Transpennine woes and a moan...

[SuperNova]

TPE have had ample time to sort this and should be stripped of the mgt contract they are utterly failing the communities they purport to serve

But as has repeatedly been said on here, the blockers are DfT not TPE.

 

[Clarence Yard]

First at least shouldn't be permitted to profit from this debacle.

Why not? What bit of their contract with the DfT have they not complied with?

 

[dk1]

Thanks. I couldn't decide if it was late 90s or early 2000s, but I do know it was while I was at university.

Yes that happened in late 2000. Most areas where the at risk rail was used was reduced to 20mph. Caused chaos at a time when thousands where still visiting the Millenium Dome which is how I recall the year.

 

[Killingworth]

As it stands tonight although regular users know they have to constantly check timetables and apps to see which trains are likely to complete their full runs on the day.

Try working out quickly which trains you may find running between a pair of stations from this list for tomorrow. It's a hit and miss service, book at your peril. Some now showing as running probably won't.

Cancellations;

Manchester – Cleethorpes

0345 Sheffield – Manchester Airport
0521 Sheffield – Cleethorpes
0556 Manchester Airport – Cleethorpes
1624 Cleethorpes – Manchester Piccadilly
1918 Manchester Piccadilly – Cleethorpes
1924 Cleethorpes – Manchester Piccadilly
2024 Cleethorpes – Manchester Airport
2124 Cleethorpes – Sheffield
2220 Manchester Piccadilly – Doncaster
2330 Manchester Airport – Sheffield

The following services are being amended;

Manchester – Cleethorpes

0536 Doncaster – Manchester Piccadilly – Starts Sheffield
1618 Manchester Piccadilly – Cleethorpes –Terminates Sheffield
1718 Manchester Piccadilly – Cleethorpes – Terminates Sheffield
1724 Cleethorpes – Manchester Piccadilly – Starts Sheffield
1824 Cleethorpes – Manchester Piccadilly – Terminates Sheffield
2052 Manchester Airport – Cleethorpes – Terminates Manchester Piccadilly

*Further short-notice cancellations and amendments to services are likely throughout the day

Updated.

Surprise, surprise. 4 more cancellations this evening; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt&toc=TP

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why not? What bit of their contract with the DfT have they not complied with?

Doesn't their contract with the DfT require them to operate something approximating to the timetabled train service?

 

[DanNCL]

But as has repeatedly been said on here, the blockers are DfT not TPE.

Why not? What bit of their contract with the DfT have they not complied with?

It's both. The DFT aren't helping matters to put it mildly, but TPE is also mismanaged and has been for a long time.

 

[SuperNova]

It's both. The DFT aren't helping matters to put it mildly, but TPE is also mismanaged and has been for a long time.

What would change if it was OLR? Answer: Nothing.

 

[DanNCL]

What would change if it was OLR? Answer: Nothing.

Not neccesarily. LNER isn't mismanaged, or at least if it is then not to anywhere near the extent that TPE is. Not all issues are down to the DFT.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Doesn't their contract with the DfT require them to operate something approximating to the timetabled train service?

Yes, the one that is timetabled at 2200 the previous day. They get more in fees for co-operating with NR/DfT and keeping to the DfT budget than they do for running a service or satisfying the punters.

It’s a complete racket.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Doesn't their contract with the DfT require them to operate something approximating to the timetabled train service?

Seemingly not they are worse than Northern before they were taken over. OLR didn't need to takeover SE that was done for political reasons and the resources would have been deployed to where "last resort" is true reflection of the state of the service ie TPE

 

[Clarence Yard]

Not neccesarily. LNER isn't mismanaged, or at least if it is then not to anywhere near the extent that TPE is. Not all issues are down to the DFT.

Where is the current mismanagement with TPE? We know of the historical issues but what has the current top management got wrong, given the current IR and DfT issues?

 

[DanNCL]

Where is the current mismanagement with TPE? We know of the historical issues but what has the current top management got wrong, given the current IR and DfT issues?

