultimately government incompetence.
That’s way too simplistic. Whilst there is government influence in the situation, there’s been a huge amount of utterly inept management by WorstGroup. The fact the MDs of both Avanti and TPE were fired is good evidence of that.
 

trainophile

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What have they got against Cleethorpes? Surely they could share out the cancellations a bit better. Is it a line that not many of their drivers sign, and if not why not?
 

Watershed

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What have they got against Cleethorpes? Surely they could share out the cancellations a bit better. Is it a line that not many of their drivers sign, and if not why not?
Unfortunately it doesn't quite work that way. Sheffield to Cleethorpes is only signed by Sheffield and Cleethorpes traincrew and it would be a significant undertaking for other depots (say, Liverpool or Manchester) to learn the route. There's already been a substantial amount of training undertaken for Manchester to learn to Sheffield, and Manchester, Liverpool and Sheffield to learn the CLC.

Even if there were other depots that signed Cleethorpes, with little in the way of goodwill from most traincrew at the moment, it would be difficult to move traincrew from one route to another - you can't force them to work outside their booked hours, and their booked hours might not fit very well with shifts that aren't covered.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I think, in reality, this government just wants its Scargill moment.

I fear they do, and that that will be at the expense of the public service.

Coal was different - the nation moved to cleaner electric and diesel railways and to gas central heating, all of which is vastly superior. Moving branch lines to buses* or nothing at all isn't superior.

* Buses could be superior, but this is the UK and we can't do buses properly.
 

Killingworth

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Unfortunately it doesn't quite work that way. Sheffield to Cleethorpes is only signed by Sheffield and Cleethorpes traincrew and it would be a significant undertaking for other depots (say, Liverpool or Manchester) to learn the route. There's already been a substantial amount of training undertaken for Manchester to learn to Sheffield, and Manchester, Liverpool and Sheffield to learn the CLC.

Even if there were other depots that signed Cleethorpes, with little in the way of goodwill from most traincrew at the moment, it would be difficult to move traincrew from one route to another - you can't force them to work outside their booked hours, and their booked hours might not fit very well with shifts that aren't covered.
The Cleethorpes-Sheffield section is doing little worse most days than Sheffield-Manchester.

Sheffield-Manchester has EMR and Northern as hourly back ups which is what makes the complaints from Cleethorpes more noticeable. South Pennine is currently dire from end to end.
 

Clarence Yard

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That’s way too simplistic. Whilst there is government influence in the situation, there’s been a huge amount of utterly inept management by WorstGroup. The fact the MDs of both Avanti and TPE were fired is good evidence of that.

I agree when it came to the appointments. The former MD at Avanti was a “good time guvnor” who couldn’t manage his team or his staff when times got rougher and the former MD at TPE should never, ever have been appointed to an MD’s role - he was totally unsuitable to be given that kind of position.

The problem for TPE now is they have a good MD but he hasn’t been given enough resources to sort out the problems in a timely fashion and the lack of a RDW agreement is piling the misery on.
 

43096

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The problem for TPE now is they have a good MD but he hasn’t been given enough resources to sort out the problems in a timely fashion and the lack of a RDW agreement is piling the misery on.
Agreed - and that’s where my bit about government influence applies (as a negative, as is standard for governments).
 
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