Read back through this thread and you’ll see multiple reports of services being cancelled at TPE’s discretion despite the crews all being available.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Read back through this thread and you’ll see multiple reports of services being cancelled at TPE’s discretion despite the crews all being available.

I’ve read it and, as stated earlier, the problem here is that crews are not available for the whole of that units diagram day. If they are not available that unit diagram gets binned.

What NR and the DfT don’t want is stranded units clogging up the network or stranded passengers having to be shifted at short notice. So the “modern” way of dealing with this on todays railway is binning off services early if the job is likely to be uncovered. This doesn’t only apply to TPE. So the result here is you get train crew sitting in mess rooms and units sitting on depot because of staff shortages elsewhere.

If you have over optimised your diagram structure (i.e. frequently changing crew), the more likely you are going to cancel if you are short. It may only take one driver or conductor being short to cause this to happen. The way out of this is to employ more staff to unpick the idiotically optimised diagrams. Now who authorises this?

 

[DanNCL]

I’ve read it and, as stated earlier, the problem here is that crews are not available for the whole of that units diagram day. If they are not available that unit diagram gets binned.

What NR and the DfT don’t want is stranded units clogging up the network or stranded passengers having to be shifted at short notice. So the “modern” way of dealing with this on todays railway is binning off services early if the job is likely to be uncovered. This doesn’t only apply to TPE. So the result here is you get train crew sitting in mess rooms and units sitting on depot because of staff shortages elsewhere.

If you have over optimised your diagram structure (i.e. frequently changing crew), the more likely you are going to cancel if you are short. It may only take one driver or conductor being short to cause this to happen. The way out of this is to employ more staff to unpick the idiotically optimised diagrams. Now who authorises this?

And who put the over optimised diagrams there in the first place? (pardon the pun!)

TPE aren’t innocent in this.

 

[SuperNova]

And who put the over optimised diagrams there in the first place? (pardon the pun!)

TPE aren’t innocent in this.

Which is also historic. You're taking anecdotes as gospel truth without understanding what happens further down the line. Simply put, the wider industry doesn't want units dumped in platforms in stations blocking paths.

Not neccesarily. LNER isn't mismanaged, or at least if it is then not to anywhere near the extent that TPE is. Not all issues are down to the DFT.

LNER are now cancelling services the night before.

And yes: the issues do lie with the DfT, as the service worked swimmingly until rest day working agreements ended.

So again, what would change? Nothing.

 

[Clarence Yard]

And who put the over optimised diagrams there in the first place? (pardon the pun!)

TPE aren’t innocent in this.

Of course they aren’t but it is all historic.

The franchises were terminated, the Government took over and money changed hands to do so. So it became the Governments problem at no future cost or liability to the Owning Groups.

Whether we liked it or not, that’s the position.

 

[DanNCL]

You're taking anecdotes as gospel truth without understanding what happens further down the line.

So you think TPE employees are making up sitting in mess rooms whilst trains are cancelled then? As that's what you seem to be implying.

LNER are now cancelling services the night before.

And yes: the issues do lie with the DfT, as the service worked swimmingly until rest day working agreements ended.

So again, what would change? Nothing.

Yes, but not when there's crew available to run them. LNER don't have crew sat in mess rooms whilst services are cancelled - TPE do. LNER make an active effort to rework diagrams around crew availability on a daily basis to avoid having to cancel entire diagrams - TPE don't. That's the difference.

I didn't say the DFT were blameless far from it. But they're not the sole problem.

The franchises were terminated, the Government took over and money changed hands to do so. So it became the Governments problem at no future cost or liability to the Owning Groups.

Well, yes. I think we're all agreed that the current way of doing things is terrible.

 

[Clarence Yard]

LNER don't have crew sat in mess rooms whilst services are cancelled - TPE do. LNER make an active effort to rework diagrams around crew availability on a daily basis to avoid having to cancel entire diagrams - TPE don't. That's the difference.

Totally different diagram structure - that’s the difference. Much easier to recover on LNER.

Which is why over optimistic diagramming is a mugs game because if you are short or it goes wrong, you are up that certain creek without a paddle in next to no time. Add in an IR dispute which makes some staff understandably less willing to change their diagrams on the day and it quickly becomes a total mess.

Which is why it is thought preferable to bin off, even it means some crews sit in the cabin when they could be out working part of a diagram.

 

[SuperNova]

So you think TPE employees are making up sitting in mess rooms whilst trains are cancelled then? As that's what you seem to be implying.

Did you read my reply? Or have you chosen to completely ignore it?

Just because, say Newcastle depot, has the staff to begin a service doesn't mean the staff at a change over point are available. And signallers and the wider industry do not want trains being dumped in platforms with nobody able to move them. One anecdote from one person at one depot does not give the overall picture.

LNER don't have crew sat in mess rooms whilst services are cancelled.

Bold claim, any evidence to support it?

I didn't say the DFT were blameless far from it. But they're not the sole problem.

But they are. If RDW was in place, would there be the issues being seen currently? No.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

So perhaps maybe if newccastle crews signed all the way through to Liverpool or manchester airport like we used to do until fairly recently and liverpool crews signed the route all the way through to Newcastle and worked the train through and back rather than handing over to a york crew at York, who then hands over to a manchester crew at Leeds who then handover to a liverpool crew at Man Vicc then maybe both Newcastle and Liverpool would be able to cross cover and filll in the missing gaps and keep the service running….. like we used to!

that calder valley diversion was very useful for keeping the job moving when things went belly up, as was normanton (as proved only last week) but they have all been taken off my card. Just lost all 185 work so potentially losing traction knowledge too. Another managerial decision Merely exacerbating the very problem we keep highlighting and this is down to the decisions of the company’s current, not historical management!

 

[DanNCL]

Totally different diagram structure - that’s the difference. Much easier to recover on LNER.

Which is why over optimistic diagramming is a mugs game because if you are short or it goes wrong, you are up that certain creek without a paddle in next to no time. Add in an IR dispute which makes some staff understandably less willing to change their diagrams on the day and it quickly becomes a total mess.

Which is why it is thought preferable to bin off, even it means some crews sit in the cabin when they could be out working part of a diagram.

Crew diagrams yes but stock diagrams if anything are actually more restrictive on LNER, as they have more sub fleets than TPE do (5 on LNER all interwork to some extent vs 4 on TPE of which one is almost entirely self contained). LNER can (and do) still end up with stock taking up valuable platform space for hours on end as a result of the cancellations.

Did you read my reply? Or have you chosen to completely ignore it?

Just because, say Newcastle depot, has the staff to begin a service doesn't mean the staff at a change over point are available. And signallers and the wider industry do not want trains being dumped in platforms with nobody able to move them. One anecdote from one person at one depot does not give the overall picture.

Yes I read it, and I've just reread it to ensure I hadn't missed anything (which I hadn't). What you are saying does not change the fact that some operators are much more willing to work around these restrictions than TPE are. LNER have been dumping stock in platforms for hours on end with nobody to move them, but somehow when it's LNER doing it it's suddenly not considered a problem.

I'm not just going off 'one anecdote from one person at one depot', although that's all I can reference here. I've heard the same story from several others at TPE off the forum too. They have no reason to lie.

Bold claim, any evidence to support it?

Any evidence to suggest otherwise?

But they are. If RDW was in place, would there be the issues being seen currently? No.

Not to the same extent but there would still be issues yes. We have seen time and time again that TPE are incapable of running their promised timetable, with or without RDW.

Just lost all 185 work so potentially losing traction knowledge too. Another managerial decision Merely exacerbating the very problem we keep highlighting and this is down to the decisions of the company’s current, not historical management!

So the poor management decisions that others are saying are historical are in fact still being made then!

Although OLR wouldn't solve the traction knowledge issue - LNER would have on several occasions have found things easier during disruption if their Newcastle crews had retained 91+Mark 4 sets on their traction cards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you have over optimised your diagram structure (i.e. frequently changing crew), the more likely you are going to cancel if you are short. It may only take one driver or conductor being short to cause this to happen. The way out of this is to employ more staff to unpick the idiotically optimised diagrams. Now who authorises this?

Or you operate a reduced emergency timetable with those simplified diagrams and the staff you have.

 

[DanNCL]

Or you operate a reduced emergency timetable with those simplified diagrams and the staff you have.

TPE's timetable is already significantly reduced from what it was pre covid. An emergency timetable for TPE would basically be bin the entire lot.

 

[Narrowgauge725]

To quote a driver on York platform yesterday “the problem is they keep cancelling random trains that we have staff for”. Platform full to bursting after 6 car train cancelled and what comes in a 3 car! Went and got on a slow via Harrogate train to Leeds to avoid being crushed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TPE's timetable is already significantly reduced from what it was pre covid. An emergency timetable for TPE would basically be bin the entire lot.

I don't agree.

Further discussion here:

As per Avanti, how could TPE's service be reduced so it is operable reliably?

TPE's timetable is already significantly reduced from what it was pre covid. An emergency timetable for TPE would basically be bin the entire lot. I just don't think that is true. Dec has the following (both ways) I believe: 1tph Liverpool-Newcastle 1tph Liverpool-Hull 1tph Manchester...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[XAM2175]

To quote a driver on York platform yesterday “the problem is they keep cancelling random trains that we have staff for”. Platform full to bursting after 6 car train cancelled and what comes in a 3 car! Went and got on a slow via Harrogate train to Leeds to avoid being crushed.

The core issue of the of the excessively-optimised problem, as already described in this thread, is that those "random" trains can have staff available at the time the observation is made, but be missing cover later in the diagram - so cancelling them at the beginning is seen as less disruptive to the network overall.

 

[mike57]

The core issue of the of the excessively-optimised problem, as already described in this thread, is that those "random" trains can have staff available at the time the observation is made, but be missing cover later in the diagram - so cancelling them at the beginning is seen as less disruptive to the network overall.

Which in turn is down to decisions made on route knowledge and operations which are surely TPE decisions. The cynic in me would say TPE have maximised profit over network resiliance, and being even more cynical TPE thinking is 'We know we will get the boot sooner or later, lets bleed it for everything we can'

 

[ic31420]

Tpe is in my view in it's current for dead.

It needs urgent simplification.

We need to go back to when it worked with just the 185s, essentially go back to those routes, times and staffing. Then build up add capacity by doubling up the 185s and using 802s to fill the gap.

I'm not quite sure what the idea of the essentially 397 service was, thats a distraction and should sit either with northern a premier express service or with the WCML operator, or at a push XC. Hell even get Yewert (sp?) In to run them as Grand North Western Manc Express

The 68s and stock are currently a distraction. As much as I love them they're an added complexity in the already bonkers fleet.

Once the core transpennine stuff is sorted, staffed and working well, we can look at introducing the nice to haves and increased frequency.

Yes this will lead to service cuts yes it will be unpopular, but I'd rather know my 1 tph or 1 tp2h has a good chance of running as opposed to the current lottery. The current shambolic bedlam is even more unpopular.

I would like to travel Manc to York in the next few weeks, however with a child in tow TPE is just not a sensible proposal. I'll be driving.

That really saddens me.


TPE needs to stop trying to be all things to all men and deliver a good core transpennine service.

I suppose the fleet issue which then causes crewing issues boils down to the dft not letting enough 185s or centre cars be ordered 15 years ago. It's a shame they wasn't DEMU bimodes

 

[Bletchleyite]

The WCML service was moved to TPE from XC as part of their need to stabilise their service. It had also at one point I believe been briefly run by Virgin West Coast.

 

[D6130]

It had also at one point I believe been briefly run by Virgin West Coast.

Yes....using hired-in 158s.